View Full Version : Duratec General Discussion
Robscort
21-09-2006, 22:11
I am beginning this thread to serve as a general technical discussion of the Duratec engine. Perhaps we could discuss what modifications are required to make a given amount of power and what's required to install the engine to various vehicles, etc. With all due respect to everyone on the board, I would like to avoid the Duratec v. other engine debates.
Kind Regards,
Robscort
Note from graham bahr,
too many of the threads are wandering all over the shop and turning into something of a slanging match, i propose to keep this one nice and on track by deleteing posts which dont strictly apply
standard engines with the cam timing tweeked make 185 bhp and 150 ibls feet of torque . More power than this needs cam changes and any engine making over 200 bhp needs the rods changed for steel aftermarket ones as the originals are rubbish . They have oil feed problems with the shallow wet sumps needed for escort installations so really need a dry sump system fitted to be reliable . Standard cranks are ok up to 250 bhp but after that everything needs changing , even the top end components . Info as confirmed by the top engine boffin at cosworth . :thumb:
RChambers
21-09-2006, 23:04
The shallow wet sumps there were referring to were for kit car applications. On an Escort you can have a sump with a bowl so you won't have the same problems :thumb:
I believe the Cosworth Man (TM) said 260bhp is:
Standard engine
Mild head work (I take this to mean cleaning up the ports slightly)
Steel rods
Cams
Uprated cam springs
Oh and all the induction and ecu stuff to make it run of course :D
Installation:
Engine mounts to WCXM or standard crossmember are gonna be in the region of £70 from Burton or Retro Ford
Sump:
Dry sump is about £800 the kit
Wet sump from new MX5 should work in Escort as its rear bowl, will be cheap
Wet sump solution from Retro Ford will be coming soon and will be under £200 most probably (in line with zetec sumps).
Bellhousings to bolt to various gearboxes are available for around £200 or the mx5 6 speed is a possibility although not confirmed as suitable yet.
Water rail will probably be needed to give bulkhead clearance at £185.
ECU solutions range from very cheap modded skoda ECU's from Clint right up to pro after market ECU's like Emerald, Omex, DTA etc. Costs from £20 - £1000ish (average £600)
Throttle bodies will be needed at a cost of around £500-600 or you can get motorbike ones on a manifold for about £300. Original inlet system and single throttle body, not sure if it will fit in RWD car.
Exhaust manifolds:
????
Matt's duratec install is one to watch for a sensible budget, or the one Gary is building for the ultimate. Should be interesting to see some of these cars out and about soon :banana:
cortina-mk1
22-09-2006, 08:04
ive seen a lot of 'race engine' pictures with dry sumps etc...
but what does a factory sump for a street car install look like ?
or.. where is the oil pump pickup in a duratec?
front or rear?
graham bahr
22-09-2006, 08:52
i have no experience of the duratec, but i do know dave walker well and he has mapped loads, in his words, the heads are excellent so good you can port them with your eyes closed.
std 2.0 on TB's will make 180-185bhp and 150lbft, you can tweek the cam timing to get a fraction more, BUT this engine is very tight on valve/ piston clearance.
without further modification the 2.3 isn't much better, but with simple porting and fast road cams he described the 2.3 as being awesome saying it will make 260bhp
Phil01825
22-09-2006, 09:28
i have no experience of the duratec, but i do know dave walker well and he has mapped loads, in his words, the heads are excellent so good you can port them with your eyes closed.
std 2.0 on TB's will make 180-185bhp and 150lbft, you can tweek the cam timing to get a fraction more, BUT this engine is very tight on valve/ piston clearance.
without further modification the 2.3 isn't much better, but with simple porting and fast road cams he described the 2.3 as being awesome saying it will make 260bhp
Graham have you asked Dave about the Rod issues raised. Are any of the engines he's worked keeping the standard rods beyond 200bhp and has he had any feed back on these standard rod engines, if there are any out there?
The standard rods a Sintered Porous Metal type with a cracked cap.
The rod is cast in one part then the end cap is broken off creating a
unique cap for each rod. While they may be fine in the area around 200hp,
it's cheap insurance to change them for anything above that. It's really not
an HP issue but more an RPM issue. 7100rpm is about it for safe operation.
So to recap the basic 250-260 build,
12:1 pistons
Forged Rods
282 cams w +11mm lift
Valve springs
and some type of induction system.
It also seems that most of the 2.3L engines imported into the UK are the
Ranger Engine. That paticular head will require more porting than the head found on the 2.3L USA Focus and 2.0L UK Focus. We use the 2.3L USA Focus head as the base for all of our builds. The Ranger head features a restriction directly in front of the valve to increase torque.
The Ranger style crank is safe to about 7700rpm.
Ken
graham bahr
22-09-2006, 19:17
Graham have you asked Dave about the Rod issues raised. Are any of the engines he's worked keeping the standard rods beyond 200bhp and has he had any feed back on these standard rod engines, if there are any out there?
no but i will, i had not heard of the weak rod issues until after my conversation with dave, he certainly didnt mention any weaknesses but then again we didnt get time t o have a deep and meaningfull disgussion,
what i did hear on a seperate occassion was talk of timing chain tensioner issues which no one on here has mentioned
graham bahr
22-09-2006, 19:43
i have just deleted gaz's post because it added or asked nothing factual to the thread,
everyone including gaz is welcome to post here but PLEASE make it relavent and have some actual technical interst or question
alright then , how long do you think a standard bottom end will last at 260 bhp ? :tumblewee ..............:thumb:
graham bahr
22-09-2006, 20:00
i dont know gaz, but id like to find out, but if an engine with a near std top end will make such big power it really does say a lot for the engine, it may well be that such a big power figure does put the engine close to destruction rpm, but wouldnt it be nice to know that if revs were held doen a bit so you only had 230bhp it would hold together.
what i'd like to see is a thread which someone can have a quick read of and gain some info rather than spend 2 hours reading pointless banter only to find there wasnt any info
I would imagine they would last reasonably well, the only reason 240+ pinto and N/A Cossies crack blocks at around 10k miles is the large bore sizes and high revs they require to produce the power, as the Duratecs arnt reving that high and the bores are not massivly oversized they should last very well.
Phil01825
22-09-2006, 21:31
I seem to remember reading in the Classic Ford mag a while back that the rods were safe to 200bhp and could maybe go to 220bhp.
Aren't Burton's Farndon Rods about £175 each. Not too expensive + a set of cams for 250bhp.
graham bahr
22-09-2006, 21:43
i'm still struggling with the idea that the rods will only cope with certain power levels unless your talking forced induction its normally only revs which cause rods to fail, can anyone put rpm figs to the peak power points to try and explain it
i'm still struggling with the idea that the rods will only cope with certain power levels unless your talking forced induction its normally only revs which cause rods to fail, can anyone put rpm figs to the peak power points to try and explain it
I actually did mention the RPM above.Again, it's about 7100RPM. The fact is to gain more power than approx 200-210, you will need to spin it higher.
Ken
Robscort
22-09-2006, 22:12
Opinion/speculation:
I suspect the Duratec will soon become a fairly affordable option. My guess is the affordable hot street setup will look something like:
Standard bottom end (aside from rods)
Standard head
Cams
Bike throttle bodies
Header (no commercial solution available yet. Maybe MX5?)
Megasquirt or some other affordable EFI solution (which I'm using today and am very happy with)
Ford EDIS ignition (which all bolts right on)
Motor mounts from Burton or Retro Ford
Wet sump from Retro Ford (sounds like they're working on it now?)
Type 9 gearbox with bell housing
Water rail from Retro Ford or maybe a Ranger or MX5?
My guess is that it will make at least 230 - 240 bhp reliably which for me is plenty. I don't see anything in the list that would be too expensive for me either.
Ken could we sort out a Turbosport members Discount at Cosworths ?
They won't believe you ken :dunno: . I've been telling them for months !!!!!!! :thumb:
Robscort
Just out of interest, why are you saying Bike Bodies rather than something like Titan Motorsports Direct To Head Roller Barrells.
Surely if you are looking for performance that is the way to go rather than throttle bodies that are meant for a bike engine with 50% less capacity (in most cases)
Ken could we sort out a Turbosport members Discount at Cosworths ?
Would you not be better off talking to Dave at Retro Ford about a TurboSport Group Buy as he's the fella doing all the bits to actually get one of these things in an Escort (and an Anglia ;) )
After all he seems to be the only man with one on the street.
Would you not be better off talking to Dave at Retro Ford about a TurboSport Group Buy as he's the fella doing all the bits to actually get one of these things in an Escort (and an Anglia ;) )
After all he seems to be the only man with one on the street.
Fook that - discount on all available products for TS members!:thumb:
graham bahr
23-09-2006, 07:30
Robscort
Just out of interest, why are you saying Bike Bodies rather than something like Titan Motorsports Direct To Head Roller Barrells.
Surely if you are looking for performance that is the way to go rather than throttle bodies that are meant for a bike engine with 50% less capacity (in most cases)
arrh yes but you forget rpm, a 1000cc bike engine @ 14,000 rpm will consume approximately the same amount of air as a 2000cc car engine @ 7,000, and as most bikes are tuned for absolute power without a huge consideration for bottom end torque bike bodies are sized rather on the large side for any given capacity which is why bike bodies off a 750 can be easily big enough to supply a 2000cc car engine
Robscort
23-09-2006, 07:44
neilm, I was really just trying to provide the least expensive options across the board since cost appears to be a major concern for some. Here in the US bike bodies are almost free, and are therefore becoming a popular low-cost induction option. I have a set in the garage which I believe are somewhere in the 40mm - 45mm range. That should be sufficient to make 200+ bhp. In my case, however, I'll probably use either the Cosworth or Titan roller barrels just because they're so damn cool!
Kind Regards,
Robscort
Robscort
Just out of interest, why are you saying Bike Bodies rather than something like Titan Motorsports Direct To Head Roller Barrells.
Surely if you are looking for performance that is the way to go rather than throttle bodies that are meant for a bike engine with 50% less capacity (in most cases)
boombang
23-09-2006, 08:20
There is a lot more to supplying air + fuel than a given bore of body or what it can supply to a much smaller engine at higher revs.
As said a 1 litre bike may rev to 14k which is tuned for absolute power - to me that immediately springs to mind a very short body which again is usually true - and length is immensely important in generating driveable torque. From what I have a seen in a lot of bike body on car engine applications this is lacking and the gains aren't great (with exceptions - the TU Peugeot engines where port spacing isn't great on the inlet and with inlet at rear there is little room for length - bike bodies "look" like they perform really well compared to DCOE pattern purely as there isn't enough length to get a smooth transition from DCOE shaped bodies to head so drops power. Bike bodies on this are often significantly more direct so gain power - but put a 106 rallye manifold on the smaller TU's and it in fact can flow even better. The 106 Gti inlet is also VERY good and on the works cars the throttle bodies actually went through the scuttle panel and ran an airbox in the section below the screen that the wipers run it!)
graham bahr
23-09-2006, 08:33
the length of the actual body itself is relativly un important, its the overal inlet tract length thats important and you can vary that with the manifold or trumpeting.
were wandering a bit here,
the main thing is that for anything other than possibly a full race set up bike throttle bodies will do a perfectly good job of supply the air flow needs of a duratec, just look at the k series that will go to 250bhp on a 42mm body
Retromotorsport
23-09-2006, 09:27
To instal a Duratec....
get engine and ecu.. couple of hundred
cut the rad panel and move rad forward, free or a 100-200
make or buy some mounts... free to 100 tops
buy a rattle can to make good round the rad panel £7
bolt it in with your old type9
give it a power supply ..free or £35 auto electrician
make a connection between the exhausts pieces.. free or a 100 tops
fire it up and away you go ..
Free or £642 tops
For a 130+bhp
next year some cams and rods and TBs .. 3k.4k ... for 260 ish bhp...
All the above are estimates.. and not quotes..
But Matt hasnt done any body mods to his car, the sumps are about the same depth due to the ADVANCED design of Duratec, ie the crank isnt pushing oil around the sump, so no need for a dry sump... get an Accusump for 200 quid for protection
Now to Fit the engine with mods... Bulkhead, engine mounts, Gp 4 rad cut, and T5 gearbox tunnel with mount and fancy T5 gaitor surround* ... = £820
And that is a quote (correct at time of posting)
That the chassis work to fit the engine low and back with a T5
the engine need a dry sump... 1000?
TBs and headwork 3k.
So for around 5k we have a low and back CofG engine with a T5 box all fitted for around 5K and putting out 250+bhp... life of engine ... thousands of miles as basicly its still standard , not highly strung.
I personally can see why people are waking up to this engine ... its got bang for buck ..£20 / Hp
Well i'm still going for a 100% standard 2.0 engine (apart from induction and sump) even down to the mondeo exhaust manifold.
When its in and running i will post ALL rolling road figures and any tweeks we do to the engine.
The reason i'm going duratec:thinking:
Seen enough YB's/pinto's/x flows and thought this would be different.
Would of gone zetec but a duratec came up at the right price:thumb:
If i can get 180bhp+ from a standard engine(all day long) i will be well chuffed:woohoo:
I'm already saving weight over every other engine except the x flow but we all no 180 in one of them is rare and V exspensive.
I dont no how much truth there is in the "upsets the handling" that people qoute about the heavier engines, either way my install doesn't appear to be that far forward(the gear bx is positioned in the same place as the x flow)
You can follow the install here:thumb:
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=108535
I've heared a whisper that the standard duratec pistons are also cracking if engine gets too hot :clint: , can the man from cosworths shed any light on this one please or do they always change the pistons as well on performance upgrades . :thumb:
RChambers
25-09-2006, 09:33
195bhp Specifications :
Maximum Power is 195 bhp @ 7,200 rpm
Maximum Torque is 165lbs.ft. at 5,200 rpm
This is what Minister Power get from a completely internally standard 2 litre duratec. Matts should be brilliant if he can get close to that!
RChambers
25-09-2006, 09:57
Oh and I've seen a power figure of 183bhp using standard inlet and exhaust manifolds just changing the engine managment. Looks like Matts should be somewhere inbetween :gary:
davejupp
25-09-2006, 18:28
Just a quick one when to fit my prop and box at the weekend and the mounts sit about 30cm to far forward, do i need to cut them out and move them back? or am i just being thick:confused:
ps sump now at the fabricators should be back at the weekend ill post some photos!
Hi all dunno if its of any help but i can provide the latest mx-5 sump for the duratec, its 210 approx inc VAT plus delivery pm if ya interested, it would be approx 3-4 weeks for delivery
Patrick
Any pics?
not realy i could only get pics if someone ordered one, or i can take one of it in a car if thats any help
Patrick
Yeah dont need one myself but would be interested in seing one :thumb:
Would be a good cheap option for anyone not wanting to go down the dry sump route.
Robscort
25-09-2006, 21:24
Yeah, I'd love to see one, even if it was in a car. It might give a basic idea whether it will work in an Escort. Some rough measurements might be good too if you can swing that. Depth probably being the most important.
Hmmmm... While you're crawling under there snapping pictures of the sump, a few shots of the gearbox might be helpful too. Of course I don't want to impose so anything you can do would be helpful.
no problem will measure and photo when i can
Patrick
cr500dom
26-09-2006, 13:39
The rods are not the weak point in the bottom end on the 2.3
Its the Crank ;)
7600 is absolute maximum, if you want to spin it faster (Which you will to get up over 260hp) then you need a new crank.
The Ranger Bottom end does have some benefits over NAS Focus, the Timing chain and oil pump drive are Heavier duty and there is no balancer shaft ;)
The NAS Focus head is the Hi-flow head though which is better for power.
The porting needed on that is really minimal :thumb:
The Ideal Donor engine (If you can find one) is the CNG Ranger version, as this has the decent bottom end but with the hi-flow head :dance:
Roller barrel throttles are fantastic for Driveability and power, the Cosworth ones are much much better than the Titan/Caterham ones as well in terms of fit and finish, just a nicer alround design.
Exhaust manifolds and runner lengths are critical to good power on the duratech too:dance: have a measure up of a Caterham CSR260 for a very very good starting point :D
For the doubters about this engine, we did a Fully Euro 4 emmissions Compliant 200hp 2.3 Duratech for Caterham, which also passed the noise tests as well :banana: And that was with very few Trick bits, plenum intake manifold, cams and decent calibration :dance:
It is the way to go......
HTH
Dom
graham bahr
26-09-2006, 14:21
just for those who arent in the know, can you explain what you mean by NAS and CNG are you talking engine codes?
cr500dom
26-09-2006, 14:40
just for those who arent in the know, can you explain what you mean by NAS and CNG are you talking engine codes?
Sorry,
NAS = North American Spec, they got the 2.3 as standard in the Focus
CNG = Compressed Natural Gas, there was a "Duel fuel" type derivative, designed to run predominantly on CNG, in volume production but not as common as the Standard 2.3 Ranger Lumps.
Ranger engine, ex Detroit was something silly like $1200 complete :eek:
Just didnt have the cash at the time for a Container load :thinking: :stu:
HTH
Dom
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