Pinto nearly runs

[wildo105e]

I have nearly got the pinto started. On the MS I have been upping the cranking pw and finally got some back fires etc etc. I then found that i had plugs 1 and 4 mixed up on the coil pack (will it make a difference on wasted spark) and i may have had a broken plug in nr 3 (don't ask it's the second one i have snapped). I need to check that i am getting 10deg BTDC to ensure the timing is right.

What i need to know from anyone is a reasonable set of cranking PW figures and maybe some start enrichment figures for a pinto as with all my probs i think i am probally way to high now and flooding the engine.

Thanks in advance

:thumb:

[alladdin]

hi, what spec pinto ? my mates 3/4 the way to ms his.
what firmware you using ? msnse? edis?
the coil pack is 2 coils. if 1 and 4 are off different coils it will (i think:thinking:) make a difference even on wasted spark.:thumb:

[wildo105e]

HI Alladdin,

The pinto is bog standard using the usual injection plenum. I have ms extra 1 code 029t if that sounds right. I have it running a ford coil pack direct from the MS. I think my problem was i had other faults and i kept upping the fuel to see if it would start and have gone way to far. I really need to know what a reasonable figure would be and if it won't start around that then i have other faults:confused:

[andrewr]

hi, what spec pinto ? my mates 3/4 the way to ms his.
what firmware you using ? msnse? edis?
the coil pack is 2 coils. if 1 and 4 are off different coils it will (i think:thinking:) make a difference even on wasted spark.:thumb:

On a pinto firing order is 1-3-4-2, so you group 1-4, and 2-3. So it doesn't matter if you switch 1 and 4.

Heres my crank pws, if it doesn't fire I'd guess something else is wrong. Check timing, sensors etc. good luck!

http://classicford.mine.nu/forum/uploaded/andrew/20082423431_ms.JPG
Cheers
Andrew

[wildo105e]

Thanks very much for that. I can now get back to real numbers then at 4c I had 20 ms as i kept upping it. As i have never done this before you don't know if it is your config or a real physical problem.

I am going to check the timing tonight hopefully to eliminate this aswell.

Watch this space:thumb:

[wildo105e]

Sorry not started yet. But i had one of those thoughts last night:drool:. I was watching the realtime display when cranking the engine. I assume the rpm should be around a constant 200rpm and the slider bar should stay blue. I seem to recall it jumping around a bit and seeing some red (all in the chaos) . I assume this could be down to trigger alignment and losing signal. I also remember MK1GAZ and his cossy atmo having issues with the sensor he used in that it didn't read from the centre or something similar.
I think my is from a fiesta or KA

Does this make sense. Any thoughts welcome.

Thanks again:thumb:

[wildo105e]

just found it i think it is entry #1808

http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=108910&highlight=mk1+5+minute&page=46

:thumb:

[alladdin]

yes,you should get a cranking rpm. have you read the faq ?

heres a good starting point if you missed it..... its easy to get lost on the official sites !
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Tuning_Manual.htm#howto

[wildo105e]

Thanks alladdin you are right i have read so much lately but it is all becoming clearer. I have also been on the ms forums and clocked your name last night:D It's funny you go round the forums and spot the same people on each of them alsospotted casper002 and a success story of his RS2000.
http://www.msruns.com/viewtopic.php?t=22589

Tonights update then. Just had a look at the trigger wheel and alignment seems good so i hooked up the lappy and span it over with no spark plugs and got a constant 200 rpm which i think proves the trigger.

Waiting for my strobe off Fleabay to check the cranking timing and will pick up some new plugs tomorrow from my mate to replace the broken one and 3 other soaked ones.

Will keep ya posted:thumb:

[DarthVader]

I've read that not all timming lights work on wasted spark systems, so bear this in mind when checking the timming

[wildo105e]

cheers:thumb:

[wildo105e]

Just had another brain wave for me to check before attempting to start again. I am using the standard pinto efi water temp sender which seems to report 9c all the time regardless of air temp (which i can test with a hairdryer).

If the outside temp is lower then the MS will be putting less fuel as it thinks it is warmer. If i bridge the wires for the sender i should get a very high or low temp as there is no resistance:confused:

Also is it possible for you to connect these the wrong way round or would it work either way.

thanks again:thumb:

[wildo105e]

Over the last coupla days i have been learning about resistance:confused:. I have tested a spare engine temp sensor and got some logical figures. Put this on the end of my wiring loom and didn't get logical figures. Looks like I have a high resistance on the leads somewhere (probally my soldering).
I have a spare loom aswell so i lopped of the temp connector and plugged it into the MS and instantly got -36 degrees max is -40deg. Air temp read about 4 degrees (makes sense). Put the hot air gun on the water sensor and it flew round to 17 degrees fairly quick.:thumb:

Once this is wired in properly I just need to to callibrate the sensor. I know you can do this fairly easily by putting in the fridge and under your arm etc. But i treated the wife to a cooking thermometer off fleabay for a £5. Oh I guess i could use that then:D win win.

I will post the results when i have done this.

Timing strobe has turned up so that is the next check on the installation i can make.

Hope all this helps someone else not to make the same blunders:thumb:

[alladdin]

i dont think these would stop it starting tho? as they only trim the fuel ?
still i agree its better sorted now. have you worked out which pair of coil outputs fire together ?

[wildo105e]

been a while whilst i wait for my thermometer. So i did the temp sender in the garage at -1 deg c then under my arm 36 deg c and in boiling water 100 deg c (optomistic i know) and guess what when connected to the car the air temp reads -1 (about right at the mo) and the water reads -12 deg c:confused: any way as alladdin says i don't think this will make a massive difference to starting the car at the mo.

I also checked the timing with my new strobe and got no where near on the timing marks for 10 deg BTDC. Swapped plug lead one onto plug 2 and bobs your uncle . Looks like i have wired my coil pack the wrong way round so it was 180 deg out (a classic gotcha):thinking:. Still not attempted to start it yet due to other things maybe this weekend:thumb:

[alladdin]

good news

[wildo105e]

My wifes thermometer turned up today:D. I have done some temp testing and here are the figures.

My meter runs in K ohms so i assume all the figures here need to multiplied by 1000 to convert to ohms.

93 deg c 2.9 K ohms
43.1 deg c 14.70 K ohms
4.2 deg c 83.98 K ohms

Will bang into Easytherm tonight and load into the MS to see if it gets any more accurate. If i do it any more accurately NASA would be happy.

These figures are for a standard pint EFI sender unit :thumb:

[alladdin]

from the ford tech manual it should be in this range. for the zetec. so looks on the ball.
o deg 88k - 103k
20 35k -- 40k
40 15k -- 17k
60 7k1 -- 8k
80 3k -- 4k5

[Zetec_Escorts]

To test the CPS use a multimeter on AC volts. It should give over 0.5v as you crank.

[alladdin]

To test the CPS use a multimeter on AC volts. It should give over 0.5v as you crank.

cps ?:help:

[wildo105e]

Crank position sensor i think.

Thanks for the info. I now know my multimeter can do more than continuity and 12v:D with all my troubleshooting. It will be a shame when it runs

[wildo105e]

Well after everything. It runs and on second turn of the key:dance::dance::dance::dance:
It actually runs quite well even on a base map. It certainly looks like i had the coil wires back to front as i swapped the plug leads around and success. I also seem to have had the temp sensor wire and TPS live wired wrong:confused: In fairness on the pinto wiring they both have a red and yellow wire.
This is a big hurdle out of the way but now there is a million other things to learn and check to.
I don't think it will be the end of the thread as i am sure there will be many more problems to share:thumb:

[longboy]

congats:clap::clap: you get so swamped by info with this megasquirt stuff, got to remap mine this summer as all the code is so obsolete mega tune wont even recognise it:(

[alladdin]

:clap::clap:
never mind the problems, post the install as well :thumb: we like pics !

[wildo105e]

Aye will get some pics. Had it running yesterday in daylight so i could take stock of what was going on. I have a blowing exhaust and an overheating prob. The rad sensor doesn't seem to kick the fan in but ms goes yellow on the dial at 100 deg i think but still not sure about the temps which i callibrated. so this limits tuning sessions.
Played with the req fuel settings and have now got a good idle at 1000rpm but with a vaccum of 45kpa the books seem to indicate to aim for 35 kpa we will see.
Datalogged a few revs and ran them through megalogviewer just to see what it did looks straight forward:thumb: need to get it through it's MOT which has just expired doh so i can run it on the road and datalog it.

[wildo105e]

Been a while since i started the car up but i did this weekend to cure an overheating problem with success:woohoo:.

Since i reduced the req fuelling starting has is not as easy. It seems to start then die so i assuming the after start enrichment needs a tweak. I can live with this at the moment as after about 3 attempts it will start and run on it's own.
I also advanced the timing to 12 degs under normal tick over and this seems to have smoothed things out a bit more. Got to tweak the exhaust and then it will be MOT time. With that out of the way i can really get stuck into tuning on the road and tell you more of my mistakes:thumb:

[wildo105e]

Well the plot thickens. I was trying to tune the car and datalogged some running in the garage. I ran this through Megalogviewer and load it back in and now it starts first time and idles nicely although it still seems very rich.

The AFR gauge on megatune now reads 20 and just stays there:confused:. Having looked into this i thought i may have damaged the bosch lambda sensor by running too rich ??? However it looks more likely the Innovate lc-1 has gone capput. This surprised me but i have searched some forums including innovate's and it seems this is fairly regular . I will have to see about sending it back to them (how long will that take) but it stops me effectively tuning the car. This is annoying as this is probally the one most exspensive thing bar the MS unit.

Does anyone have opinions on other makes like Techedge etc.
I would like more than a couple of hours running for £100:noway:

[wildo105e]

Still messing with the LC-1. After getting some ideas from the innovate forum I loaded logworks and figured if i could see it in their own software then something was happening and from there i should be able to put the latest firmware on the controller.
Well without the lambda connected it errors connect it all up and it shows the heating cycle etc and then reads exactly the same as MS. Thats the good news:confused: One tip was to flash the sensor with a blow torch this sent it all over the place. i think my initial thoughts that the sensor has been damaged due to rich mixture. This gives me a problem. I need to get the mixture closer without damaging another sensor which is the point of it in the first place:help: I may get a narrow band one for initial tuning and add the wideband for finer tuning later.

[Dave]

I can't really comment on what you are doing because I don't understand any of it.
But, you deserve a pat on the back for perseverance. :thumb:

[Shanksy]

what about J.A.W.? although I cant comment on its operation as its still in the box. :thinking:
What sensor did you use ?

[wildo105e]

Thanks Dave_Roberts:thumb:In a funny way i enjoy it. Some people like driving cars i just like building them I have been looking at fuel injection for about 15 years but never got round to it. If it had worked out of the box it would have been a right let down:D.

Now the tech questions for all you guys out there.
I think my problem with the rich running is initially the required fuel does any body know the flow rate of some standard pinto efi injectors or have their req fuel figures to compare? Mine is currently at 10.6 on the ms

If i understand it right the req fuel governs the basic running and then the fuel map just fine tunes it less or more for fuel throttle etc So if an injector was running at 20% open at a given time it would be using 20% of the req fuel ?:confused: (i am making this up as i go along) at full throttle flat out it would theoretically be using all the req fuel figure.

Does this make sense:D

forgot to add i was using the innovate lc-1 with a bosch lsu 4.2 sensor

Cheers off to fix my terminally leaking exhaust

[alladdin]

im struggling to get my head around the req fuel issue:confused: its simple enough to get to once you know the flow ( squirt into bucket for x seconds , measure and then calc to cc/min ). however if i understand right you can utilise a map thats "done" by using the old req.fuel / new req.fuel feature in the fuel table tools,this will scale table up/down to suit the new injectors while supplying the same fuel as before via the ve table , make sence:doh: im just not sure still how it should be done ?




i forgot who wanted this info but ive just found,hope you dont mind if i post it here:thumb:
Bill's Bedroom
Located in the UK, Bill can supply: partial kits, complete kits, relay kits, flyback boards, stims, and built units to whatever spec you require. EDIS modules also generally in stock. All built units are by trained engineers and come with no quibble warranties. Blank chip programming capabilities for HC08 and HC12 so can repair your MS-II if it has an accident. Also Official UK dealer for Innovate Motorsports wideband lambda controllers and displays.

Contact: Bill@shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk (Bill@shurvinton.fsworld.co.uk)

[wildo105e]

Been a bit slow recently. Narrow band lambda has turned up but i need to fit it. Have been looking at the req_fuel issue. I needed to know the flow rate of my injectors.
Found this site http://www.injectorcleaning.co.uk/flow.htm

And deduced that my injectors flow 200 cc/min. Fed all this into MS calculator and it gave me 16.8 ???? I am currently running 10.6 and this seems very rich so still a little baffled. I assume the higher the figure the more req fuel ?????????????:confused: Had a look on the extra forum but no real definative answers yet. I will crack this sooner or later:thumb:

[alladdin]

i have maps with req fuel from 17+ down to 7ish so its not unusual. as i see it you would indeed be adding more fuel...... have you tried trimming the req fuel up/down while on idle ? i think thats the correct way to trim it anyway..?
i find the official ms sites very confusing, i find a page this week and cant find it for !/2 hour the following week, its like a labrynth ! i also feel they should adopt the extra firmware as the std official version to simplify.

[wildo105e]

Well here is more. I was messing about yesterday offline with megatune (god bless work):D. Once you have set you req fuel. I went into the ve table and an option is to create a table. This is based upon the req fuel. You have to put in idle rpm and torque and est power etc etc. I did this with some guesses on a pinto and the table created had numbers drastically lower than what i have at the mo. this would certainly explain the running rich. Next i will go with the calculated req_fuel of 16.8 and see what it generates.
The way i see this is that the the better you have the req_fuel the more scope you have in your ve table to tune:confused: or i am i talking rubbish:D.

Don't worry more to come i am sure

[wildo105e]

Just been looking and i was talking rubbish. It doesn't seem to use the req_fuel I think i was geting mixed up with resetting the req_fuel:confused:

[alladdin]

Once you have set you req fuel. I went into the ve table and an option is to create a table. This is based upon the req fuel. You have to put in idle rpm and torque and est power etc etc. I did this with some guesses on a pinto and the table created had numbers drastically lower than what i have at the mo. this would certainly explain the running rich. Next i will go with the calculated req_fuel of 16.8 and see what it generates.
The way i see this is that the the better you have the req_fuel the more scope you have in your ve table to tune:confused: or i am i talking rubbish:D.


this sound right to me:thinking:

req fuel is the amount req for one full combustion at the correct afr:thumb:
i have read about resettng the req fuel if you run out of scope in the ve table so that tallys.
i still havnt got around to fully understanding it, but try this....(keep your map safe / saved:D)
in constants check your req.now in basic settings choose fuel ve table 1 , in the table from tools/ ve specifc choose reset req fuel.
enter your new req.f. (your calculated one) enter/ table changes.
now im not sure but i thnk at this point you now have to change the req fuel value in constants to the calculated one ??????
try it in various ways see what happens, the idea is that the req f. value changes but the table compensates to give same running as before.

[wildo105e]

About time i revived this. Can't believe it is so long since i did anything with the escort, been busy doing the thing that actually pays for it:confused:.

I have now got and fitted a cheapo universal narrowband lambda sensor this now needs connecting to the MS with a bit a of reconfig work on the ecu we should see what happens.
Also spotted what could have been an air leak. On the throttle body i was using it had an air outlet on the top. I blanked this off with a ford rubber cap and tie wrap. Just my luck this rubbed on the bonnet strengthener. All the others i have collected have 2 outlets on the bottom. Quick change job done except that they have a different pulley arrangement so now the throttle cable is running at an angle:stu: Nothing is just simple is it ???

[wildo105e]

Well a month after the promise of an update here it is. Finally temp wired in the narrow band lambda. Fiddled with the MS and all should be pointing for narrow band.
Started it and as previously it was rich so it still was. I checked the lamba and it didn't appear to be working or it was so rich it was off the scale and i didn't need the lambda to tell me that my :stu: my eyes were watering. In a desperate attempt to reduce this by the seat of my pants i just kept downing the req fuel and finally at 7.6 down from 10.6 two green dots appeared on the gauge:clap:.
by this point it was 10pm and the neighbours were getting twitchy :D Did a bit of data logging so will try to get that loaded tonight and see if things get better:thumb:

[alladdin]

about time:moon: keep the updates coming:thumb:

[wildo105e]

:thumb:

[Shanksy]

oh dear.. I still have all this to go thru :stu:

[wildo105e]

Backwards progress has been :confused: My old laptop is fine but booting etc is painful. I use a USB comms adapter on my work laptop and it has never worked on the MS so I found advice that the Maplins comms port to usb worked so at £25 i plumped for it:stu:Luckily i will use on the daytime job:woohoo:so i didn't cop for the bill. New adapter duly installed tested connection and it worked. Except the throttle didn't register and the water temp was reading -31 degrees. Testing the old laptop it was fine. So after a week of reinstalling, callibrating, reloading firmware etc I am back on my old laptop:dunno: Has anyone else got a usb comms lead to work and if so was it cheaper than my luxurious £25 one.

I have also been playing with creating a MAP offline so i will update progress on this later when it works first time and is spot on:thinking:

[longboy]

I've been using a usb to serial cable for a while now with no probs (once i'd found which usb port megatune wanted to use). Not sure of the make though.

I've used the table wizzard to make me a starting map and worked from that.

[alladdin]

mine works fine too, from diy autotune.com:thumb:

[wildo105e]

Thanks for the advice. I have just tried the the generate map facility and good news it came up with something similar to what i generated from a map from Gustaf. That was a turbo one so i used the figures upto a 100KPa and then rounded it off etc and spread it about a bit :D

the figures i have come up with are a lot lower than what i originally had which would explain the really rich running and a map that looked like the Rocky mountains. I also rescaled the require fuel so i expect my 7.6 figure is now a little low so i suspect i will be upping that again to get it started.

The dodgy throttle has been located to the the connector i have used when i have had it apart and pushed it together it pushed the TPS sensor pin out of the plug:dunno:any way found it now.

Maybe another attempt to run it on thursday:thumb:

[longboy]

curently i'm using gustafs spark map and megalog viewer to correct my fuel map (using the analyse (sp?) function if the car works for longer than 1 mile.

[wildo105e]

:D You have a mile under the wheels? I looked at Gustafs ign map (Thanks Gustaf) and as it is turbo it tails the adavance off but as you already have a turbo should be good. I tried the megalogviewer aswell but on on idle and backwards and forwards in the garage so maybe i was expecting too much to start with:confused: Now i have hopefully a better map it may work better.

The reason i wanted to get on my works lap top is the battery isn't that good on the old one so datalogging is going to be a problem or i could spend another £30 on a new battery:noway:

Shouldn't be long now (famous last words):thumb:

[Stu.C]

Like Dave earlier, it's mostly gibberish to me ... but I doff my cap all the same :thumb:

Fascinating stuff :)

[Shanksy]

Was it the standard usb 1.1 port or usb 2.0 it might make a difference, I checked mine but I dont know how to tell which one it is :confused:
lucky av got a serial port, required for work as well :D

[wildo105e]

It really is weird the new lead is as USB 2.0 and works with everything except the engine temp which works but about 30 degs out. so the laptop reports -26 or so which it is clearly about 19 degs.:confused:

With Megasquirt the are levels of gibberish I think i am just above the bottom:D. Some of the stuff i have seen on forums might aswell be chinese. But some of this is for electronics boffins and not needed unless you are developing stuff.:thumb:

[alladdin]

ive noticed that when i load my alpha n setup , the temps are wrong. im guessing its because the matching files for sender arnt in the folder, i need to copy them from the old map setup folder. maybe you did similar?

[wildo105e]

Went through my complete config from start. Got a required fuel of 16.8 which is a lot higher than i have used before. Also generated a new ve1 table which looked good at around 30 on tickover in the ve table. This seemed to tie in with the MSExtra guides. It took a little bit to get started but it did in the end without changing anything. Idle seemed a lot better but the narrow band was showing as very rich (as usual) so i batterd down the pusle widths at tickover and nothing seemed to change:confused: then the clutch trashed when i decided to turn the car around itself end of play. The fact i always seen to have it rich no matter what i do i am now thinking that maybe i have a duff injector that could be stuck open and just putting loads of fuel no matter what i do. I have a few sets so may chage them over and see. oh and a clutch to sort out now:stu:

[alladdin]

try unplugging one at a time once its running ?

[wildo105e]

Cheers alladdin good idea never thought of that. Engine and G/box out of the car at the mo to fix the clutch. I was going to put 12v down the injectors on a switch and see if i could hear a clicking. I have also got a couple of spare sets so i could swap them over for another. I have just got a full cossy inlet with green 803 injectors in (next future stage to fit to the pinto so i can get my strut brace back on). I know longboy uses these so i may try them and alter the settings in MS or maybe that may just confuse the issue even more.:confused: The pinto ones should be right for the car hence why i can't understand why it always seems to be very rich:thumb:

[wildo105e]

Thought I would finally add a coupla piccies to brighten up the thread. It is just of the installation prior to it being removed for repairsThey may help for reference:thumb: