my megasquirt experiment [Archive]

alladdin

23-02-2008, 01:00

anyone who has seen my resto thread (farmyard folly) will see that its a while from running:dunno:

so rather than clutter that thread im going to chart my m/s build here. i expect it to be a rocky path.....:thinking:

m/s what that then?. its a diy ecu that you can build / tune yourself ...... i hope:muppet:

a v.brief guide to the versions
1. megajolt = ign only
2. ms1 v2.2 = inj only (+ spark if using "msextra" firmware and edis)
3. ms1 v3 = later more robust circuit board. inj +ign as above plus its own on board ignition drivers.

4. ms 11 ie ms2 + v2.2 or v3 fitted with better "chip" to give more options and performance.

5. microsquirt = for bikes

there is also a smt version of the board (smaller bits) and other firmware (the on chip software functions) versions.

fact 1 ms works
fact 2 most are built by people like me who have no idea what theyre doing :D but cant afford an emerald etc..... i think that explains why they get a bad name in some circles ?
ive built a v3 and will be installing extra firmware. i will be reading a lot here.....
http://www.msextra.com/index.php

trialsrich

23-02-2008, 01:17

alladdin

23-02-2008, 01:42

I am glad you'll be posting this, as you said this is somthing a lot of people will be interested in but will be frightened off by the computer talk 'firmware' and that!

I for one look forward to reading a lot more

Thanks

:clint::clint::bolt:
was hoping nobody would watch me :D:D:D. i know im gona regret it but ive gained so much frob t sport i owe one .... im even considering a subscription:giveup:

neilm

23-02-2008, 03:00

I dont wish to piss on your chips... but some time ago I said to Troy at Northampton Motorsport they should get into mapping Megasquirt as no one was really doing it and there would be money to be made.

But everyone they have done has been a nightmare for one reason or another.

The most recent story I heard this week, against Troys better judgement they took a car in with what was billed as a 'pro built' ECU and Loom.

Fired the car up, no ignition advance past 8 degrees, after 1 hour of extensive diagnosis this was traced to a break in a wire.

Then there were other faults where the car was running and the Megasquirt management software just reported an ecu reset which was coupled with mis-firing.

The ecu reset itself 40 times in an hour, this was then traced to faulty components on the main board and was taken away for repair and upgrade.

On its return, fired up and ran fine, still getting intermittent ecu resets coupled with mis-fires for no apparent reason, loads of missing and huge flat spot at 1500rpm, several settings and values changed in the ECU, problem cleared, then re-appeared at 2000rpm, more set up values changed and re-set, problem re-appears back at 1500rpm. The ECU was returned to the Probuilder for futher checks.

The net result the customer had over 7 hours on the rollers and workshop time checking over the install, 2 visits to the rolling road, a bill for 6 hours labour, with 1.5 hours lost on the job and the car is still not running right. As a gesture of good will once the probuilder has sorted the ECU once and for all its back to the rollers to check the running faults and a final tweak to the map.

Needless to say the amount of money the fella spent on the unit and the the subsequent mapping time he could have bought a brand spanking new Weber Alpha or an OMEX, with Loom, plugged it in, turned the key and driven the car and it would have driven lovely.

I used to be a huge advocate of Megasquirt but after hearing of the problems that have been encountered by numerous people I now feel its false economy.

Sonus

23-02-2008, 05:05

Nielm - what you're pointing a finger at is the quality control of MS. As a DIY ECU it will never have the same reliability as a finished product supplied as a complete kit beacause there is never the same person doing the QC (except for probiult versions that you mention). If one believes that the MS will be as trouble free as a prebuilt and mapped kit, yes I agree it's false economy. However I do believe that most that venture down the MS-route are made aware that some knowledge has to be had or gained to understand the inner workings and to make it work for the intended application. I bet that the most stories are about people that really didn't know what they were getting into and get fed up when they understand that MS wasn't the kick and easy fix they thought it to be. These are ofcourse just my thoughts having never built an MS, but having read a lot on forums about it. Time will show as I'm planning a MS to control my spark in my Zetec powered MGB.

Tinde

23-02-2008, 07:22

I agree with Sonus.

Many people seem to forget that:

"MegaSquirt® is an experimental device intended for educational purposes."
Experimental means that YOU are responsible for sorting out some details of your fuel injection that are specific to your application. Do-it-yourself means that you save money by assembling it yourself with a few basic tools and comprehensive instructions.

http://www.megasquirt.info/MS%20FAQ.htm#whatis

I have two cars with MS, never had (so far...) any serious problems. Other ecu is build by myself and other is bought from www.extraefi.co.uk (http://www.extraefi.co.uk)

neilm

23-02-2008, 14:10

Unfortunately, most people see MS as a way to a cheap ECU and saving money.

Most are also under the illusion they are able to map a car and somehow that its an easy thing to do....

Dont get me wrong Northampton Motorsport have seen some excellent results once cars are finally mapped, but the problems along the way make most of these journeys far more expensive than the owners originally believed it would be and 9 times out of 10, in hind sight it would have been cheaper, quicker and better all round just to have suffered the pain from the outset and bought a proper product.

Guys... this is just someone elses experience and forums are about sharing experience so everyone doesnt have to go and learn their own lessons.

wildo105e

23-02-2008, 14:29

I am sure most ECU's have horror stories you only have to look the problems sillymonkey had with a Motec (i think) and MK1gaz with his weber.
I do think that anyone getting an MS should understand that it is for people who like to do and understand the full workings of things. The problems are part of the enjoyment and solving them thats not to say i would have loved my to have started first time.:D But i have traced and rectified them and learnt an awful lot on the way.

If thats not what you want buy a turn key kit but it still needs to installed correctly. Dave walker writes articles purley about problems he has

I will be watching this with interest

Hopefully it should shed light on the black art of MS:thumb:

alladdin

23-02-2008, 15:37

well i guess the responses so far justify this thread:dance:
some good points from both angles, i think the story by niel sums up a particular customer mistake... if you want to fit an ecu and go strait to the rr for mapping then dont get a m/s ! why would you ? i have a strange interest in engine management nurtured by that bloody walker chap and his home made t/b 's all those years ago. it should be remembered that he launched the emerald unit on the back of the fact that you could tune / program it yourself at rr or on the road. anyone else used to read ccc ?:D

this is as much for my hobby enjoyment and if i have to in it i will be all the richer along the way:thumb:

alladdin

23-02-2008, 15:49

my aim is to try and de mystify the m/s somewhat along the way.
one point to remember is that it does work if built correctly. there are thousands running a1 on cars that would have otherwise not had management. its a big learning curve tho !

this is the v2.2 unit complete.(my mates) its far simpler than v3

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/200802231439308228DSCF1017.JPG

heres the v3 i built, note the extra power resistors along the top edge for the ignition function also my ecu chip is not fitted.

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022314392051697ms1 v3.jpg

this is the relay board, its not required but im using it as an underbonnet wiring point

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022314393279114relay board.JPG

this is the relay board and the edis unit mounted on an ally plate for fitting

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022314395683594relay and edis.JPG

heres the stim, its used to simulate the engine inputs for testing during the build.

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022314398534546stim.JPG

next i will show you my new test station.....:popcorn:

andrewr

23-02-2008, 16:05

Ok first let me say I have many megasquirt units, and have been running one in my daily for 2+ years.. Its a great unit.

Neilm I totally agree people see MS as a cheap ECU, but it is only cheap if you are willing to learn and understand it. I've helped out a few people and witnessed many cases where people buy MS and expect it to be 'Plug-and-play'. Build quality issues are down to the vendor, and there are certain shonky dealers. Stick to the big names (given on the megasquirt site) and you won't have problems. Personally I reccomend building at least the first ecu yourself anyway.

Once you know and understand MS its very easy to install and tune. I could build an ecu in about 5 hours.. Then a day to make loom, install and tune (and troubleshoot any gremlins). I would suggest any tuner expecting to troubleshoot megasquirt needs to understand them. There is a big difference between tuning and troubleshooting.

I just get fed up with people relaying these 'horror stories' when its clearly other factors are at fault, not the megasquirt design.

If you are willing to put in some time to learn megasquirt is cheap and very effective. However you should only be taking your car to the rolling road when it is already running with no issues. Expecting the rolling road operator to troubleshoot a DIY system isn't fair to the tuner or the megasquirt unit.

andrew

ps sorry for the rant :)

andrewr

23-02-2008, 16:11

Hey alladdin nice work the ms looks good. With the stim you can run it on a power pack if you want, those 9V batterys don't last long. Either a 9V or 12V powerpack will work..

wildo105e

23-02-2008, 17:14

Good old Dave Walker. I was inspired by him but it has took me about 15 years to be in a position to actually dip my toes in the water. I am also treating mine as ongoing experiment.
Still got piles of old CCC at home.

Keep up the good work:thumb:

alladdin

23-02-2008, 19:19

well to get on with playing with my m/s i bought a "test bed" .......... cost me £30 :clint:

but it did come in a shiny box :cool:
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http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022318149152527shiny box.JPG

electric heated arm chair anyone :jester:

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022318141991272seat.JPG

made a "wiring incision"

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022318149049073wiring nest.JPG

alladdin

23-02-2008, 19:25

a quick word about the kit and build manual.
got my kit from diyautotune but i suspect all recomended sellers are similar. in a word SUPERB .... all labelled and bagged, even a non electrical beginner stands a good chance.

online based manual (megamanual) is amazingly comprehensive and a real step by step job. a must read if your interested.

alladdin

24-02-2008, 10:02

yesterday i was on babysitting duties, so was forced to watch rugby all day :banana:.
in between games i managed to cut out some loom from the mondeo and knock up a plug in "pigtail" to the relay board from the engine harness. this plug has 12 pins so is a usefull thing to get hold of:thumb: i will construct my own engine harness eventually from it.
now my plan at the mo is to get the std engine running on ms "as is" in the car, anyone see a problem with that ? i know i will have to frig the fuel pump relay and a starter inhibit relay (autos use for park start only, manuals is an imobiliser function ??) anything else ?

engine sensors etc pig tail and coil lead attached

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022408527816773tails on relay box.JPG

and in case anyone thought i was an organised / efficient type ..... heres the set of pro notes i made under the bonnet :D

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/2/2008022408521108094notes.JPG

DarthVader

24-02-2008, 22:12

Keep it comming - this is interesting

andrewr

24-02-2008, 23:23

That car was a nice pickup for 30 pounds.. Wish I could have gott my hands on one that cheap!

alladdin

24-02-2008, 23:59

That car was a nice pickup for 30 pounds.. Wish I could have gott my hands on one that cheap!

has mot i think but clutch was burnt out trying to free the back brakes :noway: just needed a F B H. car was actually free , £30 was for dropping it off on a truck :).
ran well enough for the 5 mins i tried it .
IF i can get it going on ms then i will fit my t/b setup to it and try that.

wildo105e

25-02-2008, 09:42

Good stuff this. Good to see professional notes and diagrams. My are very similar but on a smaller note pad:D

An escort should be a doddle after this.

Keep it coming:thumb:

alladdin

01-03-2008, 18:08

just a quick update, i have now updated a few resistors on my edis mods on the v3 board to latest recomended ones, also did my mates board for edis use.
then i had a rather frustrating time trying to connect either to the laptop.:confused:
long story short i had made a silly error:muppet: i had megatune software on the laptop configured for msns-e firmware while the ecu's both had std ms1 firmware on the chips...... result was a failure to connect.
reconfigured megatune and all was well. i then uploaded the latest msns-e firmware to both units and loaded a map onto each (mine = zetec, his is for a pinto)
both appear to be working as they should on the stim (to which ive connected a 12v supply ....andrew:thumb:).

not much else to do before im ready to try it, is there ?:help::D

alladdin

02-03-2008, 01:28

this evening i tackled the temp sensor issue, i was going to replace the onboard bias resistors r4,r7 but decided to follow the recomended route and update the ".inc" files.
this was made easier by the zetec sender files being ready prepared and included in the msns-extra download file from the site.
all went smoothly i think ,:dunno: its on the stim so its hard to tell.....
one thing thats odd is that you dont need to short the boot loader points to upload this (using download-firmware.bat)once the extra firmware is onboard ? hows that then :confused:

sorry about the "techy talk " but if your reading about m.squirt then it should make some sense.:bolt:

one point for those ive sent maps to, if you find anything untoward please drop me a line:thumb:

wildo105e

02-03-2008, 10:13

alladdin

02-03-2008, 11:47

Good stuff. I used the same way to upload my water temp file only and seemed to work fine.
What is the benefits of using edis (i don't understand how it works).

Make sure you get all your wiring in the car spot on. Most of my probs have been down to me:D

Keep these updates coming

edis is the standard ford ignition module as used on many models inc fiesta and early / auto mondeos. it drives the coil pack and the advance is determined by a single input wire from the ecu....... hence mega s can drive it.
it was initialy used due to ms being injection only, then the msns and msns-e (megasquirt and spark - extra) firmware was developed which allowed full management.
its now not needed with the v3 board which has built in ignition drivers.

many still use ediis as its a pretty bullet proof way of driving the ignition and has built in fail safe mode of 10deg adv.(should ms fail, but you wouldnt have any fuel:D)
downside is that you cant use the spark cut / limiter/ traction control features :watchout:

i agree with your comments, i think most negative aspects attributed to ms are down to the installer.

andrewr

02-03-2008, 12:41

Aladdin is spot on, just to add my 2c worth, I really like EDIS because it is a standard wasted spark setup and is very reliable. I think other ignition options for wasted spark, such as VB921 are more complicated and, if not installed correctly, far less reliable. Its hard to go wrong with EDIS.

wildo105e

02-03-2008, 12:51

Gotcha. Sort of like a relay for the coil if that makes sense:thumb:

Capri302

02-03-2008, 13:09

Hmmmn :help:,I think I may have bitten off more than I can chew here! I've just bought a,second hand(off Marty,not slagging him off or anything,honest), MS unit,with laptop. I was,and still am really,under the impression that it is a plug n play unit. Having just read this thread, I'm not so certain now. Is it possible for a complete numty,electronics wise, to be able to understand,use and then solve any problems that may,or may not, crop up:giveup:? I am not yet in a possition to plug it in,but I was told that a suitable map had been loaded,to get it running ("it" being a 24v Cosworth in a Capri), and then have it set up properly on a "R-R". I am now starting to have my doubts, about it being so "user friendly", for utter beginners! Should I, in all honesty now, go with it, or just stick with the standard ECU? I don't want to have to spend hours and hours of my time,or somebodyelse's (expensive!) time,trying to sort out the problems I may encounter! All HONEST answers gratefully received and "digested". Thanks,Tim.

andrewr

02-03-2008, 14:36

Tim it may well be a 'plug and play' unit if it has already been set up for you. If it hasn't been set up it may take some time to sort out.

If it was running on the same engine it shouldn't be too bad. Best is to email the guy you bought it off and ask how its set up and what you need to do..

alladdin

02-03-2008, 22:00

and will there be any benefit for you over running the std ecu ? which itself is a tried and tested route i imagine ? wasnt there a guide in a mag recently ?

of course if you want the v6 on tripple down draught throttle bodies then the std ecu aint an option...........

with ms its not so much the electrical side, its being "pc literate" and the amount you need to read up on in order to go the diy route. if the ms was on a similar unit and running before then theres not too much to sort, ir there any wiring with it ?

wildo105e

02-03-2008, 23:20

If you want plug and pray:pray: stick with the factory option. But remember this stopped being factory once it went in a capri. Anything else means complications and that means any ecu not just MS.
There is a lot to learn initially and do it yourself if you don't fancy this the best option is to get the guys who will tune the engine to install their chosen favourite ECU this will mean a few ££££. You will have to judge what you are prepared to do yourself.
Remember there at least 2 MS installs going on here at the mo so our mistakes can help you and there is the forums etc.
The more you read and learn then the less you spend at the rolling road.:thumb:

popuptoaster

03-03-2008, 12:00

A bog standard BOA 24v can make more power with MS (obviously depending on the map) but weather the amount of hassle justifies the amount of power increase, only you can decide, im keeping my standard ECU as they semm to work fine with the bigger injectors, BOB cams an intake kit and a chip, any more work than that though and I think that'll be the time to change over.

Capri302

03-03-2008, 20:11

It's actually a boggo BOB engine,and the reason I got the MS was because I didn't get all the bits I needed off the guy selling the engine(even though I asked for it all and he had the whole car!), ie., the key and all the gubbins for the immobiliser etc. I am using a BOA loom,and then,rather than trying to find an ECU,off a BOA,of unknown origine,I thought I'd take the plunge and get a programmable ECU. I think that,when it was used by the previous owner,it was running 4 cylinder! As mentioned,he has loaded a basic map for the BOB to get it running,and the fact that it can also run other aspects of the engine,I jumped in feet first:giveup:. I have previously run a Capri with a BOA without any problems whatsoever,in fact,I think I was amongst one of the first to use it!That was about 11 years ago. It appeared in numerous mags., like Maxpower(before it turned to s%*t) Classic Ford,Retro etc. Some of you might remember,a yellow,X-packed Mk3 with Image split rims and 280 Brookie interior. Anyway,I digress. So the general consensus is,unless I become an electronics expert pretty damn quickly,go with a standard ECU? If so, what is an MS ECU,cableing and laptop worth?:help:

alladdin

03-03-2008, 22:08

put it on ebay, theres a market.

or sell it to me for £50 :D

Capri302

03-03-2008, 22:16

You're too generous:jester:

wildo105e

04-03-2008, 20:39

Wow would you beleive i was reading Retro 1995 winter last night (why i don't know) guess whats in it ??? No prizes OOO 819V. I assume this was your car you mentioned:thumb:

With your MS Have a crack at it most have dived in first and then thought after. I thought a while but still knew relatively little I know more now but not much It's just a case of learning can't be any harder than tracking down the missing bits etc. The challenge is the fun:D

bortaf

04-03-2008, 23:37

alladdin

05-03-2008, 06:28

some general zetec sensor info here.
http://forums.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=128393

Capri302

05-03-2008, 12:13

Yes Wildo105e,that's the one! Do miss it,was a lovely car to drive,which had a lot to do with the engine! Hence the Mk2 I'm now playing with. Suppose I could always get hold of a standard ECU,and then if I can't get on with the MS,just plug that in.

alladdin

06-03-2008, 18:43

ok folks time for an update ;)

a few weeks ago i built a pair of cables to run from the ms to the relay box, my v3 differs from my mates v2 in that on a v3 board pins 3,4,5,6 on db37 are for "extra functions" while on a v2 they are earthed, a v2 cable on v3 board could cause a short if these were wired.
its pretty straitforward pin to pin stuff.

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008030617264055787relay cable.JPG

then last night i rigged it all up in a very temp manner:clint:and tried it out

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008030617261785584ms on dash.JPG

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008030617262927247ms temp wiring1.JPG

it poped and banged a few times but that was it:stu: on the plus side all the inputs/outputs were running on the ms screen ok:)
then the cold and dark won the battle, i did however remember that the tps was wired wrong and corrected it early on.( see the luz link !)

round 2 tonight, i checked the coil packs first on a hunch.... yep 1+ 4 were wired to wrong edis pins:muppet: i swapped the 1,4 pair for 2, 3 and fired up the puter....
:banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana::banana: :thumb:
took a little coaxing to catch but once going sounded very sharp. wont tickover tho at the mo as its v.rough below 1500 rpm.
im a happy puppy tonight. the satisfaction is massive even at this stage:cool:
o2 not connected as yet and kp may not have been in the photo. ps. thanks to zetecvan on osf for a pretty good map:thumb:

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008030617264087220running screen1.JPG

alladdin

06-03-2008, 18:47

like its been said before, a lot of the problems are down to a dodgy install

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008030617262927247ms temp wiring1.JPG

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D do as i say not as i do never was truer:lol:

wildo105e

08-03-2008, 11:05

Top dude:thumb: You were a lot quicker than me But that old coil back to front trick is a classic:D

Nice leads looks like you have been raiding a datacoms catalogue.

Keep it coming:thumb:

alladdin

08-03-2008, 14:12

Nice leads looks like you have been raiding a datacoms catalogue.

Keep it coming:thumb:

plugs from farnell online, 24 core cable from my last working place (was scrap of course;)).

tested my mates v2 today on the hi tec test bed. works fine.

Shanksy

09-03-2008, 12:01

Hello to everyone.. I just got one as well, arrived mid week, will let u know how I get on.

alladdin

09-03-2008, 19:41

ive had another play today, got the idle much better using req fuel in basic settings page. had to wedge the single t/b open a bit tho as i guess it uses the idle valve as std since the butterfly is dead closed and theres to idle screw.

anyway im happy it works and its on to stage 2 of the test plan.
its time to fit some t/b's and test them out.:)

i made this setup some while back and its time they got some action

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008030918342382203my_tbs_on_zetec (9).JPG

Shanksy

10-03-2008, 00:13

mmm throttle bodies :drool:

wildo105e

10-03-2008, 21:36

traven16v

11-03-2008, 00:09

I'm wiring up my Megasquirt on my Zetec Mk2 at the moment, just have a quick question. The 2 sets of wires for the injectors (2 white and 2 green) I take it they are the injector earths? and will require a 12v ignition feed?

Do you wire for example the white wires to 1 and 3 injectors and and the green wires to 2 and 4 injectors?

OR

One white and one green to 1 and 3 and the other white and green to 2 and 4 injectors?

Hope that makes sense?

Cheers

alladdin

11-03-2008, 00:35

They look nice you are raising the bar now.

Using the req fuel seemed to get mine running well. I was surprised how much i had to knock it down to get the AFR to around 14.I think mine is set to around 10 i don't whether this is good or bad. The sierra efi plenum has a throttle adjuster so that helped me a bit playing with that aswell.:thumb:
the req fuel was 18 on the map i got but 12 gave a better tickover. 18 was a better / smoother "rev up" tho.
now reading the manual and usin those figs am i correct in saying .....
set req fuel at 12
go to ve table/ tools/ve specific/reset reqd fuel , now you enter the old fuel (18? or 12 ?) the new fuel (12? or 18?) press reset
then go back to basic constants page and put the 12 back to 18. ???? it doesnt read too well?? i dont fully understand what im acheiving here ? anyone ?

I'm wiring up my Megasquirt on my Zetec Mk2 at the moment, just have a quick question. The 2 sets of wires for the injectors (2 white and 2 green) I take it they are the injector earths? and will require a 12v ignition feed?

Do you wire for example the white wires to 1 and 3 injectors and and the green wires to 2 and 4 injectors?

OR

One white and one green to 1 and 3 and the other white and green to 2 and 4 injectors?

Hope that makes sense?

Cheers

not sure about your colours as ive no idea about your harness but as you say....
the injectors do indeed all need a common 12v feed, you then grnd each thro ms.
on my relay board theres a 12v output for the common feed and inj1,inj1, inj2, inj2, so they fire in pairs...... but now you mention it i cant remember how they relate to the cylinders:thinking: its possible ive put them incorrect:D
too late to think now,will check tom:thumb:

wildo105e

11-03-2008, 10:15

I may be wrong but don't all the injectors fire at once. It is the intake stroke that decides when it sucks the fuel in. You can do it on a per piston basis sequential i think it is. On some of the really top stuff i think you can control the pulse width on a cylinder basis aswell.

I have mine wired like that inj 1 + 2 common earth and 3 + 4 together. But they both have seperate feeds for each injector from MS I think this purely so you don't overload circuits etc.

Any corrections welcome:thumb:

alladdin

11-03-2008, 19:12

DarthVader

11-03-2008, 20:18

When I did my Xflow with throttle bodies I struggled my ass off trying to get the ECU working correctly. After many hours I found it was a bad earth, so be sure u have good earths to everything.

Could a CO meter be used to set up mixture ?

wildo105e

11-03-2008, 20:44

its not the earth thats common its the live. all the injectors (and most else) are earthed thro the meqasquirt. all lives to injectors are common. injector bank 1 is fed from (from memmory) pins 32 and 33 on db37 (these are common together) while bank 2 is fed from pins 34 and 35 also common together. ive run cyl1 and1 to bank 1 and cyl 3+4 to bank 2.

Indeed just me getting mixed up again. I forget that MS earth things. I assume this places less load on the electrical circuits ?

I also spent a lot of time running a good earth right from the battery in the boot. I always remember Dave Walker preaching about earths being good:thumb:

alladdin

12-03-2008, 00:27

Could a CO meter be used to set up mixture ?

i dont know anything about them so cant comment, the ms has an on screen afr display (fuel ratio) which works from the lambda sensor or better still a wide band version.
i bought an inovative lc1 in shares with my mate (who is now a turbosport lurker:wave:) and had it all shipped to him on the beach in florida to avoid post/taxes etc. it looks good in the box:dunno:

stablau

12-03-2008, 23:42

Hi all, as this is my first ever post of any sort, may i start by saying how much usefull information i have picked up from lurking on Turbosport. You guys have some great projects on the go. Wish i still had my RS 2000 with group 1 engine compleat with 48 ida downdraft webers and type 9 box. That was 20 years ago & i shudder to think how much in would cost every time i booted it nowadays!!!!!
My problem now which i need help with is wiring up my Megasquirt to a big valve Zetec going into my Lotus 7.
I seem to have got totally lost over the injector wiring on my 750GXR K2 T/Bs.
My Megasquirt injector wiring has the no's 13,14.15,16, (all black with nos on them)and from your current thread it would seem these are the earth wires and a common 12v ignition feed is required.
What i have done is used the common wires on all the injectors as the feed and and wired the earths from the Megasquirt to the seperate wires to the injectors.
If i am thinking right i may have got the polarity wrong by doing this and if i have does it matter???
Im watching the Bank 1 Bank 2 queries also as im having problems understanding that, i will want to go sequencial once i have it running as it has big cams and that will help smooth out the slow running i belive.
And that 20uf capacitor in the live feed to the coil pack, is it really neccessary, a radio is the last thing a 7 needs
Cheers for any forecoming help
Clive

alladdin

13-03-2008, 01:05

1st up welcome to ts :thumb: it was the helpfull info that led me here which is why im sharing this "experiment".
heres a general version of the ms external wiring

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008031223498995057v3ext_wiring.gif

the numbers you quote are just cable core nos, the numbers that matter are the db37(plug/socket) no's.
you can see they are 32.33,34,35. check your plug.
if you dont have a relay board then you need a supply for the injectors ( and coil pack, and fuel pump) thats switched from the ignition.(use relays is best).

"from your current thread it would seem these are the earth wires and a common 12v ignition feed is required.
What i have done is used the common wires on all the injectors as the feed and and wired the earths from the Megasquirt to the seperate wires to the injectors.
If i am thinking right i may have got the polarity wrong by doing this and if i have does it matter???"

thats the same thing if i read it correct ? ie you did correct.

for cams and gsxr t/b you might be better using an alpha N setup (uses tps not map). im going to try this myself and have a base map if you need it(tested,runs on the testbed)

thats a start.:thumb:

stablau

13-03-2008, 10:50

Thanks Mate for the quick reply. My Megasquirt came from ExtraEFI already built for me but its been over a year ago due to a full running gear rebuild and ive only just got round to fitting the engine and wiring. The loom that came with it is nearly the same as the one you posted last night the only difference is theres no fuses in the circuit anywhere whitch i will rectify. Injector wires go to the same pins but are not grouped i.e. i have 4 seperate wires.
If by using the common wire that was connecting all the injectors as their 12 volt+ ignition feed as i have done am i how using the the bike earth as a feed therefore reversing the polarity???? And if i have does it matter.
Have wired in the tps
Should have a Zetec map in there when i get around to plugging it in to a laptop but would be nice to get a working comparison
I havnt got around to the alpha thing yet as its not even mentioned in my instuctions.
Once again thanks for your help and time :thumb:
Cheers Clive

alladdin

13-03-2008, 12:11

just make sure the common wires across all the injectors is the + and your 4 wires go to the other sides.
good place to buy.im guessing you got a cd with the kit containing the manuals etc ?
heres a good place for anyone interested to start reading etc. its the msextra version homepage.
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/index.htm

wildo105e

13-03-2008, 16:55

Go to the extraefi page and there are loads of helpful diags. The numbers on the cables should match his diags. Mine is from there and i used the diags. I think the 4 seperate earths will go to the left pin with the pluge nearest to you and the common live to the right. This is how my sierra injectors work.

On the ford wiring the each pair of injectors shared and earth so i had to split these.:thumb:

alladdin

17-03-2008, 21:00

well its been a bit wet lately and this weekend i became the victim of an alien abduction:watchout:
i remember walking into a pub in Cardiff on sat morning and didn't regain consciousness until lunchtime on Sunday:help: even then i didn't have proper use of my limbs.
i also had a strange dream that wales had won another grand slam:cool:
anyway , i know what your all thinking...............................
...............
...............
...............
............
NO, i WAS NOT PROBED :clint::D:D
the little green gits appeared to have stolen all my cash tho :rolleyes:

update soon...............

alladdin

17-03-2008, 22:43

ok, i got out this afternoon and had a rip and tear.

made a hole

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008031721352923890hole.JPG

had a few bits leftover:muppet:
http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008031721356690064spare bit

now i didnt expect the t/b's to fit with a std alternator setup in place but it did... just.

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/200803172135171814bodys fit.JPG

cant fit a throttle cable as can be seen but thats the least of my worries on this car:D

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008031721353276368tight fit.JPG

now i have to fit some fuel inlets (the brass tails are temp) , get a regulator and make a nice harnes for later use. amongst other things:doh:

grs2000

20-03-2008, 14:29

Wow, just seen this thread for first time. Before reading I was convinced MS was right for my build (similar to yours by the looks of things) then I read down a bit and thought 'stuff that' then carried on to the end and now its 'thats the one for me!'

An excellent thread, I am now only a few months off install so am getting all the info possible. Good luck.:thumb:

p.s. tbs look top mate!

alladdin

20-03-2008, 16:22

then I read down a bit and thought 'stuff that'

that would be neils post then ? :D:D

p.s. tbs look top mate!

in case anyone didnt know they are 750 k2 suzuki gsxr respaced to zetec port spacing on a homemade manifold.

:thumb:

alladdin

24-03-2008, 22:02

just a small update to keep the easter bunnys happy:)

today i made up an engine loom of sorts. ive used the ford mondeo 12 way socket. It covers the injectors, tps, coolant sensor, air temp sensor, and a spare pair of tails in case i want to play with an idle valve at a later date.

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008032420575949708tb_sub_loom1.JPG

i can use the plug ive already wired to the relay box for now with just a few changes, i will remake this properly once i get it off the car and decide on a lenghth:thinking: ... i cant decide where to mount the relay box on the mk1 tho:confused:

grs2000

25-03-2008, 14:08

Co incidentally the same nodies as mine! Nice one!;)

I am waiting with great anticipation. How far off is the car they are going into?

alladdin

26-03-2008, 00:54

How far off is the car they are going into?

depends if you mean this one

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/2008032523529939576shiny box.JPG

or this one
http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/3/200803252352618592car on spit bk.JPG

:D:D the good news is that ive made my pics smaller:lol:

grs2000

26-03-2008, 13:47

Ah.... It was the green one I was thinking of. A couple of weeks then:D

Will you be able to do a 'before and after' driving report on the mondy? or wont it see the road.

Good luck, hope it goes well. Will watch with baited breath.:thumb:

alladdin

27-03-2008, 00:55

no, the mondy has zero clutch friction so wont even move. the aim is to test my megasquirt and t/b's and the maps as far as possible.
also i couldnt wait to have a play to be honest:D
so far im happy enough, it will be interesting to see how the maps run the t/b's.

grs2000

07-04-2008, 12:48

You'd better get a move on, my V3 kit comes tomorrow, I'll need all the guidance you can give..:lol:

Any progress.

alladdin

07-04-2008, 23:29

no mate im still looking for a fuel regulator before i can fit the bodies on. i need to be sharp tho as as soon as the days clear i need the car gone to build a new fence:dunno:

grs2000

08-04-2008, 13:04

traven16v

08-04-2008, 17:26

I'm looking into getting a Fuel Pressure Regulator, was going to go the same route as Chambers with his Zetec conversion using a FPR from a Sierra Cosworth but unfortunately they are unavailable tired Burtons and my local Ford dealer both said the same.

The Burtons salesman said why not try using one of though FSE power boost valves? Would this be ok as they have a different ratio to a standard FPR (Boost Valves are 1.7:1 compaired to the standard 1:1 ratio) I think FSE also make normal adjustable FPR's with standard 1:1 ratio would that be better?

Or should I go down the other route and buy one of though £30 adjustable FPR on Ebay? (They seem abit cheap and nasty and give me the impression they wont last long)

Any help would be great.

alladdin

08-04-2008, 23:43

Ive got an adjustable one with a pressure gauge on it you are welcome to borrow if you want mate. It has pushfit connectors on 1/4" BSP screw in fittings (looks like your tb pushfits). PM me if interested. I Dont need it for at least 6 weeks, more likely 10.
very kind offer thanks, but since i will need one at some point i might as well get it now....

I'm looking into getting a Fuel Pressure Regulator, was going to go the same route as Chambers with his Zetec conversion using a FPR from a Sierra Cosworth but unfortunately they are unavailable tired Burtons and my local Ford dealer both said the same.

The Burtons salesman said why not try using one of though FSE power boost valves? Would this be ok as they have a different ratio to a standard FPR (Boost Valves are 1.7:1 compaired to the standard 1:1 ratio) I think FSE also make normal adjustable FPR's with standard 1:1 ratio would that be better?

Or should I go down the other route and buy one of though £30 adjustable FPR on Ebay? (They seem abit cheap and nasty and give me the impression they wont last long)

Any help would be great.

which sums up my own dilema:help:

heres a cheapy with free post. anyone heard of this site/company ?
http://www.nicenewcar.co.uk/cgi-bin/partsearch.cgi?Type=Fuel+Pressure+Regulator&Make=Universal&k=&Search=Search

alladdin

08-04-2008, 23:59

well it seems they sell on ebay as well ! here it is for £24 inc post and a gauge !
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuel-Pressure-Regulator-with-Gauge-Universal-fit-NEW_W0QQitemZ380013855824QQihZ025QQcategoryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

now this is obviously too cheap to be any good:watchout:

so im off now to buy one :doh::D

ill let you know if it leaks:bolt:

grs2000

10-04-2008, 12:51

that looks suspiciously like mine..... they actually look ok . I've had one in bits and it is well made with no burrs etc. Got to be worth a punt.:)

alladdin

10-04-2008, 13:16

well regardless of quality, service is a1 :)
came today already ! the kits comprehensive with hose clamps and tail joiner as well as some pipe.

anybody know what the machined plates with tails in are for ? pressure range ?
http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/4/2008041012125538331regulator kit.JPG

close upof regulator

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/4/2008041012126820374regulator.JPG

will try and plumb it all in asap for a test run :thumb:

alladdin

11-04-2008, 23:04

not a real update, but i tested the f.p.reg today on air and it seems fine:clap:

now just some temp plumbing and off we go again.
i know rocol do a "oil seal" but is there a common thread seal thats fuel proof ??

alladdin

13-04-2008, 16:22

last night i bolted on the gsxr bodies and plumbed them in, i was only using ptfe tape on the threads so was pleased to have no leaks:)
today i tweaked the f.p to 3 bar, plugged in the ms, loaded a map and they fired up 1st time to a steady idle. they seem to run better than the std t/b:cool: and sound the nuts:woohoo:

ive got a vid clip so when i can get a link up i will:help:

alladdin

13-04-2008, 16:50

now in the movies section :banana:
http://forums.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=129696

took 20 secs to film and you can hear "her in doors" moaning for 10 of them !

stablau

13-04-2008, 23:15

Hi Aladdin That sounds great, i found the answer to the polarity of the injecters in a small line in the Extra EFI manual, its dos not matter as long as they are all the same.
Lots of problems getting a spark to nos 3 & 4 with the led not lighting up, spoke to Philip at Extra who told me how to trim the potentiometers to the VR sensor.
At the time there was no mention of this that i could find in the manual but i see now thats all fully explained in the new Q&A part. I have also gone over to Alpha N and was wondering could i have a copy of your map as i cant find any map in mine. This is a really steep learning curve for me beset with all sort off problems like voltage drops with a small battery by the back axle that spun the crossflow over but will just about nudge the Zetec. It certainly not helpful being a PC nupty!!!!! Cams, Piston Speed, Air Flow, Cam Timing Overlap 45 DCOE balancing and progression is mostly common sense but
Pulse Width Modulation is the start of a black art to me.
Cheers clive

grs2000

14-04-2008, 13:05

Fantastic to hear it running! very jealous, but inspirational at the same time. was reading up this weekend before I plug the iron in, have a question I cant find an answer for. Q. When you use the wasted spark setup, the ignition diagram I have seen shows pin 6 firing 1 pair of plugs. Though on the fuel diagram pin 6 goes to the cam sensor, required for the wasted spark setup??? Any clues, oh btw this is not using edis. Once again well done getting it up and running.:thumb:

alladdin

14-04-2008, 16:00

grs2000.
pin 6 is spark o/p B (36 is A) as far as i can see ?
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/Drawings/4cy_Coil_Pack_Wiring.JPG
and
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/Drawings/WiringLoom_VR_Hall.JPG
ive not looked at the internal mods tho i see pin 6 is wired from spr 4

cam sensors are normaly used for sequential.(ms2?)

stablau.....
the map i had running in vid was an alpha n map. kindly supplied by a guy on the success storys part of ms forum. seemed v.good !
pm me your email for a copy:thumb:
it would work for you too grs, just need to alter the config settings to your spark setup ? should you want to try alpha n.

grs2000

14-04-2008, 18:11

I was planning to go Alpha N. Is your map from fatbald bloke? I had a look at his site. He's done well.

alladdin

14-04-2008, 20:08

yep thats him, ian prior is his name i beleive. pm me your e mail if you need the map.

Stu.C

15-04-2008, 00:10

It's all a bit beyond me, but it's fascinating stuff none the less :thumb:

How long were you grinning for first time it fired up? :D

alladdin

15-04-2008, 11:17

i'll let you know stu (when i stop:D:D)

wildo105e

16-04-2008, 09:48

Top stuff they don't half make the mundano sound sweet. Get a clutch in and drive it:D Nice to hear the wife moaning sounded just like my garage:thumb:try bleeding brakes with her next:stu:

bluers2000mk1

16-04-2008, 12:12

Hi alladdin......

Just wondering if the map you have will run my throttle bodies as I'am using st170 injectors??

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/4/200804161110224610phph24qPzAM.jpg

I haven't even got an ECU yet but just trying to sort out the best route to take to get them to work.............

alladdin

16-04-2008, 15:28

yes mate im sure it would run it, you would need to trim the req'd fuel setting but thats normal. it should be remembered that any map not derived specificaly for a given engine should be regarded as purely a "base" or starting map. thats what it is to me.

bluers2000mk1

16-04-2008, 16:40

If poss could I have a copy of the map? Then when I get the ecu as you said I already have a base map.....

Also if you want you can have my old bike injectors as a spare set....(free)...

alladdin

16-04-2008, 20:43

If poss could I have a copy of the map? Then when I get the ecu as you said I already have a base map.....

Also if you want you can have my old bike injectors as a spare set....(free)...

:drool: im liking you :lol::thumb:
pm me your email matey:popcorn:
i have several maps using the MAP rather than alphaN, a few were tried above and ran it fine on the std t/b but i didnt try many on my t/b's.
is there a way of posting them up in the referance section for members ?

Shanksy

20-04-2008, 01:46

hey, that sounded the bollocks :drool:
i think you need to fire a clutch in that thing .. ..

alladdin

20-04-2008, 17:11

hey, that sounded the bollocks :drool:
i think you need to fire a clutch in that thing .. ..

i ripped the motor out today:dunno: will be in scrappies this week.

traven16v

22-04-2008, 20:33

Is there any chance you could email me a copy of the map your using please?

I tried starting mine today and I'm not really getting anything apart from a 3sec prime of the injection pump. First off couldnt get the laptop to communicate with the Megasquirt but managed to sort that.

The main problem I have at the moment is that im getting no spark. Where did you take your feed from for the coil pack? manual said something about wiring into the same circuit as the fuel pump?

Im very confused the MS1 manual is very in depth but what it could do with is a quick start guide or a check list?

alladdin

22-04-2008, 23:31

map posted :thumb: a 3 sec prime sounds a bit ott :clint:
might be flooding. more likely a silly wiring issue as both myself and wildo105e found out:D
its recomended to supply the coilpack live from the fuel pump (ie the same live you run to fp, controlled by ms) as its then only live when ecu wants the motor to run.

post all your setup details in a thread if you still get issues and im sure between us we can sort it:thumb: need to know firmware version and whether edis etc
did you "calibrate" the throttle pot ?

wildo105e

23-04-2008, 10:30

:D Must agree human error seems the biggest problem. Some gotchas i went through.
Check the ecu is getting live on cranking. You will see this if you look at the realtime display under tuning. I still have a temp lead right from the battery to power the MS at the mo:thumb: Remember if you do this that you will have to unplug the supply to stop the car running.

Here you can also check your cranking rpm i think the 200 rpm is about the norm. If this low it may indicate trigger wheel sensor issues.

Check you are getting a spark if yes check with a timing light that is about 10 deg BTDC on cylinder 1. If not you may have the coil pack back to front hence 180 deg out (a classic)

Check all your sensors are reading realistically in particular the engine temp as this will affect the cold starting i.e ECU may think the engine is warm when it is cold.

I found once all the these were checked it fired straight away but it took a while to trace them all out.:confused:
My coil also runs from the same live as the fuel pump.

Keep us posted we like a runner:thumb:

traven16v

23-04-2008, 19:30

I think I just got abit too keen and thought it would just start without any glitches lol.

I found a check list to do before starting the engine off the extraEFI website where I bought my MS1 extra from in December.

I've read up abit and I think one of the problems is a trigger problem as im not showing any RPM in Megatune when cranking. I've set the TPS dont think its reading 100% throttle (but I know thats because I need to wind in the pedal stop). I'm pretty sure the wiring to the VR sensor is fine, is there any other common problems or reasons why it doesnt see its cranking?

I know im getting 12volts at the injectors but 0.18 or something at the coil pack feed. Does that ballast resistor need to be wired up for it to run?

I also think I need to reset the measurements for the coolant temp sensor.

I will check the wiring again tomorrow evening and post the findings.

Cheers.

wildo105e

24-04-2008, 09:39

I think everyone gets keen with this stuff then gets knocked back a bit:stu:. The wiring on the VR sensor could be back to front (i have only heard about that though) apparrently you can pass some netal over it really quickly and it should show in MS (effectively acting like the trigger wheel). The likelest reason for it not working is that it is too far away from the trigger wheel. It has to be really accurate and within 1mm all round i think.

The coil pack does definately need 12v as the live from the fuel pump is just that.
:thumb:Keep at it.

alladdin

24-04-2008, 12:00

did you test the unit on a stim ?
i will assume no, and that its working anyway if it was bought complete ?
as stated try reversing polarity on the vr sensor if its a two wire, this is common apparently.
again as stated the coil pack needs a 12v supply, also bare in mind that its actualy 2 coilpacks in one, coil one feeds 1+4 while coil 2 fires cyls 2+3 .
one advantage of using edis as we did is that you can disconect the ms and eliminate it from the equasion since edis will run 10deg in limp mode and should start the car.
check your wiring in the first instance, theres issues it seems:thumb:
now that the excitement has drained you can get back to the install proper:D

traven16v

24-04-2008, 19:57

Didnt have much time this evening to have a look.

I removed the VR sensor from the Mk2 and tried it on my mk6 escort ((VR sensor is same part no.) and it started no problem. Fitted it back in the Mk2 and connected up a Multimeter on AC volts and cranked it over, got 0.6 -0.7 volts (battery is a little low on charge) compared that with the mk6 escort and got 0.9 volts. So it safe to say that its not the VR sensor and that the MS1 would pick that up?

Read something about adjusting the pots in the MS to stabalise the RPM in Megatune ( although Im not even seeing cranking RPM in Megatune?

I have an EDIS module and harness plug. But my MS is the Wasted spark option from ExtraEFI website fully built by them and not the EDIS version. How do I wire in the EDIS module and bypass the MS1 temporary to make sure it all runs?

alladdin

24-04-2008, 23:52

there might be a drawing earlier in this thread:thinking:
basicaly you wire the vr and coilpack to edis with a live and earth. i guess the ms needs its tach signal from edis"pip" (pin 24?) for the injection side but the other lead "saw" is left off (36?)
heres a drawing
http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/4/200804242248748292Edis_Wiring.jpg

back to your present setup, re check the pin/cable conections. are you using these diagrams
ign side

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/4/20080424224872061164cy_Coil_Pack_Wiring.jpg

fuel side

http://media.turbosport.co.uk/2008/4/200804242248952759WiringLoom_VR_Hall.jpg