View Full Version : 420 bhp 4x4 engine re-build.
Im going to re-build the engine on the 4x4,but I want big power aswell.The target is 420 bhp and 420 ib/ft.So far Ive got a big list of tuning parts but I dont have a clue on what cams or cam it will need or what to have done with the head and crank,will it need lightening and balancing.
This is the list so far: rs 500 i/cooler, t3/4 hybrid,low compression pistons,400 injectors,grp-a breather,swirl pot,3 bar map,hi-pres oil pump,long stud conversion,tri-metal h/gasket,dyno and re-map.
Can anyone say if im going in the right direction with this list and can you think of any other parts I might need,thanks everyone.
Be better to use 403 (grey) injectors. Double valve springs, standard exhaust cam will do if in good condition, BD10 inlet or a pair of BD10's, and of course vernier puleys to time them correctly, although i don't know what you would time them to. Only use a genuine Mountune 4 layer WRC gasket, they cost £325 from Mountune, don't be tempted by the other cheap copies i.e. cometic. You don't necessarily need it to be dynoed, if the parts used are of a known quantity, and the C/R is known, a suitable map has probably already been written for it, and minor tweeks to the map can be made in car.
The crank, flywheel and clutch cover will need to be balanced as one unit. The rods will also need balancing. Nothing needs lightening, the standard bottom end can rev to 9k revs. Head converted to grp a spec, speak to Tony @ turbosystems about this bit and the cams / timing / mapping turbosystems@turbosystemsmotorsport.co.uk
HTH's http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/grin.gif
4x400 light blues should get you there with T34 turbo with .63 exh housing, lower comp pistons:- about 7.2:1 i think should do it to keep the response up off boost, BD15/14cams, Gp-A spec head and inlet lightening can always help with the revving of the heavy engine parts. +all the usual RS500I/C, breather, water cooling etc. PJ Motorsport dynoed one of similar spec recently, to the tune of 410bhp. Tell PJ that Mr.C sent you for a quote, its not cheap tho!
Fook me,how much 4 a wrc headgasket http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clint.gif http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clint.gif http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clint.gif
Derek_Burleigh
15-05-2003, 09:04
I agree with Wes, you're much better off with Grey injectors (403s).
Too many people have melted 400bhp engines on light blues.
If you go for BD10s then time them at about 112deg. on both inlet and exhaust.
Apart from that, everything else that Wes says is correct. http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clap.gif Which is rather suprising really!! http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/grin.gif
The main reasion in my opinion that people melt cars with 400's in is nothing to do with the injector choice but more the turbo choice ! .......what Clints gone mad I here you say http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clint.gif .
I have seen a few cars running small t34 turbos running 400+ HP these are running to 30PSI and as such there is no boost limit set in the maps, as soon as they come off the dyno and into a car where the enviorment changes; air gets denser etc. the boost rises and the injectors go flat out.
Greys on the other hand can supply a lot more fuel and if the map goes FF at the top of the load map they will have more chance of handling any overload scenario's.
However you should really have a boost limit in any chip where there is a possibility of running out of fuel, the only way to do this on a 400HP+ car is:
1) fit a properly sized turbo that will make the power on lower boost.
2) fit larger or enough injectors to fuel for the worst possible case.
3) fit a 4 or 5 bar map sensor.
I agree with Wes, you're much better off with Grey injectors (403s).
Too many people have melted 400bhp engines on light blues.
Exactley, they are too near their maximum working load at this level of power.
Apart from that, everything else that Wes says is correct. http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clap.gif Which is rather suprising really!! http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/grin.gif
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/moon.gif I've been listening to that worzel gumage fella, he knows his stuff http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/jester.gif
Oh IMO for 420HP I would fit a pair of BD14's timed at 110 degrees.
The issue now is where to have the block converted to the long stud kit,and cylinder head converted to group-a,and the balancing.Id rather have all the machining,porting,balancing done at the same place,what kind of money would this lot be and who does it,cheers.
IMA_Racing
15-05-2003, 13:08
400bhp is the max out of blues..Mike Rainbirds engine has told us this..and he runs upped fuel pressure and monty spec inc .55 WRC turbo....Go greys..(avalible from me at ridiculously low prices..:D)...T34 .63 should see a nice reliable 420BHP.As for cams BD10's will be fine for that spec if you go bigger turbo dont use 10's simple as they DO cause surge.You wont need double valve springs either with 10's...if your on a budget i would go std head bolts and one of Clints £150 WRC gaskets.Go 7.5-1 comp ratio and use PROPER forged pistons not MAHLE,i only say this cause the forged are stronger so if it runs lean for whatever reason they will survive longer before melting..LOL...As for 5bar i dont think its nessecary unless your gonna run over a held 2.2bar which you wont.
Im more confused now.Theres so much of it,thanks for trying.
Ive had a price for a 400+ engine fitted and dynoed,£5200.But as we have a garage business that wouldnt make sense.Now im thinking of going for a pretty standard re-build to around 350/360,the 400+ is just too much money,i would if the car was 1 owner and 30k miler though.
so if the chip is mapped right, boost limited etc 400`s will do the job. but it is better to over fuel than under fuel, yeah, so i guess your right. what is the service intervals on greys, about 1500 miles because of bore wash? but what would you reccomend on a hard driven cossie on blues/ T34 etc? anyone help me?
Bore wash ? you can get bore wash on yellows if the ecu is mapped wrong I have never expierenced bore wash on any of my engines running my chips with 403 greys.
Derek runs 8 greys in his Cossie, and his engine was built in 1994 (so TS told me) and hasn't borewashed his engine, that's nearly 10 years, think it would have done it by now if it was going to! It's all down to mapping, greys doesn't automatically mean bore washing, yet another cossie myth http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/grin.gif
400's will get you 420 bhp, but you are seriously risking an engine meltdown as they are going to be close to their maximim working load, and for what, 400's cost the same as 403's, so it's not a cost issue.
An injector shouldn't go above 80% of it's maximum, you can get 500bhp out of 4 greys, but no-one in their right mind would drive it like it on a daily basis!
IMA_Racing
16-05-2003, 22:42
ROFL @ 500bhp out of 4 greys.....UNLESS you are on leaded 4 star fuel...Makes me laugh at what people beleive...As for Dereks car he drives slow..hence why he ran BD10's until now cause of the surge issue... http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif...how do we REALLY know he aint had probs????Do you think any car from a well known tuners would admit to any probs...ROFL....The world is full of cons...BUT not me i get the pi$$ taken out of my build BUT they dont realise i tell EVERYONE everything that happens...cause i aint got nowt to loose REMEMBER THAT!!! http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/moon.gif
Phil, i'm pretty sure the rs500 touring cars never ran on leaded fuel, they ran on super unleaded...... Believe what you want, ive heard 3 seperate tuners say that 500bhp on 4 greys is acheivable, hell you even just said it yourself, does it really matter what fuel is used? Don't think race teams do! And no-one on here has aken the piss out of your engine, remember what site your on now dude! Have a nice day http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/grin.gif
FAST_FORD
17-05-2003, 08:53
i believe that 500 hp is possible from 4 gray, with a high base fuel pressure, of cause cycle times for the injectors wouldnt be as yo want them but hay! i wouldnt personal have a 500 hp 4 gray car when you could run 8 injectors and be on the safe side!
anyway 400 - 450 - 500 hp cars are all fast as fuck!
gareth
IMA_Racing
17-05-2003, 10:06
Gareth now your talking different ball game...upping pressure...that aint a good thing to do is it?....450bhp is the most your get from greys with a T4 but thats on the limit...that is a proper dyno test......Lets face it here even 8 greens so called 500 engines are not even making 500..LOL.
FAST_FORD
17-05-2003, 10:31
there isnt nothing wrong with upping the fuel pressure aslong as it dont go over the limit! at the end of the day your pressure reg is upping the fuel pressure on boost anyway as it is manifold referanced!
gareth
there isnt nothing wrong with upping the fuel pressure aslong as it dont go over the limit! at the end of the day your pressure reg is upping the fuel pressure on boost anyway as it is manifold referanced!
gareth
As long as you upgrade your entire fuel system to be safe aeroquipped lines and a properly rated fuel pressure regulator and pump.
FAST_FORD
17-05-2003, 12:46
there isnt nothing wrong with upping the fuel pressure aslong as it dont go over the limit! at the end of the day your pressure reg is upping the fuel pressure on boost anyway as it is manifold referanced!
gareth
of cause http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/laugh.gif
As long as you upgrade your entire fuel system to be safe aeroquipped lines and a properly rated fuel pressure regulator and pump.
hi all and thanks for the info, not been logged on this site long, but already impressed with the info, spec of cars, experiences etc, great site cheeRS http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/clap.gif Am heading for 320bhp ish http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/banana.gif on my 2wd sapphire cozzy, can anyone recommend a software specialist, is ahmed bajoo`s chip map writing as gud as they say? what options do i have, any ideas/input welcome, what do you guys use?
IMA_Racing
18-05-2003, 15:51
Mate...you cant go wrong with an ahmed chip...or any company really...its the things around it that need to be spot on..ie fuel pressure..MOST IMPORTANT.
dosnt Collins performance reside in Leistershire ?
Clint,
Collins are in Congleton, Cheshire.
Ah lol who's in Leistershire then ?
GGR if i remember correctly!
tis GGR, great products, just down the road, great for a discount http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/wink.gif 3month wait just to say hi to a spanner man. £45+per hour, josh is about the only guy there with a cosworth, strange that none of the mechanics have one eh? hmm, they knew about all the stuff i`ve learnt since owning1, LOL. thanks for the advice, bayjoo software me thinks. quick question, can i fit a RS500 throttle to my2wd saff, will it help performance, what else (sensors etc) will i need to run it, i will shortly have a T35 .63exh and RS500 int. http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/cool.gif <font color="green"> </font>
IMA_Racing
20-05-2003, 00:17
I beleive you can but no point as the restriction is the elbow of a 4x4/2wd....The 2wd throttle will flow 500plus BHP..see Mike Rainbirds Sapphire..RIP.. http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/sad.gif...oh and my 450 plus BHP Sapphire http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Derek_Burleigh
20-05-2003, 08:30
Phil,
The only problems I've had with mine are a couple of broken T4s and a couple of broken diffs (but that won't be happening again!).
Also had a coolant leak from a porous head a couple of years ago so took the opportunity to do a full rebuild as the head had to be changed anyway.
You won't know what fast is until you've been up the road in mine Phil!!
IMA_Racing
20-05-2003, 09:22
Del......never underestimate IMA Racing..... http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/moon.gif http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/shit.gif http://www.turbosport.co.uk/images/smilies/jester.gif
suzukigsxr
21-05-2003, 19:18
an uprated gearbox with front prop to suit aswell
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