Duratec raceline dry sump kit problem!!!!

Hi, just wondering if anyone has experienced a problem with fitting the Raceline Duratec Dry Sump to the engine block.? I tried it today and it rocks on the ARP studs. Even if the studs are trimmed away down there is still not enough clearance to allow the sump to sit down flush with the block. Not sure how to tackle this problem so any help would be great. Surely it should allow for ARP studs rather than normal studs. I have considered switching back to the normal studs to see if this will provide enough clearance but I don't have them to trial fit.All comments welcome guys. Thanks

http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010018.jpg
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010022.jpg
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010019.jpg
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010021.jpg

I had no problems with this at all with my ARP studs, but you have to make sure the studs are seated all the way home. When I did mine on a second hand 2.0 block, it took several "go's" with an allen key on the stud to seat them all the way home, I would not have tried, except right from the start one of the studs went in further than the others, so I lubed the others and got them all to that same depth. From memory there is about 2mm clearance from the end of the studs to the sump face.

If they do not seat all the way home, I would consider shortening the studs, were they go in the block by a few mm, but I think you will find you can seat them more, even though the instructions suggest putting them in finger tight.

Thanks Neil, I have measured from the bottom of the washer where it meets the block to the top of the allen head and the height is 17mm. Even if I do manage to get the stud fully home or shortened to reach fully home by getting the allen head lower it is still going to cause an obstruction with the sump. Not sure what other options I have. Would you happen to know which way the 2 baffles fit on the sump? I think I am okay with the larger one but the long thin one I'm not sure sure which direction it bolts, down or up. In the picture I have shown it up but it could also fit down. I have emailed Raceline but unfortunately they never reply.

Thanks for your help. I managed to get the studs all the way home and give me enough clearance for the larger baffle. I couldn't get the small thinner baffle plate fitted so I have left it off. Do you think that will make much difference.? Raceline didnt supply a detailed diagram of the fitment for the sump and there are a few things I am having trouble working out where they live. In the picture are the 3 pieces and any clues to where they live would be much appreciated. Also do you know if the Oil Pump supplied with the sump should have included the gear and chain or do I need to buy these extra.? Appreciate all your help mate as you have a really fantastic learning thread.
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...5507025007.jpg

I haven't fitted up the baffles yet so can't comment on that.

As to your mystery parts, the alloy round plug taps (with a plastic hammer) into the front face of the sump were the timing chain cover meets it.
The threaded blanking plug goes in the matching tapped hole towards the rear of the sump, both of these plugs are to allow you to clean out the oil galleries in the sump.

The sprocket and chain are AFAIK the standard ones, that came with the engine.

I may be up at Raceline this week and I will definitely be seeing my mate Mick www.attreeautos.co.uk who has put these on many Duratec's, so can you email me any questions with a picture of the problem and I will get you a definitive answer from someone who knows what they are talking about.

With regard to Raceline and emails, yeah that can be a problem sometimes, you really need to call (use Skype) and talk to Pete, as in 8 years of knowing him, he has never sent me an email, but has given me hours of advice in person or over the phone. Chris is really the admin side and of limited technical knowledge.

It doesn't help that Pete and Chris are working in different locations at the moment.

I haven't fitted up the baffles yet so can't comment on that.

As to your mystery parts, the alloy round plug taps (with a plastic hammer) into the front face of the sump were the timing chain cover meets it.
The threaded blanking plug goes in the matching tapped hole towards the rear of the sump, both of these plugs are to allow you to clean out the oil galleries in the sump.
Can't remember were the tube goes

The sprocket and chain are AFAIK the standard ones, that came with the engine.

I may be up at Raceline this week and I will definitely be seeing my mate Mick www.attreeautos.co.uk who has put these on many Duratec's, so can you email me any questions with a picture of the problem and I will get you a definitive answer from someone who knows what they are talking about.

With regard to Raceline and emails, yeah that can be a problem sometimes, you really need to call (use Skype) and talk to Pete, as in 8 years of knowing him, he has never sent me an email, but has given me hours of advice in person or over the phone. Chris is really the admin side and of limited technical knowledge.

It doesn't help that Pete and Chris are working in different locations at the moment.

Thanks again for all your help. Yea I rang Peter McEwan last night and he told me where the plug and tap screw went on the sump. He reckons I need to bin the ARP studs and put the standard ones back in to allow everything to fit properly. He says I need to fit the smaller baffle as it acts as an oil scraper for the crankshaft. I will have to track down a sprocket, chain and guides as well as some as standard studs. The pipe is from the throttle bodies. I will email you again soon. Cheers Rob

Cool, well it is going to be interesting to see if I have the same problem with my ARP's, just as well I kept the original crank web bolts

Let me know how you go. I have had to source some original bolts.

hi guys i bought some arp from cosworth wonder if i will end up same problem , had anyone try these , can the std bolts hold 300hp at 8500rpm ?

Standard bolts are fine, no problems with strength, they are used by Caterham and Raceline for most of their engine builds

Further to this discussion on bolts, just had a long chat with Pete McEwen at Raceline, when they did the Supercharged Duratec Caterham with 330bhp he found that the ARP bolts caused damage to the crank basket casting, as the bolts do not stretch properly and are "too hard". They ONLY use the standard OEM bolts and have had no issues with them and this is on numerous race cars and several 300bhp plus engines

They had them in stock, as you cannot get them from Ford Parts Dept, they can also be reused at least once if not more

Thanks, yes I will replace them with the standard bolts. Pity as they cost me a few bob but thats life.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smicker

Hi, just wondering if anyone has experienced a problem with fitting the Raceline Duratec Dry Sump to the engine block.? I tried it today and it rocks on the ARP studs. Even if the studs are trimmed away down there is still not enough clearance to allow the sump to sit down flush with the block. Not sure how to tackle this problem so any help would be great. Surely it should allow for ARP studs rather than normal studs. I have considered switching back to the normal studs to see if this will provide enough clearance but I don't have them to trial fit.All comments welcome guys. Thanks

http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010018.jpg
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010022.jpg
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010019.jpg
http://media2.turbosport.co.uk/2009/...6092010021.jpg

---

Reviving an old thread, but your small crank scraper is backwards.
I just received my Raceline kit, and will be clearancing everything to fit this weekend.

What hot oil pressure have you experienced with your kit? What are your bearing clearances, and what weight oil?

Thanks,
David

I've shortened my ARP studs to be flush with the nuts, but it's still going to require some cutting of the scraper plates for clearance, and possibly chamfering the holes in the plates and using flat head screws to secure the small plate.

I ran into another problem which took a while to identify.
Even with the shortened studs, I was unable to get the pump to engage it's port on the block. The studs were all clear, but the only way I could get it to go together was to loosen the pump mount bolts until I had it in place.

Obviously, this wasn't going to work, so I inked potential interference sopts, and finally found that the pump adapter itself was sticking up above the block surface, preventing the sump from laying flat and sliding back to engage the pump port.

A couple minutes on the belt sander, and that hurdle is cleared.

Now on to clearancing the scrapers, and whatever else needs to be done to fit properly.

You'd think that any sump designed for performance use would be designed to clear the most common performance main studs on the market without all this extra work. :-o
I use ARP studs on EVERY engine build, even my street cars. If it's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

I was going to add pics, but this site won't accommodate them due to size. Oh well.

Is this board dead?

No - why? were you expecting a reply to a statement? If you don't want to resize your pictures then use a hosting site - there are a few after photobucket shafted every forum site!

No, but my previous post had some questions, and it hasn't been replied to.
No posts here for 8 years made me wonder if anyone had even seen my posts.
My statements were to give more info on my setup, as well as possibly help out the next guy who wants to run the Raceline sump with main studs.

I did compress my pics as much as possible.
Every other site I use has had no problems, but this one has more restrictive photo rules.

Thanks for the tip on hosting pics. I'll give it a try when I get a chance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cobranut

No, but my previous post had some questions, and it hasn't been replied to.
No posts here for 8 years made me wonder if anyone had even seen my posts.
My statements were to give more info on my setup, as well as possibly help out the next guy who wants to run the Raceline sump with main studs.

I did compress my pics as much as possible.
Every other site I use has had no problems, but this one has more restrictive photo rules.

Thanks for the tip on hosting pics. I'll give it a try when I get a chance.

---

most forum users click the new posts button so IF the subject matter, i.e raceline dry sump kits on duratec, are of interest they will of been seen and maybe replied, the two posts back to back rather loose the question, especially as it appears to be aimed at Dobuy in any case. in all probability plenty like myself saw your post but didnt have anything usefull to add so said nothing.

but seeing as you obviously hanker for some input heres my thoughts! most duratec users as still running standard main bolts ( there are a lot of unnecessary arp applications) and secondly theres every chance the dry sump kit was designed before the arp stud kit was even available, in which case perhaps arp should modify there design to suit common raceline products lol! if your going to the trouble to build an engine which actually NEEDS the stud kit its hardly a big deal to make them and the sump work together, although there is a fair bit of evidence in this thread that arp main studs are a bad idea on this engine, if you have the experience you seem to suggest you have, you will know its actually rare for modified bits from different sources to work together without modification

Thanks Graham.
I'm not knocking Raceline's product, it's a really cool design, and they have been great to work with during an international transaction.
It just seems like it was unnecessary to make the clearance so tight that the extra fraction of an inch the studs take up causes interference.

There are 5 locations that i had to machine, as well as modifying the scrapers for flat head screws instead of button head.
They could've easily made the sump 1/4" deeper to allow for studs without major mods. It would still be much shallower than a wet sump.

Stud fasteners are almost always better than bolts, especially when installed in an aluminum block.
They're stronger, and just as importantly, prevent wearing out the threads in the block when repeatedly torqued during rebuilds.
I'll be spinning this thing to 9,000rpm, so a little extra insurance against main cap walk is welcome.

For those who noted bore distortion, the block should be machined with the main caps and honing plate torqued to spec, which assures the bores are accurate.

Thanks,
David

As graham says i generally look at new posts unless i need to search for a specific answer.

Resizing pics on a mac is pretty easy to do or post from tapatalk on you mobile then edit the thread on pc or mac etc

I use both methods and works well.