Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

Hi everyone, we talked about it in the power plots section, but I want to have a thread here so we can talk a little about everything :)

This is my race car:
The car is a 1978 1600 Sport Escort, used just for racing in the National Historic Touring Car championship currently.
It's within FIA security regulations and the championship regulations which are a lot, but to sum up, power to weight ratio limited at 7.5kg per HP (eg: a 750kg car can't have more than 100HP)

http://uploads.turbosport.co.uk/getr...psmet99k5t.jpg

The engine:
- 1600 Xflow
- 10.5:1 CR
- Pistons are VW 1.8 8v ones (It's hard to get good original pistons here in Uruguay so this is a common mod here. Photo attached)
- Lightened flywheel
- 42mm/34mm valves on a nicely ported head
- Iskenderian cam (.387 valve lift, 290deg advertised duration on a 108 lobe center, .024" valve lash for int and exh. 3500-7500 RPM band)
- Custom made Electronic ignition distributor
- 40DCOE32 Carbs on 55 idles, 30 pumps, 135 mains, 180 air correctors and F11 emulsion tubes.

http://uploads.turbosport.co.uk/getr...psmdjdfpvl.jpg
http://uploads.turbosport.co.uk/getr...pspwgenzb1.jpg


Hope you enjoy the post. Any ideas or suggestions for the car or engine are always welcome.
Thanks!

So to begin with the discussion, I'm in the process of making some coilovers for the front suspension. Currently is on custom spring on original struts.
I need to get the Springs from the UK, so I was wondering if you have any suggestions on brands, rate and length for a circuit car.
I was thinking around 500 lb, and I'm not sure how to calculate the length I need.
I saw Burton has a lot of options, are those good quality?

Thanks!
Peter

what sort of tyres do you use? normal road tyres, sticky track tyres like toyo 888, yoko 008r, or slicks. there are race escorts using 500lb front springs, but that is very stiff for an x/flow powered escort

We all have to use the same tyres as part of the championship rules. Those are Jinyu YH11 185 60 13 road tyres.
The 500lbs was just a guess, do you think it is too much? What do you suggest?
I have custom made springs now which are way stiffer than standard but don't really know how much. It certainly corners better than standard rate obviously.

with springs the more grip you generate the more body roll you get the stiffer the spring can go.

your tyres are regular road tyres and fairly narrow at that so 500lb will be far too stiff, so maybe 250lb even that may be a bit too stiff, most fast road x/flow powered escorts used 145-175lb

you can get race spring from many sources, the length you need will be dictated by your struts and ride height, about 10 inch long will probably work, you could try measuring to see what you need by putting the front suspension together WITHOUT any springs and jacking the body to the correct ride height and measuring from spring platform to top mount

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/moto...sion-steering/

That's a great method to measure length, thanks.
Let's say I use your method and measure 10 inches, I buy 10 inches springs, but when fitted and the car is not on the jack, the ride height would go lower as the engine weight is over them.
Do you know (aproximately of course) how much would the springs collapse once the car is on the floor?

2nd question: Burton springs are £21.12, Faulkners are 26 an eibachs are 75. Are those THAT better? I can pay the difference if it is worthy, but want to know if it is.

burton springs could be anything, nothing wrong with faulkners id buy them ( i have many times)

with a 250lb spring the suspension wont drop much with the weight of the car on it inch maybe two, so if you measure with the coilover collar in the middle of the height adjustment you should be able to get it where you want it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Graham

burton springs could be anything, nothing wrong with faulkners id buy them ( i have many times)

with a 250lb spring the suspension wont drop much with the weight of the car on it inch maybe two, so if you measure with the coilover collar in the middle of the height adjustment you should be able to get it where you want it

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That is great information! Thank you.
I already ordered the Adjustable spring seat kit, I'll start the measurements when I get it fitted then.
Have a good day
Peter

Some photos of the last race 2 weeks ago:
The water pump belt failed (or decided to get off the engine) and I had to retire.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...psv13bau0p.jpghttp://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...pso9yelp99.jpg

This is the latest power plot before the race. Blue lines are the newest, the yellow one was the one from the previous race.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...psxdqg0ri5.jpg

I still have to carry a lot of weight because of the power (Remember the regulation of 7.5 kg per HP)
If I can flatten the power curve at the top where it gets to around 125 I can unload 75kg, which is would be great cause it is really affecting the car's cornering and braking behavior.
I'm thinking about limiting the current advance curve, do you think it is possible to achieve it like that?
I really don't have much time to work on any other heavy change in the engine between races.

Thanks!
Peter

Hi everyone! Happy New year!

After that race where the water pump belt decided to go away I dismantled the engine to check, everything was OK except for valve seats so I had them done again and just put all together again.

The result: 10 hp less. And stops pulling around 1000RPM earlier
Tried jetting and ignition advance up and down with no luck.

Three months later, with the season ended I still can't find the reason.
The engine runs great except for a really sublte rattling at 6k.
Just removed the carbs and found one of the rear inspection covers is not there anymore. Could this be the reason? I find it very hard to believe.

Any wild guesses I can try?
Thanks in advance,

Peter

maybe your valve springs were marginal and if you recut the seats the valves would of sat a bit deeper in the head which would give even less valve spring pressure, enough just to tip it into valve bounce at high rpm

Well it is a possibility, and it is easy to check, I just have to measure the springs at their compressed state, I think the installed height should be 34mm.
But the power band has almost 10hp less pretty much everywhere, that shouldn't be the result if that was the issue, right?
I mean, I find it hard to believe that the power lost is not related to having dismantled the engine, but maybe it is something else and was just a coincidence.
Either way I want to find the issue before the season starts again, so welcome to ideas.

nice car

Thanks runner!!
Hi everyone! Hope you are enjoying your summer.

I have a quick question:
The regulations for the series I race in, allow the car have the front track width increased to a maximum of 5% more than the original one.
That being said, there are a lot of variants for the "original track with" as you may know that the different models with different rims have different track width.

I want to find the larger one so I can get the most of it, it can be in any kind of workshop manual or homologation scan.
I have searched https://historicdb.fia.com/cars/list

The biggest one I found there was 1295,4mm
Any ideas on where to find more data on this? (and hopefully a bigger number :) )

Thanks!

We ran a nice MK1 escort mexico in Shell Super riad saloons many years back. Running a 1600 x flow on yokohama 008 then when Toyo sponsored the series, we ran road spec Toyo.
Suspension had to be original pick up points etc.
We ran Twin cam front anti roll bar & 350 lb front springs. Also tweaked the 3 inner wing holes to gain camber ( no adj tca,s available back then)
We won a fair amount of races , along with the BARC home counties championship 3 times.
We must have put the car together about right.

Good afternoon everyone!

Yesterday I won a race for the first time ever! So I'm super excited to continue improving the car.
I think now is the time for a rear suspension upgrade.

My current setup is original 1600 Sport export setup (Anti Rollbar and multi leaf springs on uprated shocks and that's it)

I cannot use anyting that has not been fitted to the same model so I was thinking to go to:
- Remove ARB
- Add original Anti Tramp bars (like this kit https://www.motorsport-tools.com/esc...d-rs-type.html )
- Improve shocks (Don't know which)
- Add one more leaf to stiffen it to counteract the lack of ARB

BTW I am not allowed to use any kind of LSD

So my concern is: Will I miss the ARB on high speed corners? Will this improve grip when accelerating out of the corners?
Maybe I am completely wrong and this doesn't help at all with corner speeds, so I'd like to hear you thoughts on a full tarmac-circuit race car.

Thanks in advance,

Peter

well done on the first win,
i would keep the roll bar in preferance to tramp bars,can you fit a panard rod or axle location kit under the rules
leaf springs i would go single spring and set them[decamber] for the ride height you want,dont use blocks
gaz adjustables are a cheap option for experimenting with

Thank you!

Sadly I cannot fit/add any kind of bars or axle location kit that was not an original or optional equipment, and I think there was no escort mk2 with panhard or watts linkage.
Using original anchor points I can modify or make adjustable any kind of bar. For example, fitting an uprated ARB can be done, but I'm worried it would lift the inside wheel on hard cornering and make me lose traction (no LSD allowed)

Also I can use any shock that is NOT adjustable and fits in the original location.

I have heard a lot of S### about both ARB's and tramp bars, but it seems to be a lot of info on rally suspension setups but not for circuit racing on mk2's.

Yeah, I know this rules are really difficult to deal with, but there should be something I can do to make it better I guess.

Thanks in advance,
Peter

that makes it harder when your not allowed additions.
as graham says above stiffer springs/roll bars will stop it lifting wheels or lighter springs/stiffer roll bars
locate the rear axle as best you can ie weld spring plates to axle,throw the rubber away etc
bilstein gp1 type shocks used to be the thing for the road car classes over here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turbospud

that makes it harder when your not allowed additions.
as graham says above stiffer springs/roll bars will stop it lifting wheels or lighter springs/stiffer roll bars

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So the general idea would be NOT to put the tramp bars instead of the rollbar?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by turbospud

bilstein gp1 type shocks used to be the thing for the road car classes over here

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Like this for example? It says rally there
https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/bils...-bls24-008716/

Are they good for chasing seconds around the lap on a tarmac circuit?

Some photos of the last race for references on body roll and to make the thread more interesting :)

Attachment 84156

Attachment 84157

Attachment 84158

Attachment 84159

Attachment 84160

Hello,

with a car like yours, unarched, road tyres, limited bhp, no LSD, you will need a relatively soft sprung rear end.
To try a different setup change one item and one item only and see how it feels and how the lap times are (practice).
Maybe loosen the rear ARB on one end so it isn't working anymore.
And/or try a fast road type of rear damper, so not a stiff Bilstein; changing the dampers is a quick job so it can be undone in the same time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wxneypar

So the general idea would be NOT to put the tramp bars instead of the rollbar?
yes,a well mounted roll bar will give you a level of anti tramp,tramp bars wont give you roll control


Like this for example? It says rally there
https://www.demon-tweeks.com/uk/bils...-bls24-008716/
yes those ones gp1 type, but back in the day you got 2 different setting types,race or rally
Are they good for chasing seconds around the lap on a tarmac circuit?

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from where you are now,i dont think dampers will give seconds its going to be a combination of lots of things

Yeah! Im not even one second behind at qualy's, I should have said tenth's!

So it looks like my original idea of going stiffer on the rear is going to the trash now, is going softer the general opinion?

Regarding shocks, I couldn't find any uprated one that doesn't say Rally on it, what kind of rates am I looking for?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wxneypar

Some photos of the last race for references on body roll and to make the thread more interesting :)

Attachment 84156

Attachment 84157

Attachment 84158

Attachment 84159

Attachment 84160

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its looks pretty good i would have said,maybe drop the front ride height a bit,
it looks as if your on around 3deg camber,5deg castor,i found less of both worked better with softer springs.
as minilight says change one thing at a time and see how it feels

As turbospud said on the photos the car looks to be "sitting" ok.
Do you have a movie (youtube ?) of your car in action?
For rear dampers look for yellow Koni's; these are adjustable for rebound but only when removed from the car. There is no button like the Gaz dampers have.

I do! Let me upload it to youtube so I can share here!

Just promise you'll look at the car and not my (poor) handling of it :P

As requested :) Personal best lap this weekend:
Any kind of feedback is well received

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6iXEnaLenQ

Nice.
Think the limiting factor are the tyres (and bhp).
Spending lots of money and time on the car will give a few tenths maybe.
Get some advice from more experienced drivers on what lines to drive on the track and left-foot braking etc.

Car looks good. 160km/u straight line. Nice for a engine with 134hp. what axle ratio do you use?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miniliteman

Nice.
Think the limiting factor are the tyres (and bhp).
Spending lots of money and time on the car will give a few tenths maybe.
Get some advice from more experienced drivers on what lines to drive on the track and left-foot braking etc.

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Well, as I'm the mechanic and the driver, that would mean I'm a better as a mechanic than as a driver!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arieke

Car looks good. 160km/u straight line. Nice for a engine with 134hp. what axle ratio do you use?

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Thank you! It's 126HP now because with 134 I had to carry a lot of weight per the regulations. Using 4.12 axle ratio!

Hi everyone! How are you doing?

2020 racing season here is about to start, and as part of the new regulations in my series, for RWD vehicles to be able to "compete" with FWD fairly, they let us add one additional fixing point in the front suspension.

So for my case, it would be tension or compression struts.

I've been reading the numerous threads here about one vs the other and I think I should go with:
- Tension struts
- A new stiffer ARB with droplinks

This way I can go back to my 450lb springs. In the last race I tried some 550lbs ones and I loved how well the car would behave in corner transit and exit (noticeable difference in traction out of the corners as the car was all flatter, less bodyroll). The con's: couldn't brake, the car wont move the weight to the front and it would lock on every braking zone.

With a stiffer ARB, I can get the benefits of the stiffer springs on cornering but with no issues at braking.

Am I making any sense? Do you agree or have better ideas on how to get the best of the new regulation?

Thanks!!

perhaps softening the damping a bit would of got you more weight transfer? i would of been tempted to try a 500lb spring

Regarding the damping, I could do with the rear ones in expansion, as the front ones are not adjustable. But yeah, good catch.

Regarding this:

Quote:

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So for my case, it would be tension or compression struts.

I've been reading the numerous threads here about one vs the other and I think I should go with:
- Tension struts
- A new stiffer ARB with droplinks

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would you agree with tension stuts for my case?
Thanks!!

Hi there,

I hope you are still racing.

Is your car fitted with a rear anti-roll bar?

I am! Well, championship has not started this year cause of covid, but it will eventually.
I'm building a new engine for this year :)

It is fitted with the original rear ARB on polybushes. Don't think it does much tbh. Never removed it either.