Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I should go for a longer rod or longer piston. Both are inexpensive today so making the block or head weaker is not an option for me in a turbo engine. If you are going to machine the head you need to take out a lot more material as if you would machine the block. In both situations, for a heavy turbo engine, I'm worried.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
OK, suggestions for someone that makes a longer rod to correct this?
I already spent the time and money on the pistons, would rather not spec a new set.
I Ebayed and found this;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/For-Ford-F...EAAOSwzvlW~NCE
Stupidly cheap, can you trust them?
Specification
Type: 4340 EN24 H-Beam Connecting Rod
Quantity: 4 Pieces as showing in picture
Bolts: Including ARP 2000 bolts
Bolts size: Genuine ARP 2000 3/8" bolts
Tolerance: Balanced to +/- 1 gram in set
Note: Extra cost for upgrading to ARP L19 bolts
Warranty: Limited lifetime warranty
Dimensions
Center to center length: 129.54mm
Big end diameter: 55mm
Small end diameter: 24mm
Big end width: 25.8mm
Small end width: 25.8mm
I think I would land at 8.5:1 and that would be perfect.
Thanks
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
All the research I made shows that the chinese Maxpeedingrods are worth a try so I ordered a set.
Let's hope that is what I get :-)
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I still stock several different lengths of Steel Pinto con rods. Otherwise you can have any length build at DP in Greece.
Would 129,5 mm do the job for you?
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Thanks, yes, it would but I already clicked the order on the Maxpeedingrods. Guess I should have asked you first...
If you like to give me a quote you can pm me or send an e-mail to ulander@sfro.com, maybe I can cancel the order, not sure.
Regards
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Dear Gustaf,
Mine seems to be 133,5 mm, so to long for you. At least 3 sets. In the very beginning I could buy one set each time. Than there business increased and started to be arrogant and I had to buy in sets of 5 each time. Little later I stopped building engines so still got stock from Pinto and S2000 Honda (2 different lengths).
These are really good quality rods. All China but good ones. Maxspeeding rods should be OK by now. Mine where the same as sold in USA at company's like Brian Crower etc... It was in the very beginning, Maxspeeding rods etc.. did not even exist. At the moment the question for cheap rods increased some silly company's has also joined the business but I believe most left already.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Thanks, I appreciate the input. 133,5 will be too long unfortunately.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I know, I did not even know they sold 130 mm. It used to be 133,5 or longer (no idea what next size used to be).
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
What kind of compression ratio would you end up using cosworth pistons and those 133.5mm rods?
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I think piston will be fully out of the block. If I got it right it is 5 mm extra? You need to cut almost 3 mm from top? Maybe with a thicker Cometic steel gasket. I would use shorter pistons to get it right. If you can safe cut the pistons so far compression should be close to correct for a turbo.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Ah ok, was just a passing thought as a cheap way to build a bottom end for turbo as cossie pistons are so cheap.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
The mockups I made earlier show that standard YB pistons and rods puts the edge of the pistons practically flush with my block face (could be a fraction below). The rather large (around 20 cc) dish is what brings the compression ratio down.
Longer rods would as Onyd says push the YB pistons far above the block surface so I'd say that's a no-go on standard YB pistons.
When I looked around I found few if any off the shelf pistons to give a "normal" turbo compression ratio, that's why I ordered the DP pistons - and if I hadn't mixed up some numbers they would have given me the CR I want. The price for those custom pistons was competitive against off the shelf YB pistons anyway.
I did find some Accralite 92 mm pistons with a flat top and 38 mm compression height, with perhaps a light skim of the head and a thin head gasket they could give around 8.2:1 but I doubt that would be cheaper than speccing a DP piston like mine at 39 mm compression height instead.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Correct, DP pistons and conrods are so easy to order and so competitive in price it's a waste of time trying to get around it by using Cos pistons.
BTW, Gustaf, did you received my email replay? I've recieved one from you but probably added to many pics.
Dirk
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Agreed :-)
Yes, email arrived and reply is being typed out between the other chores.
BTW, to get some more progress in the thread - I have started blending in the ports with the newly cut valve seats and I am almost done - I will not go overboard with the porting, trying to keep some material around the valve seats to aid with cooling the seats.
I took out the old cam bearings the other night and will get some bearing drifts to put the new ones in.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Guess I'll have to stop being super tight then :lol:
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Well, sometimes cheaper to do it right from the first time. Cosworth pistons are cheap you say? What price do they sell them new? Or do you use second hand?
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Can get good condition second hand set for around £100, which is what I was thinking. New they are more like £125 each.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Quote:
Originally Posted by
theduck Can get good condition second hand set for around £100, which is what I was thinking. New they are more like £125 each.
thing is usually second hand pistons whilst usable are for std size bores, 99.9% of blocks are worn and cannot use std size pistons
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Hmmm, if you add 4 slaves and slaving the block + a set of new rings?!!! Will not gain much and still have the problem of decking (weakening) the block to get the CR more or less right.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
That's something I hadn't considered actually. I'm intending to run car as is for this season anyway but will keep an eye out for a decent block and then start gathering other parts to build up a decent bottom end to swap in next winter.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I think a lot of it all comes down to what you want and expect from the engine. TBH, my "old" engine (used YB pistons and rods, low compression, high boost) worked fine but was laggy with my big turbo. It would probably be more responsive with a smaller turbo, or I could probably have ran even more boost (more than 1.8 bar) and had even more power. It was by no means a "boring" engine, especially on the street where you can adopt the driving style to the lag. The car was plenty fast too.
An engine like that can be built rather cheaply IF you are lucky, like me, to have a standard bore block that does not need a rebore. But I bought that block in 1999 or so, from a 10 year old Sierra that suffered an engine fire. Today, low mileage Pintos are not as easy to find.
I ran that engine on cast Pinto pistons for 6-7 years and then fitted the YB stuff, and had it for another 7-8 years or so, before I decided I wanted something else. During that time, the target shifted a bit.
I guess what I am trying to say is that you need to find your way, what suits you. It's great to listen to advice from others but I sometimes also think you just need to get yourself dirty and try what you like. Build a "cheap" Pinto turbo with used YB pistons and rods if that seems to float your boat - you may spend a couple of 100 £ but if you are anything like me, you will enjoy that engine for some years and learn lots. Compare that outlay with how much you spend on tax, insurance or other stuff, and spread the cost over the years. Is it worth the cost? Only you can decide.
For me, I am trying to get to a point where this engine and car is "done" for a number of years, working the way I like. Mostly because I have other projects waiting and I can't see myself selling this one ;-)
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I understand but 20 years ago parts where all a lot more expensive. A set of rods, 1100 €, a set of pistons (if available) again 1200 €. And you had to be lucky the right length of rod or pistons was in the list. Individual build, almost not possible.
We had to put parts together from wrecked engines. Even a set of big valves where not available in Belgium at a normal price when I started racing. I remember I went to a wrecking yard, took intake and exhaust valves out of Peugeot and Citroėn engines (no idea anymore what is was but was 44 an 38 mm and good quality to).
Today a set of conrods for popular engines, 200 € , set of pistons, 400 €, set pistons or rods any size you like, any shape you like at a bargain.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
agreed, years ago we would spend time lightening and polishing con rods because that was all you could do at reasonable cost. the other week i had someoen ask me if a could do it again, the answer was yes, BUT unless he had a rule book said he had to keep the OE factory conrods, it was cheaper/better/stronger to buy new steel ones
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Someone asked for photos so I will try to make a look-back on that. The pistons was the first thing to be ordered and they arrived nicely packaged:
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.JPG
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.JPG
Then my spare 205 block was cleaned up and sent for a fresh rebore to 91,5 mm.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.JPG
To get further I wanted my old rods from the other engine so it had to come out.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.JPG
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.JPG
That's when I found out about the "challenged" bearings handled earlier. Anyway, I could trial fit the pistons in the engine.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
This was when the thought process on CR started, but before making decisions I needed the head sorted. So it went off to have the big valves and K-liners fitted.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
These pictures are before blending the valve seat/throats etc. The head is ported earlier by me, I think I ran it in the first turbo engine I built back in 1999 or so. Today I gapped the rings, I got to borrow a very nice toolkit for doing that:
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
I have also gotten a new bearing puller/pusher set to replace the cam bearings, rods, oil gallery plugs and head gasket is on order. I think I have most of the stuff lined up to start putting the engine back together when those parts arrive.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Well, I ordered the Maxxpeedingrods longer conrods and they promptly arrived, rather quickly. Looks good to me.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
I trial fitted one, plastigaged the bearing clearance (checked out OK) and checked that the piston would be 1 mm further up in the bore. Everything seems nice and dandy there.
Next up was actually fitting the crankshaft, "permanently". Plastigaged clearances there too, and they are also in spec.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
Next up was fitting the rods to the pistons and the circlips always fight me a bit. But...
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
First went in fine, the second one not so much so.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
Not that easy to see but it won't seat entirely, the clip gap is almost half of the first one and it does not sit all the way in the groove.
The wrist pins are specced at 53.30 mm and I measure them at 53.35 mm. The manufacturer say they are in spec and it "should" work but I'm very doubtful. The wrist pins have a chamfer but it is around 22,23 mm where it ends and the clips have an inner diameter of 21,77 mm when seated.
DP say I might try to shorten the pins but I'm thinking about deepening the chamfer a bit instead, seems easier to me.
While waiting for more info from them, at least I have managed to fit the new cam bearings.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Had issues myself once, just make the pin little conic at the end so the clip fit's totally into the groove. You can easy do this in the lath with a WIDIA cutter. 45° will do the job, you will not have to remove so much. When the pin with 45° chamfer hit a clip it will pull it further into the groove instead of pushing out would it ever be the case.
Wish I still had time to build an engine for myself. Always fun because you can go that extra step further as what you can do for a customer.
Nice job Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Thanks, sounds good, and DP also agreed that working with the chamfer is the best bet. So I will get to work on that shortly.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Pistons, pins and clips are all from DP and doesn't fit together ? hmm, doesn't sound too good.
Do you see any problems on conrods so far? They are very cheap indeed, I was thinking about them for one NA build, but not too sure yet
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Bare in mind the chamfer in the gudgeon pin is designed in conjunction with the round wire lock, so if you make any alterations to this, it could affect the wire locks ability to remain where it should.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Original the pin is straight, so there are no negative effects when you do make a 45° cut at the end of the pin's.
Yes pin's should have fitted but as I keep telling people, in tuning, nothing fit's and only the best mechanical's will be able to put a good engine together. Not the one with the fastest internet connection !!!!
Not a big deal to put a 45° cut on a pin. If this is all extra work have to be done to build a 400 Bhp Pinto, not bad.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Both pins and pistons are from DP and they also offered me to send it all back to them for correction. But that would loose me a couple of weeks so I decided to change things myself. The pins already have a chamfer on them, I only extended that slightly. Seems to be fine now.
Although I did expect it all to work out of the box, as Dirk says, it's only a minor thing.
The rods look great to me, very well packed, the caps have a perfect fit as far as I can tell. So far I have no reason not to trust them.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I double checked the pin fitment with DP and we are both happy.
Satisfied with that part done, I put the pistons and rods into the block today. Almost a pity to hide the nice parts inside an engine :-)
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Yes, Gustaf, best parts are inside !!!
About the pins, please note DP only makes one of sets, not big series as other company's. A small 45° cut to correct seems like a very small error.
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Work has progressed a bit since I updated. I got the bottom end together and double checked for valve-to-piston clearance. Establishing TDC...
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
Marking the pulley;
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
Setting up the cam timing...
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
...and playing with clay.
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
All good there. So I painted the block and head, and put it all together, for the final time (?).
http://whynotracing.nu/gallery_3/var...8Medium%29.jpg
On Monday the engine was mounted in the car and yesterday I put the gearbox and propshaft in. There will be a week or so of pause now, have to go work at a car show and take some time off.
But if all goes well, we could se a start-up early in May.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Well, of course it turned out that "early May" was a bit optimistic. Things happened as they always do and then there was some feature glide on sorting the coolant hoses (something about "doing it right").
Then there are always the small niggles of things having to be mounted in a proper order, a throttle cable that you're not satisfied with and so on.
But finally, Saturday came and it was time to turn the key - of course after priming the oil system with an old dizzy and a drill. Not really a successful startup though, as my new trigger wheel gave erratic signals. I kind of suspected that with a "lip" in steel quite close to the trigger wheel. That will have to be trimmed, but in the meanwhile I reverted back to my old alloy front pulley that worked fine last year.
It still did and now we had a normal start. 20 minutes at 2500-3000 rpm to break in the cam, retorque the head, check valve clearances and it is officially a runner!
Initial feelings are that is seems to run rich - migh be that it is more effective with the higher compression ratio? I have only driven it around the block yet but it runs rather smooth and seems willing to boost as well.
I need some more time to retune and then drive it a bit more before trying some power. Not really sure how long of a break-in period it really needs, opinions?
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I've been driving a bit more. It is indeed rich, I have done some autotuning on cruise loads but need help from a friend to start looking at boost.
Another issue is that the engine coolant temp will fall when driving, it almost seems like the thermostat is not closing. As I cruise around 100 km/h on the freeway the temp goes down to around 73-77 degrees C. I have an 82 degree thermostat (QTH371) fitted.
I'm starting to think that the water cooling for the turbo may too big of a bypass so I might temporarily block that. I have used the takeoff on the thermostat elbow (Pinto EFI) to feed water to the turbo, and it is returned in the top tank of the radiator. In my mind that mimics the YB coolant route but I may be wrong.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
I'm still having issues with unstable water temperature, despite swapping to the old thermostat. Will make a new thread in tech section to look for input.
Regards
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Gustaf, I do assume that those maxspeedingrods are quite good until now? did you use the bolts which are supplied together with the rods?
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Yes, I used the included bolts (marked ARP something).
So far they have not been stressed very much so it's hard to say how they work - they connect the crank to the pistons and seems to do that well :-)
Since I don't plan enormous power levels (under 400 bhp) I feel pretty confident.
Gustaf
Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri
Gustaf, when do you think you'll get the capri on the dyno? Very interested in the results! I've aquired all components for my turbo build now, just machining and assembly! Capri is in my garage with old engine removed, ready for engine bay clean up and paint job. Looking forward to your updates. Ben