I know, that looked a bit gash too.
Here she is with water/anti-freeze mix loaded, and the airhorns back on again.
I'll run the engine up to temp tonight and bleed the system.
I know, that looked a bit gash too.
Here she is with water/anti-freeze mix loaded, and the airhorns back on again.
I'll run the engine up to temp tonight and bleed the system.
Ran the engine, but I'm still stumped by this odd cooling problem.
Header tank is now plumbed in to the thermostat housing, and when the engine is running, I get a constant stream of water being returned back to the header tank, from the 8mm pipe I've run from the outlet on the gearbox end of the head. (item 8 on the diagram below)
The bypass pipe is still connected. This allows water to circulate in the head prior to the thermostat opening.
But from cold, the engine warms up quickly, then the temperature continues to creep above 95 degrees, at which point the ECU turns the fans on. But the radiator is stone cold. The outlet pipe on the end of the head is hot, and the header tank contains very hot water. But the engine doesnt seem to want to draw cold water in from the radiator.
When I revved the engine, the water temp dropped to 80 degrees, and started to creep back up to 95 again. I couldn't repeat this, and I suspect it was an air-block which was cured by revving the engine.
Any ideas? I've bled it, the header tank is full, when I rev the engine the temperature seems to drop and stays at a sensible temperature. But when it idles, the temperature seems to creep higher and higher.
It should isotherm around 90 degrees shouldn't it?
Do I need to block off the large diameter bypass hose off, on the front of the block? Do I just leave the system to pressurise itself, and it then sorts itself out?
Is there an eejets guide to cooling systems somewhere as I'm confused.
I suppose I should let it cool down, and try again a few times from cold, to see if the problem persists.
This is the Ford diagram for the Fiesta ST cooling.
Last edited by team_zi; 28-09-2010 at 11:42.
I can't help you with your immediate problem there Graham, but perhaps a good excuse to go for an electric water pump system? I'm not sure if that changes the plumbing etc though? Give Steve broughton a call, I'm sure he'll probably be able to help you out.
I think thats the next step, but for now I'll focus on trying to repeat the problem from cold.
It could have been a one off. Doesn't appear to circulate water from the radiator unless its revving, so at tick over it starts to over heat. This is what it was doing at the rolling road, over heating at tickover, as Troy had to keep revving the engine to get the temps to drop. We put that down to the header tank setup, which I've now changed.
Its back on the trailer ready for the photoshoot trip to Shelsley on Thursday, so I'll have another try then.
At least it doesn't leak 8-)
not knowing on what is your problem, but I do like the EWP80's.
Used them on 3 engines and the only problem I have seen on them is when another Caterham owner put one on his Duratec and did not remove the belt driven pump, ended up with cavitation and a shagged head.
My 270bhp engine has run for 5 years with the EWP80 without fault in temperatures up to 50+ ambient and 60+ track temp without problem. When first installed it dropped the temperatures at tick over by about 10 degrees. It also gives you a few horses by freeing up the belts
www.gulfpetrolheads.com
Do you have the air bleed from the highest point of the radiator to the header tank ? As shown in the pic. The tank should also be higher than the rad to let the air out. If the hose makes a dive and rises to the tank the air will not get out. The air will anly rise up.
I dont have any air bleed as such from the radiators.
I do have an 8mm rubber pipe that runs from the alloy coil pack housing on the end of the head, back to the header tank. (connecting 1 to 8 in the diagram).
With the engine running, and the lid off the header tank, there is a constant stream of water pumped out of the small rubber pipe, in to the top of the tank. I presume that this is OK? This must be the water being pumped around the cylinder head whilst the thermostat is in the closed position.
The header tank is well above the height of the top of the radiator.
I believe you should have one. And the diagram backs this up. I am no expert on blumbing engines but I beliive it is essential to let the air out from the radiator.
And not a big thing to do. You could use this, self sealant take off.
Wrong type in the pic tho but you get the idea.
I have bled the radiators, by releasing the jubilee clips, which lets loads of water out (under pressure).
This is essentially, how it is now plumbed in.
Am I right in thinking that the green pipe in my diagram, is the return pipe that allows the coolant to circulate in the head? It is fitted on my engine, and is a 16mm rubber hose.
The radiator is split horizontally, so the water must travel around the radiator, with both the inlet and outlet on the same end.
And should I be seeing the volume of water travelling along the 8mm hose (top of the diagram) that I am? Once pressurised, would you expect this to stem to flow?
Last edited by team_zi; 28-09-2010 at 18:12.
Yes the green hose lets the coolant trough the head even when the thermostat is closed and you need to see the flow of coolant to the header tank from the cylinder head.
But if your diagram is correct you need another air inlet hose to the tank. Drawn in red to the diagram.
Also I was wondering does your radiator get hot under revs and cool down while idling?
There may well be air in the system. And it will not come out by loosing the clips. The air may well only push the coolant out.
Or maybe, but VERY far fetched, the water pump can't draw water from the bottom hose with low revs.So maybe the bottom water hose needs to bee low. Alternative routing in grey. But this is highly unlikely the water should cisculate when theres no air in the system.
Here's how I did mine.
One 8mm hose to the top hose and one to the back of the head.
I have no heater bypass hose to allow coolant to the head while thermostat is closed so I drilled holes to the stath. I have water coming from the back of the head to the header tank.
If I'm reading your diagram correctly, then you've got the outlet from the thermostat feeding into the bottom of the radiator. If so then this could be the source of your problems, as the thermosyphon effect will be opposing the water pump.
Other things to check (probably daft ones but I'm just think-typing )
Is the water pump spinning the right way?
Is the thermostat opening?
Also, try drilling a 3mm hole in the rim of the thermostat - this will help dissipate any air bubbles trapped behind the 'stat and possibly causing it to malfunction.
http://escort.accelerator.org
1968 MK1 Escort 1300GT
1969 'Big Wing' MK1 Escort
1972 MK3 Cortina 1600XL
1984 Sierra XR4i
And other junk I don't like to talk about!
The cooling system still isn't running right at low revs. I'm going to drain it and remove the radiator again, and check the thermostat. I reckon there could be a bit of rag left in the block from when I had it all stripped down. It'll be something stupid for sure.
The car drove OK, though I did have to keep my eye on the temperature. I did about a dozen climbs up the hill, some at 20mph following the photographers car whilst Gerard shot pictures sitting in the boot, with a chap called John (aka RescueDude from Uphillracers.com) doing the driving. And then I did some high speed runs with the photographer stood at Bottom S, which gave me the opportunity to really see what she goes like. Fook me, its a completely different animal to when she had the Zetec. She just bursts in to life when I nail the throttle, and the car accelerates like mad. The Titans give it a fantastic throttle response. And the noise from the induction roar is awesome.
The shorter axle arrived on Weds, so I'll fit that over the next couple of weeks, and get her back to t Northampton Motorsport for a 2nd go at getting the wheels aligned. The existing axle is too long and stops the suspension from being adjusted.
The two steady bars I made for the engine, will need to be modified, as they use rod ends to locate them, and this is far too harsh, as when I lifted off and accelerated there was an awful lot of creaking from the bulkhead, so I'll have a rethink. I reckon stiff rubber bushes on one end of each tie bar would make it a lot nicer to drive. This is the first time I've had to really drive the car with some enthusiasm, and its definitely going to need some respect. Saying its Quick is an understatement.
The photographs that Gerard Hughes took, looked incredible. He uses a Canon EOS, with two external flash lamps for lighting, and the pics looked very dramatic on the camera screen. The deadline for the next issue was yesterday, so it looks like mine'll be on the one the following month.
I reckon she deserves to be a cover car, and the pictures that I saw were certainly worthy of a cover picture.
Big thanks to Midland Automobile Club for the use of the Shelsley Walsh hillclimb venue. If you've never been, you can pop in at any time during the day, and after gaining permission, and have a walk up the hill. The steepness has to be seen to be believed, and its by far and away, the best hillclimb venue in the UK. The new watermill and restaurants are looking fantastic.
Gerard setting up for some shots in the paddock.
Last edited by team_zi; 01-10-2010 at 10:49.
Good news on the feature, I'm sure it was Gerard who shot my Capri for CF 3 years ago.
I'm just wondering (before I strip the radiator down) if the thermostat housing that Adamb sent me, requires a different thermostat to the original.
It is the same part as this one on www.part-box.co.uk, which comes with an 82degC thermostat, but I re-used the factory thermostat when I fitted the replacement housing.
http://www.part-box.com/cosworth-the...r-p-12116.html
They sell it as a thermostat AND housing, so I wonder if I should have changed the thermostat too.
And why would there be an 82C thermostat? I thought they were normally 88C.
Removed the radiator. The top of which had a lot of air trapped inside.
The thermostat housing in the block is clean with no foreign objects inside.
The thermostat opens in near boling water, though it does not have any markings on it so I don know what temp it is supposed to operate at.
None of the hoses are blocked.
I still need to flush the radtec radiator through, and check for blockages, but i now reckon its caused by the buildup of air in the top of the rad so I'll add a second bleed hose that will run from the header tank to the top hose, or something thereabouts.
Interestingly, adamb has the same issue with his 2.0 Duratec, though he has now swapped for the 82c thermostat. He was running an underdrive pulley on his pump, and reverted to a std pulley due to the pumps inability to circulate water at tickover (exacerbated by the slower running speed with the underdrive pulley). He also went for a larger capacity radiator incase it wasn't already up to the job.
If I run an electric pump, where does it plumb in to the system, as the thermostat surely blocks any flow until it has opened, and the mechanical pump is in the perfect place to pump water round already.
I believe you found your problem.
The green hose in your diagram allows coolant to circulate past the thermostat. IF you need more water to circulate when the thermostat is closed then drill a 6mm hole (or two) in to the thermostat flange.
Electric water pump plumbs between the thermostat housing and lower water hose.
have you not got anyone that could TIG a small outlet onto the top corner of your rad? driver side, fed straight back into the header tank.
My Project... Fiesta D-TEC
Pump runs best at bottom of radiator, into thermostat housing, with thermostat and waterpump impeller removed.
I made a simple outlet to replace the plastic thermostat housing (which was fine on the Caterham)
I found it best to remove the whole waterpump and make a blanking plate out of 7mm alloy with a bit of engine sealant to seal.
You can either run an electronic controller for the pump, that you buy from Davis Craig or run it on a switch, full time or a signal from your ECU.
I run mine full time as cold engines are really not an issue in Dubai.
I can get EWP80's pretty cheap here in Dubai, about 110 quid if memory serves me right, but would need to check. Am up in Heathrow in a week if you want one.
Last edited by dobuy; 06-10-2010 at 11:05.
www.gulfpetrolheads.com
Yeah, I believe Matt's runs from the ECU Graham, the best part about that is that the water will circulate when the engine is off too. I think it eliminates the thermostat, you just use a temperature sensor instead. I think Matt has his plumbed into the water rail, but the config is slightly different on the RWD setup in the Escort.
Give Steve a call at SBD, he'll sort you out I'm sure.
See the pic below, at the back of the water rail on the left hand side you can see two sensors, the rearmost with the feed for the ECU, the one in front for the temp gauge.
Last edited by mervhill; 06-10-2010 at 21:28.
your emerald ecu can control water pump, you wont need any extra sensors as it will do it using coolant temp, its just a couple of extra wires and a relay,
but i wouldnt bother for 10 years now i've used EWP that run continuously after the cwp controller packed up
looks sweet!, well done with that!
be sure to get some fresh air into em tb's no doubt!
S.A.S Motorsport
Well I've ordered an evalution-designs water swirl pot to run in the top hose, that will then allow the air/steam to be recirculated back to the header tank via the 8mm hose. As for the EWP, I'd much rather get it running with the standard pump and a thermostat, than run without a stat. If this cures the problem, then I will investigate electric pumps for a later date. I had sod all room for at the front of the engine as it is x-(
But the beauty of the EWP is that it can be mounted wherever you need it within reason.
Like I said, sod all room, and I'd rather get to the bottom of the underlying problem first. Not ruling one out just yet, I even ran a wire in the loom for an electric water pump, just in case 8-)
I'm at Bruntingthorpe on Friday with the Fiesta, for a cover shoot for Fast Ford magazine. So I'll put the radiator back together, and hopefully the swirl pot will have arrived by then. To be on the safe side, I'll leave the thermostat out, and I'll see how it runs.
As you no doubt know Graham , the coolant system works better with a bit of "back pressure" in the water , so how about taking the centre out of a stat and just fitting the outer piece?
sounds like good adviseso how about taking the centre out of a stat and just fitting the outer piece?
Looking at the thermostat whilst sat cross legged on the garage floor with bits of car all around me (like you do) theres no where on the stat to drill any holes in to. The stat sits very deep in the thermostat housing, and is sealed off with an O-ring. The actual area to drill in to would be impossible to get a 6mm drill in to. By all means, post me a pic of a modified Duratec stat, and I'll try to emulate the holes.
Also, on the end of the stat, there is a metal disk, that is pressed in to the inside of the cylinder head. As the stat opens, this disk moves with the stat, and opens a new channel inside the head. I'd rather leave it as is.
arh yes it has a by pass stat, when the stat opens it opens one port and shuts another off, best left aloneAlso, on the end of the stat, there is a metal disk, that is pressed in to the inside of the cylinder head. As the stat opens, this disk moves with the stat, and opens a new channel inside the head. I'd rather leave it as is.
I discovered that one of the two rear engine steady brackets broke at Shelsley Walsh. But then I'd literally only tack welded the steering rack mounted bracket together, which is why it failed. I had only planned to get the car mapped, not drive it with it fitted, but I forgot I'd just bodged it. :P
The new one is far better, though it is still just a temp measure. The torque limiter needs to be a lot lower down, and ideally, mounted on the rear of the gearbox. I intend to do this properly, but it'll do for Friday.
There is a small section of tube inside the box section, to prevent it from crushing when the bracket is bolted to the steering rack mount.
No difference with the top swirl pot plumbed in.
Same as before, overheats on tickover, raise the revs and the temp drops, drive the car and the temps stabilise.
?????
Ran her up to about 110mph on the return straight, all seems to run OK. Bonnet bulged at the rear, but no harm done.
Fitted filters for the day, as following the photographers car, threw up tonnes of grit and stones off the Bruntingthorpe surface, and the engine would have been fooked if I hadn't.
Had a drag race against the 4x4 Fiesta Cosworth, Photographers 530D, my friends M3 (15yr old car with 320bhp) and my Subaru Legacy Diesel, and I came last but on my 2nd and 3rd laps wrung 120mph out the Legacy at the end of the 2mile straight, and it was struggling to reach that. Manufacturers claim of 126mph is wildly exagerrated.
Didn't use the fiesta in the thrash as she's still not fully mapped, and running with one driveshaft too long.
Last edited by team_zi; 16-10-2010 at 21:50.
The white bag inside the car is a cover over the photographers flash unit.
This is how the engine is today with the swirl pot plumbed in (top of picture)
My car will be on the cover of Fast Ford in next months magazine.
Last edited by team_zi; 16-10-2010 at 22:02.
Slightly off topic and out of date. found this whilst having a sort out of my files.
Thats on my desktop background now.
excellent. glad you liked it....it was the only car i bothered to seek out at ford fair......and have a good perv over if you want the hi res image ill happily mail it to you.
Yes please. Ok to use it on my website?
Youtube video from the photoshoot at Brunters. You can see the water temp drop as I increase the revs from tickover (950rpm).
Another link just incase the embedded video doesn't work: http://bit.ly/9sWcIV
V.Busy at work at the moment, so not able to get out in the garage to try to sort it out. No hurry, first event isn't until next March. Only four months contract left to run though, so I may / may not be able to afford to compete next year anyway, but keeping that out of mind for the time being.
Last edited by team_zi; 01-11-2010 at 13:25.
Thanks Ben. Just downloading it now. 8-)
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