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Thread: Oil Cooler Mounting

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    Oil Cooler Mounting

    I am going to refit the air/oil cooler to my dry-sumped Mk1 Pinto car due to excessive oil temps on long stages. I was considering using a Mocal oil/water cooler but have gone off the idea. In order to have better control over the correct oil temp I am now considering an air/oil cooler with an electric fan. Further, due to space requirements at the front of the car and the inability to control temps when the cooler if open to full airflow (I don't want to use an oil stat) I am thinking about alternate locations for the cooler. The obvious is in the boot next to the oil tank. This would minimise additional oil lines/weight.

    Has anybody mounted an oil cooler on a Mk1 Escort other than in front of the grill?? Photos? Anybody used a switched fan on the cooler?
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Has nobody gone outside the square?????? This is a dry sumped car btw hence thinking of mounting in the boot...
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    I cant help you out with any photos and im sure what you are planning will work just fine, I have seen differential oil coolers mounted in the boot before. The electric fan and temp switch will give you great control as long as you engineer a fresh air supply.

    Just out of curiosity, why don’t your want to run an oil stat?

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    I lost an engine in the first event after building teh car and I always suspected the oil stat in some way (maybe I didn't correctly fill the cooler with oil so when the stat opened I sucked air into the engine?). Also seems silly to have a dry sump system with AN10/12 lines that run into the tiny oilways of the oil stat = restriction. I would assume the tarmac rally boys in Ireland would all use coolers and oil stats??
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Many people just say put the cooler infront of the car and control cooling by blanking off the cooler with tape/cardboard. This works for a track car but a tarmac rally car obviously has to quietly transport between stages = substantially different cooling needs.
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by MK1_Oz View Post
    I lost an engine in the first event after building teh car and I always suspected the oil stat in some way (maybe I didn't correctly fill the cooler with oil so when the stat opened I sucked air into the engine?). Also seems silly to have a dry sump system with AN10/12 lines that run into the tiny oilways of the oil stat = restriction. I would assume the tarmac rally boys in Ireland would all use coolers and oil stats??
    most dry sump installations put the cooler in the return line, thus no stat and no restriction

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    most dry sump installations put the cooler in the return line, thus no stat and no restriction
    Not sure why having it in the return line means that a stat isn't required??? Hot oil is hot oil?

    Only possible problem with the return line is the oil is mixed with air so a larger cooler would be needed but is the route I would like to take.
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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Well after a heap of research that did not really find anything I bought a Derale HyperCool Extreme 40 row remote cooler with fan.



    This should have been more than up to the task with its 800CFM fan. I mounted it in the AN12 oil return line to the tank (boot) after the filter to ensure it stayed clean. The cooler was mounted under the boot floor using 1-2" stand-offs to ensure enough airflow for the fan. The boot floor is already angled slightly (front lower than back) but the stand-offs make the oil cooler even more angled to help airflow. The radiator surface is around 1" below the mounting surface so the radiator-boot air gap is 1" one end and about 2-3" the other. I used a 96 degree thermal switch in the line before the cooler connected to the cooler fan via a relay. This was to ensure it didn't overcool on transport stages but kept temps under control on the stages. Nice and neat.






    Theory said it should have worked great. Reality is that I am not really seeing it bring the peak temperatures down.

    Previously without a cooler I was seeing 115+ degrees on fast stages in moderate ambient temps. The last event I did (Targa High Country in Victoria, Australia) I again saw 115 degrees on the gauge in around 28 degree ambient. The oil temp dropped to maybe 80-90 on transport stages even though these were mostly 100km/h zones with the engine running 4000rpm (rather than up to 8000rpm in the stages).

    I thought maybe the fan was not working so I hard wired the fan to be on all the time. Made no difference to peak temps => fan was working fine.

    My thoughts, although I am desperate to hear what the rest of you think;
    • the Derale fan is either too small or not working at full ability - seems doubtful (radiator area is roughly 10"x11" so not physically huge)
    • the air in the oil has reduced the ability of the cooler to cool the oil - many ppl use coolers in the return line though
    • the cooler is mounted too close to the boot restricting the fan's ability to move air - the gap is greater than Derale recommend so this is doubtful
    • there is a high pressure region below the oil cooler that is working against the fan and therefore limiting the air moved by the fan
    • there is a low pressure area above the cooler that against works against the fan


    I have no idea how I could test for the low/high pressure theories.

    I could install some ugly ducting that would ensure a better supply of air into the cooler but this would cause over-cooling of the oil at low speeds which is a big reason why I didn't want to use a standard cooler in-front of the radiator (plus there is no room).

    I will investigate using some alternative oil. Previously I have use Valvoline Duratech Semi-Synthetic. This time I use a high end Castrol product. Both showed high temps. It has been suggested that I look to use an ester based synthetic such as Redline or Motul. I am not sure if these will run cooler or just handle the higher temps better. I always thought full synthetic was not good for Pintos (I don't want to turn this thread into an oil thread as I want to fix the issue before I choose an oil i.e. fix the cause not the symptom!!).

    I have looked into a new PWR radiator with an inbuilt oil cooler (they for some reason did not think it would cool the oil well enough!!) and a Laminova oil/water cooler. Both these options are big money with no guarantee of good results so I probably want to try to work with what I have.

    Thoughts? Advice?
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    My first impression is that the cooler is mounted too close to the floor.
    For a radiator to work properly it needs smooth airflow.

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    My first impression is that the cooler is mounted too close to the floor.
    For a radiator to work properly it needs smooth airflow.
    ^^^ Agreed and also oil picks up heat slowly and tends to release it even slower, this coupled with suspected aerated oil and you'r on a hiding to nothing!
    If you want the oil to stay cool - sub 70 deg C - you are going to need a BIG cooler and airflow. Ducted air to the cooler and use fan to extract away - pusher fans never seem to perform as good as pullers.

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Very hot oil is not good but I think cool oil - sub 70 deg C - is not good either.

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    ive got one ...im fitting at the front of the car...the fan works via a seperat oil temp relay that you can set the temp on/to come on when you require//
    With radiators its as important for the air to have an escape route ,otherwise you wont get any air through...
    cheers mark

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Very hot oil is not good but I think cool oil - sub 70 deg C - is not good either.
    It was a figure plucked from the depths but i'd hazard a speculation that a tank of 70 deg oil would go further than a tank all at 125!

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    I want to oil to sit around 100 degrees probably.

    The fan is a puller hence the smaller gap between the cooler and the boot floor. I will be trying to increase that spacing as much as possible. I bought an airflow meter off ebay so I will be able to have some measure of airflow improvements. Having a great big Toyota Hilux diff in front of it does not help airflow!

    The oil is not suspected of being aerated, it definitely is due to the dry sump setup. This will definitely not be helping the situation.

    I have a suspicion that the dry sump pump (Weaver Bros 3 stage) is by-passing alot which I further suspect will be causing additional oil temp increases. I do not want to slow the pump down any more as the idle oil pressure is already around 20psi. But maybe it could go lower??
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    What filter are you using..or filters...cheers mark

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    The filter is a Ryco Z30. Quite a large spin on type filter.
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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by MK1_Oz View Post
    The filter is a Ryco Z30. Quite a large spin on type filter.
    Thanks...im trying to sort a filter out...but its a mine field....im looking for good filtration but without restricting flow...not easy to find...i have seen some specalist filters for moter racing....

    Cheers mark

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Derale replied to me and suggested that there is an air pressure issue on one side of the cooler that is working against the fan. The only way I can test this is to strap my new airflow gauge under the car with a gopro pointing at it to read the figures as I drive at various speeds I could attach a couple of small pressure sensors to an Arduino and do some data logging?
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    How does the water temp maintain...i would of guessed if your oil is overheating then your coolant system should be overheating...where are yore temp readings taken from for the oil readings....i notice on my set up i can put oill gauge from my enging sandwich plate also my remote filter....

    if your filter is after your oil cooler you could put a temp gauge read out from the filter and see if the oil cooler is actually cooling...by comparing before reading from engine and after reading from remote filter take off....
    cheers mark

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by madragon199 View Post

    if your filter is after your oil cooler you could put a temp gauge read out from the filter and see if the oil cooler is actually cooling...by comparing before reading from engine and after reading from remote filter take off....
    cheers mark
    This sounds like a good idea. Being able to test air flow/pressure is one thing, seeing the results that the cooler is doing is another.

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by madragon199 View Post
    How does the water temp maintain...i would of guessed if your oil is overheating then your coolant system should be overheating...where are yore temp readings taken from for the oil readings....i notice on my set up i can put oill gauge from my enging sandwich plate also my remote filter....

    if your filter is after your oil cooler you could put a temp gauge read out from the filter and see if the oil cooler is actually cooling...by comparing before reading from engine and after reading from remote filter take off....
    cheers mark
    The coolant was set at 80 degrees (I have a Davis Craig EWP with digital controller) and did not budget from that at all. The radiator fan is not operating at stage speeds so the coolant system appears to have quite a bit of excess capacity. I have been told that 80 on the water is too low so I will reset to 90.

    The oil temp sensor is in the boot screwed into the Petersen oil filter holder. Engine->Filter (in boot)->Oil Cooler (under boot)->Oil tank (boot)

    The switch that operates the electric fan for the oil cooler is before the oil filter. I could probably install a second temp sensor and measure the cooler operation as you suggest.

    I think an Arduino that data logs several oil temps and several air pressures would enable me to see the true picture although it's a little hard to get the car up to 180kmh on public roads.
    Last edited by MK1_Oz; 01-02-2018 at 14:15. Reason: clarity
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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by MK1_Oz View Post
    The coolant was set at 80 degrees (I have a Davis Craig EWP with digital controller) and did not budget from that at all. The radiator fan is not operating at stage speeds so the coolant system appears to have quite a bit of excess capacity. I have been told that 80 on the water is too low so I will reset to 90.
    Sounds too high to me - I thought the general wisdom was mid 70's water temps for peak power / reliability? Modern engines are designed for higher water flow temps 90 - 100 deg as they have restricted cooling available. Hotter water temps aren't going to help with oil cooling!

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Sounds too high to me...
    Yes he confused me. What temps does everybody suggest?
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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    I think engine temp of 90 is ok...fan set to come on at say 80....im trying to work out why your oil temp is high but your engine is running cool...i would imagine that the 2 should match.. eg high engine temp = high oil and water temp...cheers mark ..do you have engine temps.(eg sensors taken from engine)..be interesting to see what temps the actual engine is operating at...cheers mark

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    Re: Oil Cooler Mounting

    Quote Originally Posted by madragon199 View Post
    ..do you have engine temps.(eg sensors taken from engine)..be interesting to see what temps the actual engine is operating at...cheers mark
    Waffle to follow.........

    My car uses two independent coolant temp sensors. The first is in the hose that comes from the head into the radiator. This sensor is connected to the Davies Craig control unit and is what controls the EWP and radiator fan. The second sensor is in the usual place screwed into the head. This sensor is connected to a VDO gauge in the dash. Both the controller and the gauge are showing pretty much the same temperature so I am happy the sensors or fine.

    I suspect the reason why I have low coolant temps with high oil temps is purely a function of the coolant radiator. It is getting bulk airflow at competition speeds and therefore the coolant is able to be well cooled. The 40 row (that is large for an oil cooler!) oil cooler just cannot be getting decent airflow across it at competition speeds thus allowing the oil temp to rise. At transport speeds the engine is just not putting the same level of heat into the oil hence the oil temp not being as high.

    I have been emailing Derale tech support with various measurements and the short story is they just are not being helpful. They do not seem to have the technical insight to help me but rather are suggesting that I just make a warranty claim!! Not overly happy with them.

    As I have concluded that the issue I am having is airflow related (high/low pressure stalling the fan, fan not running correctly, no airflow into the cooler etc) I decided to thoroughly test the fan to ensure it is not the cause. The Derale specifications for this product are that it is a 150W fan that draws 8.7 amps at 13.1 volts (0 static pressure). There is my first issues: 13.1 x 8.7 = 114 watts so their specs do not match each other.

    The next bit I need some assistance from the knowledgable folk - When I used my anemometer with the fan connected direct to the battery with the engine running I get measured airflow at around 7.1m/s with the anemometer held 60mm from the fan. I measured that the fan is drawing an average of 3.7 amps (I used my Picoscope not a multimeter). I noted that I need to work on my power supply to prevent a 0.9v drop. However, this indicates the fan is not running anywhere near as hard as it should be.

    My anemometer is 30mm in diameter so measuring at 7.1m/s it equates to 18.1m3/hr or 10.6CFM (I may be very wrong there with my conversions!!!!!). The area of the fan blades (ie exclude motor area) is 31 times greater than my anemometer therefore the overall cooler fan is measured as moving 330CFM (31 x 10.6). This agrees with the amperage measurement above in that the fan is just not running at full volume. 330CFM/800CFM = 41% of rated flow. 3.7amps/8.7amps = 43% of rated current. Not sure if amps and airflow are directly linear so whether this comparison is meaningful? It should be remembered that Derale rate the fan at 0 static pressure (ie not attached to anything) so having the cooler in the path of the flow will reduce the 800CFM specified flow by some amount (no idea how much).

    I then used the Picoscope to look at the running waveform hoping to see that one of the armatures was naff. This is what I got;



    Anybody an electrical engineer??? Is this a good waveform?? I was not expecting the small ledges on the downslope - I cannot explain those. I believe the fan is totally fine?

    Where to from here? My next plan is to use some old MAF sensors and an Arduino board mounted under the car to measure actual airflow through and around the fan when the car is at speed (might make a flow meter from an Arduino and a 3-wire PC case cooling fan ). I will also add some pressure sensors. This will give me an idea of whether the fan is stalling or whether the airflow available into the fan is just not sufficient. This will take some time as I first need to get the car registered under the local rally registration scheme.

    What I don't want to do is guess any more. I have moved this cooler twice so far with no success so it is time to get facts!
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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