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Thread: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

  1. #41
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Quote Originally Posted by mk1 gaz
    a wise man once said " to win a race , you have to finish a race " so turn the boost down first and uprate everything before turning it back up again .
    very true, although the engine only ever runs quite low boost, it only needs a 16psi to produce its max power.

    it doesn't help that i'm doing things the hardway by developing a turbo motor that basically no one turbos, if i ran a cossy all the info as to what needs doing is already out there, i've got to find out the hard way.

    still it puts a big grin on my face when others are cranking silly boost figs into ther Yb's and i just sail past

  2. #42
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr
    it doesn't help that i'm doing things the hardway by developing a turbo motor that basically no one turbos, if i ran a cossy all the info as to what needs doing is already out there, i've got to find out the hard way.

    still it puts a big grin on my face when others are cranking silly boost figs into ther Yb's and i just sail past

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    i know what you mean about the big boost used by many which is not needed . My 1.4 litre pushrod renault 5 gordini turbo is making 190 bhp on 15 psi of boost using a only tiny carb . God knows what it would produce with decent parts bolted to it . I hope you solve the breakages soon

  4. #44
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    heres some cracked manifold pics
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails bmturbman.JPG‎  

    bmturbman3.JPG‎  

    Last edited by Graham; 03-08-2007 at 01:58.

  5. #45
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Just spotted these pics Graham, must say it doesn't fill me with confidence about mounting my turbos


    Could you have something cast rather than welded tubes. This should be a bit stronger and more flexible. My manifolds are cast and look really strong, the problem is though I haven't got a TVR or sierra width engine bay, so the turbos dont go straight on

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    heavy gauge tubes are fine dave , you can use the bends from high pressure water + gas pipe suppliers to make manifolds . These ones have an angle at each end so when butted together you can fill the angle wilth weld and get a very strong joint . Then support the weght of the turbo's from secure engine brackets from underneath . Most importantly you need an expanshion joint where the manifold joins the downpipe due to the horrific heat generated from long periods of track day full throttle antic's . This also helps as the engine will twist and flex the exhaust at these points cracking it off everytime

  7. #47
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    its amazing what heat and expansion will do, the cracks in my manifold are in 5mm thick steel.

    at the moment the hope is to get to the end of the season and start again from another angle, possibly making an adapter plate to use a Yb manifold

  8. #48
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    its looking like i've killed it



    for the last few meetings power seems of of dropped off and i've not had full boost, prior to brands i had a good look around the motor and found nothing wrong, but decided to re plumb all the small bore boost control piping, i pressure tested every thing but couldn't find any leaks, until i checked the dump valve which was leaking, so i removed it, and headed for brands the next morning.

    #
    practise was really busy, it was very difficult to find some clear track, the car felt good, then i checked the boost gauge, YIKES 1.8 bar percy: i thought, and knocked the boost back, a lap later the water temp was a bit on the high side, i backe doff for a bit, it dropped back, and i gave it some, a lap or two later it missed a couple of times so i pulled off, it then errupted in a cloud of steam,

    back in the pits it was clear the head gasket was fooked big time, trouble is the rings seemed to be as well as it now needed a huge amount of cranking to restart it.

    was the gasket already going or did the extra boost do it, it certainly wouldn't of helped, sadly the extra boost would of been why the car felt good rather than awesome as extra boost beyond the normal high reduces power.

    done a cylinder leakage test this morning, bad news, the best cylinder has 80% leakage, the others 95%, a compression test backed it up, i know the gasket is dead as air from the leakage test is going straight in the cooling system, but i'm struggling to believe that it can loss so much compression through the gasket without any other problems, time to take the head off
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails dead engine 002.jpg‎  

    dead engine 001.jpg‎  


  9. #49
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Sorry to hear that Graham, lets just prey that its just the gasket and you'll be sorted ready for the next race pray:

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  10. #50
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    update,

    i lifted the head, the gasket was definatly blowing, in an effort to see just how much compression was being lost through the gasket, i dug out an old gasket, covered it in sealant, and bolted the head back on minus cams etc, and repeated the leakage test, better but still not good, i could hear the valves leaking the air through the manifolds, so i definatly know i also need to recut the valves seats and get the head refaced, think im going to have to pull the pistons out

  11. #51
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    back luck graham , the rise in boost pressure sometimes cracks the block if they've been bored out alot . On the 1900 cc rs turbo conversions the blocks crack the bore into the water jacket over 20 p.s.i. , how strong is an m3 block ? Can it cope with the extra heat and cylinder pressures if bored out and at 1.8 bar of boost pressure ? Hope you fix it soon

  12. #52
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    the blocks ok no cracks i can find, bmw did uprate the m3 block compaired to the m10 its based on and the block itself is only 0.4mm oversize

    i made up an adapter plate, and did a cylinder leakage test on the bottom end with the head off, 70% of the compression loss was through the valves and gasket itself, the valves are easy fixed by re cutting the seats, the rings arent sealing as well as i'd like, which means pistons out to check/re-ring, the block could also do with decking to make the o rings sit a bit prouder and bite harder into the head gasket, which means a total engine strip, i may well just take the rest of the season off, as i want to make a few other changes, such as exhaust manifolding which isn't going to be straight forward, i want to change one of the cams, and the whole lot is going to have to go back to the rollers to be set up again,

    oh and i'm absolutly skint so the £2000 it would cost to just chuck it back together and finish the season without any improvements, seems a poor return that fig includes entry fees, fuel for race and tow cars etc, and i would still need to do an end of season strip on it.

    me thinks its better to forget the rest of this season and hopefully come out punching hard in 2007

  13. #53
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Really sorry to hear that you might miss the rest of the season Graham, its a loss for the championship. Its the right thing to do though as if you carry on it will cost a lot of money and ultimately probably kill the engine for good.

    Good luck with the rebuild, it'll come back faster and stronger than ever and just think you'll be lined up on the front row of the grid alongside me for the first race next season ... what?
    Last edited by david_white; 29-07-2006 at 18:16.

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    make it road legal while your at it graham , then you can take it out more often without killing it everytime , as you can only floor it now and then for short bursts
    Last edited by mk1 gaz; 31-07-2006 at 01:23.

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Quote Originally Posted by mk1 gaz
    make it road legal while your at it graham , then you can take it out more often without killing it everytime , as you can only floor it now and then for short bursts


    If 30 or 40 laps in a day over a minute each driving fully on it is short bursts what do you call 13 secs in a straight line

    Dont think grahams clutch would like popping down to tescos either.
    Mind you you'll be in the same boat soon Gaz with a full race motor and all the race transmittion required to deal with it, not rush hour friendly

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    i meant short bursts on the street , it's the flat out driving around the track that's killing it . I'm going to still use mine on the street for sure , i've got / had cars with race clutches and they're not too bad if you know how to treat them

  17. #57
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Quote Originally Posted by mk1 gaz
    i meant short bursts on the street , it's the flat out driving around the track that's killing it . I'm going to still use mine on the street for sure , i've got / had cars with race clutches and they're not too bad if you know how to treat them
    hmmm theres race clutches and race clutches, mine is a twin plate sintered rigid paddle, it will only do on or if, if you try to slip them they will die in a matter of seconds, it is imposible to pull away at any speed without any wheel spin or a stall

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    you can get nice user friendly twin plate clutches that will hold your cars torque easily , pricey though mate ...............

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    what to cope with over 400lbft and to fit my ultra light flywheel which only takes a 7.25inch race clutch, anyway the beemer is way too far modified to ever go back on the road.

    why would i want to anyway if i really want to go fast on the road i use this, which is a gsxr 7/11
    it started out life as a gsxr 750, but has since had a 1200 bandit engine, bigger 38mm carbs k+n's 1100r cams and a pipe fitted now chucking out around 145-150bhp, its the only think that to me feels faster than the beemer
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    Last edited by Graham; 01-08-2006 at 12:12.

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    or this
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Left Side Summer.jpg‎  


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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    or even this, sorry about the pic quality
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails rs pic.jpg‎  


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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    i'll sell you a few more faster motors if you like .............

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    thanks for the offer gaz but i've got too many motors i need to sell one or two, added to 3 motors on this tread i've also got my everyday hack and tow car, and the company van and trailer, if i try i can fill every parking space in the whole street

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    ill take the RS off your hands then

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Will you stop with the 6 series pics

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Quote Originally Posted by Retromotorsport
    Will you stop with the 6 series pics
    it could be yours if you like them that much

    you know you want one

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?



    Graham that is

    The only BMW I have ever liked and would love one. A nice 636 CSI on my drive would make me very happy
    "I love you more than gummy bears"

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Top bit of kit this Graham - shame about your engine issues!

    I have a question regarding the diff, does a standard e30 sport lsd cope with 400lb of torque OK? Do you know the limit for this diff? Is it a 30% locker?

    Just curious!

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    it copes just fine! its a very very strong diff, they origonated from the 5/6/7 series, never heard of anyone breaking one.

    the mounting bolts which attach it the the rear beam tend to work loose but then std cars do that anyway

    the relatively low lock level is probably a good thing, the power alone is enough to make plenty of oversteer if required, let alone having a diff trying to go sideways the whole time, unless you start doing stupid things with the throttle its generally the car is quite neutral to mild understeer, , the only place i ever recall traction being an issue is out of devils elbow at lydden, but even then its only an issue using an extremely tight line, which doesnt really suit the power delivery anyway.
    Last edited by Graham; 03-10-2006 at 15:43.

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    thanks to clint

    i now has a 4wd cossie manifold in my possession with will be the basis of my turbo mounting for 2007, my fabricated manifold worked really well from a power point of view but not so good in the reliability stakes, hense my decision to adapt a ready made manifold, initally i tried a 2wd cossie manifold, but without a total re engineer of the car no way was it ever going to fit,

    i realise the 4wd manifold isnt as good, but im at the stage i would rather drop 60bhp over the current one and finish the race with the same power i started it with rather than start out with 460bhp and finish with 160bhp.

    the manifold wont bolt straight to the head and even if it did there would be enough room for the turbo so i wil have to get very busy making adapter plates, as usual for me, theres no real up front plan i shall just fabricate and engineer as i go.

    a couple of pics showing my diy manifold compaired to the 4wd cossie one
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails turbo man project 003.jpg‎  

    turbo man project 004.jpg‎  

    Last edited by Graham; 03-08-2007 at 02:08.

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Its a shame your one isn't strong enough Graham, it looks so much better than the cossie one. I guess flow isn't quite so critical on turbo'd cars compared with N/A though

    What other mods are you planning for 2007, or is it all top secret?

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    first thing for 2007 is find some money otherwise ther wont be anything done to the car

    i have some plans to try and improve the manifold a bit, i shall also be building a new exhaust system turbo technics have been telling me my current 3 inch bore is system is too small but i wasnt so sure but over the weekend i got under rod birleys car and meassured the exhaust on that its 5 inch bore which is a hell of a lot bigger when you think he only has 80bhp more than me.

    i shall also be trying a new exhaust cam, well its a group N inlet actually but im going to install as an exhaust.

    finally there may be some body and suspension mods at the front, only so i can get the same wheels and tyres on the front as i run on the rear.

    you cant get 9x17's on the front of an e30, but i need a wider front tyre than the current 200/15 but you cant get that in a 15, and ex touring car 235/610/17s are the only sensable option for me

    i'm hoping if i put some offset caster bushes on the bottom arms and take some caster out on the topmounts i'll be able to fit the 17's without them being hard up against the floor/inner arch like they would be now, and then just modify the front wings to cover the extra width

  33. #73
    Pole Position Decade Plus User david_white's Avatar

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Will look and go much better with the big rims on the front, always thought the 15's were a bit small compared to the rears.

    Guess i'm gonna need a mahoosive exhaust system aswell then, hope theres room for it

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    the 15's were the b*****ks on the 2002 and even worked well on with the 8valve in the e30, but the 16v just has too much speed and they go off.

    twin 3inch will do fine, geoff kershaw recons 3inch is fine upto 300bhp

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    oh yes and emerald will be upgrading my ecu, so i will have switchable mapping and will have an EGT sensor ( exhaust gas temp) fitted and wired in to work in closed loop, that really is the dogs danglies, i was over at emeralds the other day and they were mapping a turbo elise, you can set it up so as the exhaust temp starts to exeed a safe 850 degrees the ecu can either back the boost off or richen the mixture or even both and bring the temp down, it gives you a handy safety net if something starts going wrong

  36. #76
    Pole Position Decade Plus User david_white's Avatar

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Mine will probably have to run into one system though as i have an exhaust tunnel on the passengers side Might have to make it bigger for a 5" system or two 3" systems

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  37. #77
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    on the basis that i currently have single 3 inch, although it does split into 2 when it gets to the rear axle 5 inch is probably a bit ott

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    a single 3 inch pipe has an internal cross sectional area of 7 inches
    a 4 inch pipe almost 13
    a 5 inch pipe 19 inches
    2 x 2.5 inch would have a 10

    on that basis i would of thought that a single 4 inch or pair of 3 would be plenty, you'd probably get away with 2 x 2.5
    Last edited by Graham; 08-11-2006 at 14:36.

  39. #79
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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    Single 4" should fit in the tunnel, with 2 boxes I guess

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    Re: worlds most powerfull bmw 316?

    made a bit more progress at last,

    its only at the mock up stage, but i've worked out how to get the Yb manifold to fit the beemer head,

    the studs in the head and the stud holes in the manifold dont line up, but they also are not far enough apart for a simple adapter plate to do the job, so the plan is to make 2 adapter plates, one screws to the head, and one to the manifold, and then the two adapters can bolt together.

    unfortunatly there isnt enough room for the turbo to bolt straight onto the manifold, i will need to make a "riser" like gary made for david whites turbos, although that might play into my hands and allow me to open up the manifold a bit and make it less restrictive where all the ports meet
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails turbo man project 005.jpg‎  


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