A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

[bmw02rally]

yep thats lesters name on the sump lesters somthing of a god when it comes to bmw m10 engines, i buy some stuff of lester, could never afford one of his engines they are wilcox BDA money,

that said he GAVE me that sump FOC

Last time I went to see Lester he was building an engine for Carlos Sainz brother....he also had 3 M12 engines lined up. Felt a bit of a cheap skate just asking him to sort my head ready for domed pistons that he had lying around. Still gave me the time of day though, he is an old skool legend. Swaps a lot of work with John Millington I here?

Lester told me that you should get 238bhp tops out of an NA 8v M10 so you did very well with your's mate!!

Regards
Mark

[stephen bahr]

what's the maximum bonnet bulge allowed?
to me the TB's look to be at about 50 degrees, and say the trumpets are only 6"/15cm long, from the top of the TB's the end of the trumpets would rise a minimum of 11.49cm, that's without any end plate or filter etc. say it wants 12"/30cm trumpets the end of the trumpets then rise up 22.98cm from the TB's.

[Tristan]

whats the main advantage(s) of 2 sets of injectors?

[stephen bahr]

whats the main advantage(s) of 2 sets of injectors?

it seems to do alot for the torque/power, at mid range i believe it was.

[Tristan]

cheers Junior!

[Graham]

some engine double injecting works for others it doesnt, best power usually come from having injectors external to an engine, best throttle responce from having then very close to the valve, double injecting tends to give you the best of both, it also allows finer control on the fueling, because you can use smaller injectors,

on my 2.0 8v we gained 12bhp @5,000rpm

[RWD fords rule]

running an 8 injector setup also means you can use std size injectors from a car with about half the bhp you are aiming for, much cheaper than buying a new set with a big flow rate, but you do need to make a second fuel rail, and not all injection systems will support 8 injectors.

Overal 8 injector is best in my view, potential for more power, cheaper injectors, and its a little bit different.

[david_white]

running an 8 injector setup also means you can use std size injectors from a car with about half the bhp you are aiming for, much cheaper than buying a new set with a big flow rate, but you do need to make a second fuel rail, and not all injection systems will support 8 injectors.

Overal 8 injector is best in my view, potential for more power, cheaper injectors, and its a little bit different.

I agree. I need some injectors for the YB but as you say it seems cheaper to find 8 injectors that are an oe fitment than 4 that would work alone on a race engine. I think I have a spare rail and my DTA supports 8 easily. Plus fitment in my bay would be relatively simple


Any more progress Graham??

[Graham]

a little

exhaust manifold and water rail are on, doesnt sound much but i had to modifiy one of the secondary pipes and part of the system

[Graham]

a little more, oil tank and pipes in,




connected battery hit starter button and a big fat nothing!

ponder ponder, remember to fit engine earth strap and she cranked, some more cranking later and we have pressure




55 psi on the starter not bad going, ok theres no plugs in it, but the battery was far from fully charged

[Roadsport]

Are you going to make some noise later today?

[Graham]

hopefully, it should just be a case of plugging everything in, the map wil be a milliion mile out but it should still go

[Graham]

no pics but it does run, just need to sort out top hose plumbing so i can get it properly upto temp

[Roadsport]

Congratulations! Yet another one sees the daylight!

Was the map badly off? Did it start okay or sis you need to tweek it a bit?
Are you happy with everything so far?

[caprimentle]

well done good show, when is it booked in to the rollers to get it mapped?

[Graham]

Congratulations! Yet another one sees the daylight!

Was the map badly off? Did it start okay or sis you need to tweek it a bit?
Are you happy with everything so far?

not even touched the map! i've not even plugged the laptop in to the ecu i know the maps miles off but i've started so many engines on totally wrong maps i was sure it would run, it took a bit of persuading on the throttle to first go, but now its on the button, i've not even had a screwdriver to the tb's!

although the last two things explain why it idles fast and pops back, although will rev cleanly with a blip, i generally dont ever touch the maps, as long as it starts ok and idles well enough i leave alone because daves only going to change everything anyway!

rolling road is on the 16th

[david_white]

looking forward to the 16th

[Graham]

looking forward to the 16th

me to sort of, theres too many compromises for it to make really good power, as long as its healthy i'll be happy

[exboyracer]

Well done Graham

Fingers crossed for the 16th.

[RWD fords rule]

Good on you Graham, that is a very nice engine, it will have a truck load more torque than the 8 valve did lol
The m10 was a very quick 8v 4 pot but the S14 will really get that E30 shell moving fast

Best of luck with it

[Graham]

it seemed to take ages but yesterday i sorted the top hose and remote thermostat and bleed from head out, the main reason it too so long was that i had to do it out of lots of small secondhand bits of samco most of which were too short, the inlet side of the head is higher than the exhaust where the coolant leaves the head, so it needs a bleed to remove trapped air, without a header tank (current rad doesnt need one) i was a bit stick and plumbed it back into the thermostat which i wasnt sure would work, because the thermost is only slightly higher than the head and i'd be plumbing the bleed back into the same part of the system the main water flow goes which made me think all the water might go through the rail and non through the bleed, but i tested the bleed circuit with a bit of clear hose and it worked, you could deffo tell it worked when the clear hose softened and blew off and the engine squirted water everywhere.



didnt get much else done yesterday other than run out of fuel! then check the valve clearances once i'd got it properly warmed up, i swapped a couple of shims, dunno why i adjust them right when i build it because theres always a couple that are wrong once its run, i've got two inlets that are a about 4thou tight but will have to live with that for now as i dont have any thin enough shims to fix that and the chances of getting a couple before going to the rollers is slim, still if im 100bhp down i've got a ready made excuse _ not!

[team_zi]

running an 8 injector setup also means you can use std size injectors from a car with about half the bhp you are aiming for, much cheaper than buying a new set with a big flow rate, but you do need to make a second fuel rail, and not all injection systems will support 8 injectors.
.

Running injectors in batch mode also means that each single injector supplies the equivalent fuel of an injector of 'twice the capacity'.

[Graham]

as is often the case, one step forward and two back, infact today we prob had two or more steps forward and several back!

mapping showed up a couple of things today, 1stly the engine doesnt like either the really long or large dia diameter trumpets, emerald are developing something that i cant reveal but we used that instead, the next issue is using small dia trumpets were getting massive fuel stand off which we never really got round,

sadly though before working our way through all the inlet permutations it became clear that the cooling system was seriously overpressuring like one power run = 2 litres water in the catch tank!!!

so it looks like i've got to rip it apart again, which im not looking forward to.

otherstuff, well its doesnt rev, i say that it does, it just doesnt need to rev to make power, if the final mapping doesnt lift power higher up the rev range im going to have to change the diff ratio again, hopefulyl it will peak higher or hang onto it longer but the scores on the doors so far are

257bhp @6600 and a wonking great 243lbft cant remember where peak torque was at around 3K

[Roadsport]

This one keeps keeping you busy.

Made good power despite the issues you encountered. Even more so when you think of the revs it did it in.

Do you have any theories why it leaks pressure to the cooling system? head gasket?

[Tristan]

peak torque at 3k!!!!?? Did you map it on diesel this time? lol

[Group4_Mark2]

My brother has a turbo engined John Deere tractor that is pressurising the system also after an engine rebuild. Will be having a look at it tomorrow. Be interested in what is causing the problem on both engines

[caprimentle]

maybe its air still trapped in the head rapidly expanding over pressuring the system

[Graham]

nope, we'd had a couple of hours on the rollers before it developed, i took the head off this morning, the gasket was deffo leaking at the fire ring and in couple of places too, no idea why though, the blocks been refaced, as had the head, the bolts were still tight and i'd checked they werent bottoming out, the rollers are fully booked for weeks ahead, but dave has offered me the chance to be squeezed in on this coming weekend even though they dont work weekends, so i'm having to work fast, with time against me, i've decided to refit it with a std type gasket which i already had, this will cost me about a ratio on the compression due to it being 3 times thicker, so the machine shop shaved another 0.030" off it while i waited earlier today, meaning i'l only loose about half a ratio but thats it for this head now it wont take any more being taken off it, as the skimming has now hit the valve seat inserts, but TBH the head i chose to use has had a very hard previous life, and isnt upto doing duty on the next evolution of the engine anyway

[Ratters]

i'm not into all this over technical engine building stuff but it sure makes for interesting reading

nice work graham

[Roadsport]

Do you have any idea what caused the gasket to leak? Dodgy gasket ? Too mutch compression pressure maybe? Head overheating heat?
Can you check the block face witha feeler gauge to make sure it has not deformed in some places?

[exboyracer]

Fingers crossed the gasket holds this time Graham

[Graham]

Do you have any idea what caused the gasket to leak? Dodgy gasket ? Too mutch compression pressure maybe? Head overheating heat?
Can you check the block face witha feeler gauge to make sure it has not deformed in some places?

both block and head had been refaced and are dead flat, nope its wasnt overheating on either gauge or ecu temp sensors, cant see it being compression pressure, the engine was making 240lbft torque, which is only half what the same gasket held with the engine in turbo form so although the satic compression is higher dynamic is way lower.

its nearly back together now, just got to refit induction sytem cam cover and a few hoses, whilst in there i also sorted it the tight tappets

[david_white]

Good luck with it Graham, let's hope you've cured the problem now.
Seems weird that the faraday one didn't hold for you this time, especially as you're using the same block
And you know the head has had a good skim

Good results so far though. If you can get the power to keep climbing higher up the revs you'll have a fair bit of power, and that torque figure is massive. Maybe further mapping will move it all up the rev range for you.

[Graham]

Good results so far though. If you can get the power to keep climbing higher up the revs you'll have a fair bit of power, and that torque figure is massive. Maybe further mapping will move it all up the rev range for you.

we haddnt got as far as doing any timing trims so im sure it will go higher unless by some pure fluke we hit the ideal advance amount

[Group4_Mark2]

My brother has a turbo engined John Deere tractor that is pressurising the system also after an engine rebuild. Will be having a look at it tomorrow. Be interested in what is causing the problem on both engines

Looks like the tractor problem was also the head gasket. He used a non John Deere Gasket which is not as good as the original. Also the threads in the block were very corroded and Since the head had been skimmed the head bolts needed to thread in a little further than before. Even though he applied the correct torque setting it seems that the gasket was not properly clamped. Tapping out the bolt holes and a new gasket should hopefully cure his problem.

Graham, hopefuly your problem will be fixed as easily. Excellent torque and power figures. A little more time on the rolling road should yield even greater results.

[Graham]

right we've had another go at this

i'll make the excuses first

we need to bare in mind im using last years exhaust manifold and system so thats a 2.5 system attached to a pinto ashley 3 piece, which im pretty sure must be holding the engine back, the cams are pretty mild, 292 degree inlet/284 exhaust as opposed to the m10's 336/328 and the impromptu head gasket change has cost me about .5 of a ratio,

although i never said on here i figured the best i was likely to see before the headgasket issue was 270-280 bhp, less than 250 would of been disspointing.

in the final throws i sacrifised 8lbft of torque for a healthy gain of 20 something bhp at the top end, partly because i wanted it to rev better and partly because of the fuel stand off issues (we got less stand off with short trumpets not to mention trying to package the induction system under the bonnet!

i seem to of lost the engine power graph fortunatly i also got dave to do a comparision against the m10

the old addage that 8v motors make more lowdown power than 16v clearly doesnt apply here the 16v ha beaten the m10 by a good margin everywhere even if you take into account the s14 is 100cc bigger


so here we are,l for now scores on the doors are 274.6bhp 235.6 lbft

[Group4_Mark2]

That is very impressive. With a proper exhaust manifold and 3" system I would think you might get up to 300bhp. I presume you got the cooling system sorted out with the gasket change.

[RWD fords rule]

That is an excellent result! and even more so on a tight budget with the ashley manifold, I am now well and truly convinced the ashley manifold can do the buisness on any pinto, perhaps the primaries are actually a size too big for a 2.0 8 valve.

Was the extra 20 bhp+ mostly due to the shorter inlet length or was it a few things that added up to that bhp difference, cam timing etc?

All that porting made a massive difference, would love to see what you could do to a 2.5 duratec! millington beater lol

[Graham]

we ran out of time so the we never touched the cam timing, so apart from timing and fueling we only played with induction length, best torque came with a length of 330mm from head face and that was 243lbft @3500, the engine didnt want longer, neither did it seem to want shorter as we tried using varyed trumpet lengths much as 100mm shorter and it didnt like it,

when i turned up for the second session i'd blagged some even shorter trumpets than the short ones we had already tried and had put them on when i had the head off, dave said they wouldnt work on the basis we had tried shorter but on the basis they were on the car we ran it up anyway, torque dropped from 243lb down to about 225, but power at the top end went from 257 to 264 and that was on the same map so no optomising to suit the length had been done.

as a rally car i've no doubt long would of been the way to go, but as a circuit car i wanted topend power, being pi$$ed off with passing mi16 pugs in the slow stuff only top have them sail past on the fast stuff, and in anycase we were massively up on the 8v which ever way you look at it, i grabbed the calculator and realised on the long length were were making 93lbft per litre and doubted any further mapping was going to improve that, dave agreed with me so on the basis of more topend power, ease of getting stuff under the bonnet, the much reduced fuel stand off on the short length and probably being able to map out some of the torque loss we went with really short.


i have switchable maps in the ecu, so idealy we should do a long and short trumpet map round somewhere like lydden i can pop the long ones in, i guess what i really need is a variable length intake system ecu controlled, then all i've got to do is fit a 3 inch bore exhaust with an exup valve in the exhaust

something else i've learned, most trumpets look fast but the shapes are actually wrong! i've edited this as i go along so i dont give away stuff that emerald are secretly working on, but i can deffo say mr weber knew a thing or two!

the duratecs an intersting comparision! karl wandered in whilst dave was doing a power run looked at the results and commented this motor would murder most duratecs! 275bhp isnt hard to get from one, but not at 6700!

me i cant wait to drive it, niether can i wait to start on the next evolution put some big valves in it, 320 degree cams irecon i can have 350bhp @8k anyone want to lend me some dosh lol

[david_white]

Well done, thats a really stonking result, especially as you knew the cams were a bit too mild and the exhaust less than ideal. Gonna be a hell of a lot of fun to drive, thats for sure.
Cant wait to see this new intake system, when is Dave going public with it?

I have a 3" system that would fit but you might need a quieter back box, but I guess there is no point doing it until you can get a manifold.

Are you gonna get to Brands still?