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Thread: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

  1. #1921
    Racer Decade Plus User Roadsport's Avatar
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    If you need to have the rods custom made would it not be worth while to source a desent block and go for the longer rods. Instead of paying the price for only half the benefit. Could reduse the polish on the bores too if that polished bit is on the thrust side. Send the scrap block back to the fellar you bought it from and source another one.
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    im looking for a block, but they dont come up often as just blocks and command serious money in engine form!

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Thats a real shame about the cracked block, did you return it?
    What sort of cc will 2 or 4mm on the rods give you?

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by david_white View Post
    Thats a real shame about the cracked block, did you return it?
    What sort of cc will 2 or 4mm on the rods give you?
    The displacement is determined by the stroke and the bore. Rod lenght does not affect the cc. It only improves the rod ratio, and helps the engine rev more freely. may hense up the power a bit.
    In my opinion this engine may well benefit from longer rods. The 1.8 - 1.9:1 is considdered the optimum rod ratio. Grahams engine now has 1.58:1 and the extra 4mm would make it 1.62:1
    Last edited by Roadsport; 18-10-2012 at 18:53.
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    still got the cracked block, im in two minds as as to whether to attempt to repair it by grinding the crack out to a slot and weld it back up again.

    the rod difference wont effect the engine cc, but in this case with the pistons well down the bores has a hell of an effect on the compression ratio. dont remember the figures but im around a whole ratio lower than i wanted to be, and if i do the intended cam swapping i need even more compression

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Any idea what caused it to crack? If you torque the cap down where does it take the crack?
    "Failure is always an option." - Adam Savage

  7. #1927
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    In my opinion this engine may well benefit from longer rods. The 1.8 - 1.9:1 is considdered the optimum rod ratio. Grahams engine now has 1.58:1 and the extra 4mm would make it 1.62:1
    bmw certainly thought longer rods would be ideal,

    2.0 m10 and 3.0 m30 were 134mm/80mm stroke = 1.675
    when they turned it into the s14, they went to 144/84 giving the best ratio they used of 1.714
    2.5 s14 wasnt as good at 1.655.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post
    Any idea what caused it to crack? If you torque the cap down where does it take the crack?

    dunno what caused it, if it is genuinely ex dtm and it must of come from something special as its been stress relieved internally has lost of non std drilling to oil ways and these huge screw in alloy cor plugs, you can bet you bottom dollar it failed at very high revs, they used to rev them to 10k. one of the bores has very slight damage, my guess is it threw a rod or broke a crank at a billion revs.

    torquing the bots up doesnt effect the crack, and a bearing fits properly, although the housing is a couple of thou egg shaped, with the crack running upwards at about 10.30 i dont see it being a major concern unless it spreads far enough to reach the water jacket because most of the load from the crank is carried into the block walls, i think i'd chance it in a road car, BUT im looking to push the revs higher, im already using 8200, with hotter cams i expect it will be going to 8500 or even 9, if something lets go at those revs you usually just end up with a very expensive pile of scrap

  9. #1929
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    its looking like i've found another block another bucket of cash needed!

    current line of thought is wondering whether to be greedy on rod length by going to 149, though i probably wont because that will mean i have to machine down piston crowns

  10. #1930
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Nice! Lets hope this one gets the thumbs up. I can feel your pain on the rod lenght issue. Any thoughts on what will the dynamic compression be like with the 148(?)mm rods?
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    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    though i probably wont because that will mean i have to machine down piston crowns
    lighter pistons though , good news on finding a block G
    its not dead till it's buried!


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  12. #1932
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    lighter pistons though , good news on finding a block G
    Those pistons look well thought out, and as such I'm thinking is there any escess material to remove without compromising the strenght?
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post
    Those pistons look well thought out, and as such I'm thinking is there any escess material to remove without compromising the strenght?

    your right im i shall have the rods made to 148, @148 i still may need to trim a fraction off the pistons anyway, so i might be chancing my arm if i go greedy.

    as an aside whilst scanning german ebay i found 98mm stroker cranks
    up until now i was lead to believe 94mm was the max that would fit giving me the possibility of a 2.7 engine,

    a 98mm stroke with a max poss bore of 95.8 would give 2826cc

  14. #1934
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    How much do the custom rods cost? I'm having a set made that sets me back 900€ / £730

    And naturally it comes to mind that these mega cc bits could be used with the current rods once you mill a one mm off the pistons. And you save the £ and trouble of having new rods made , it would be stupid NOT to buy the new crank and pistons =)
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    How much do the custom rods cost? I'm having a set made that sets me back 900€ / £730
    thats what fardon charge, though i think theres vat on top.

    with those megga strokes of 94 and 98mm, i think you'd have have pistons with proper skirts or rod angles will create serious sideloading on the bores, and they will rubbish the rod/stroke ratio again, current pistons only have a 25mm compression height so there really isnt room to get them much shorter.

    my 91mm crank leaves a mere 2mm clearance between big end bolts and crankcase walls, so 98mm must mean grinding the sides of the block away.

    for the moment its going to be same crank, same pistons in new block and longer rods

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    I was only kidding.Would be a quite radical update and demand another bucket or two of cash to complete.

    Are you in a free displacement class? Or re you penalised for bigger engine?
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post

    Are you in a free displacement class? Or re you penalised for bigger engine?
    i can go upto 3.0 without effecting the class, making the engine bigger does increase the minimum weight i have to comply with, BUT as im a good 90kgs over it anyway it still wouldnt be an issue

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Need to keep the reliability that has served you so well over the last couple of seasons mate, but that said iam sure everyone will be a little quicker next year so a few more horses are maybe a must.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by lee76 View Post
    Need to keep the reliability that has served you so well over the last couple of seasons mate, but that said iam sure everyone will be a little quicker next year so a few more horses are maybe a must.
    your not wrong lee

    thats mainly why i culled the season when i did, for fear of it going bang. lets not forget the entire top end of my engine was build from second hands bits, and the bottom end was built reusing second hand bearings! im scaring myself now though when it comes to replacing all those bits with proper new bits.
    everything seems to be £250, valves were, so too will be valve springs and buckets, anything that isnt £250 seems to be multiples of that amount!
    Last edited by Graham; 24-10-2012 at 18:06.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Thats the only downfall as we all go quicker we get poorer.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    right today i worked it out!

    whats been bugging me is why the engine has been wearing main bearings, it never did as a turbo, or as an 8v, the other odd thing is bigends werent effected, indicating they were not being starved of oil which would suggest the oil supply was good enough and strangely the pressure always held up at low revs, as the oil supply system is the same 8 and 16v, the problem wasnt there, the blocks the same, yes i use more revs as a 16v, but not much more only about 200rpm, it kept coming back to the crank, but why would the steel crank wear mains?

    today it dawned on me, the steel crank has two drillings feeding each big end, std bmw cranks one, at the same time i recalled something about long stroke high rpm mini cranks and cross drilling the oil way through the big end and plugging the origonal oil supply hole, the reason being at high revs centrifugal force was sending so much oil to the big end the mains were being starved, by turning the oil way through 90 degrees it reduced the centrifugal effect sucking all the oil from the mains.

    it also perhaps answers anotehr thought, why did bmw use main bearing shells with 5 oil feed holes on the longer stroke 2.5 as opposed to 2 oil feed holes on the shorter stroke 2.3, to improve oil flow to the crank,

    now im not about to go drilling and tapping galleries in the crank, but i figure if i can increase the oil supply to the mains i can have the same effect, i already mod some of the galleries to improve flow, but leave the main gallery largely alone, although i do know one well respected tuner that does mod the whole gallery. the other thing perhaps i should do is talk to pace about increasing the volume of oil the pump supplies.

  22. #1942
    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    since you have good oil pressure, will those mods help ? or are crank mods the only way due to the laws of physics working against you......... ?

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    since you have good oil pressure, will those mods help ? or are crank mods the only way due to the laws of physics working against you......... ?

    yes it has good oil pressure, low rpm its as good as ever, but strangely not as good as it used to be with bmw cranks at high revs, which was something else confusing me, i think more oil way mods will fix it, but as i said i'll talk to pace, we might be able to fit wider pressure rotors to boost the pumps supply.

    you see im now thinking ahead to further evolution's of the engine, stroking it out to 2.7 or 2.8. so i need to get to the bottom of whats happening.

    why am i looking to go so big on cc? well in 2.5 form bmw got them upto about 365bhp, i believe rick wood got one to 380, but that requires so many revs it becomes a grenade and has a power band about 3 revs wide whilst lasting minutes between rebuilds, but i can go out to 2.8, then 350bhp should be achievable with some measure of reliability and a sensible power band, i had fun playing against cossies when it was turbo'd, now i want to beat them without one! i already beat some of them but the really quick ones just blow me away.

    for the moment, if i can stop it wearing bearings and get a reliable and usable 300bhp i will be a very happy man

  24. #1944
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Does the Pace pump have an adjustable pressure release valve? Maybe tightenig it to raise the oil pressure would cause a bigger pressure to the big end thus leaving some oil for the mains.
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  25. #1945
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post
    Does the Pace pump have an adjustable pressure release valve? Maybe tightenig it to raise the oil pressure would cause a bigger pressure to the big end thus leaving some oil for the mains.
    it does though theres not much adjustment left and last time i adjusted it togive more pressure it made no difference on a hot engine. The more i think about it the more improvments i think i can make in the oil ways, its also probably time to switch oils, ive been running 20/50 because it always worked well in the past, but going to 10/60 is likely to help.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    20/50 getting too thin when propper hot?
    "Failure is always an option." - Adam Savage

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    theres more to it than that, the pressure isnt any different whether on lap 2 or lap 15, plus having a big dry sump tank i added about 3.5 litres more oil which would of meant the oil took longer to heat up and effect pressure but that had no effect
    Last edited by Graham; 27-10-2012 at 10:52.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Could it be that you've met the limit of your pump? Well as you said earlier the Pace bays will propably have a clue whats going on.
    "Failure is always an option." - Adam Savage

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Think 300bhp is about right for next year Graham thats what we are trying to hit. The cars should be close again next year it should be good fun with a few others joining in.

  30. #1950
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    maybe, but that might just down to plumbing, the oil leaves the pump via a dash 10 fitting which is about internal 14mm dia, goes into an adapter in the block which reduces things to 12mm, the oil ways in the block then makes a 90 degree turn to the main gallery which is about 10mm dia, so the galleries in the block cannot flow as much oil as the pipe from the pump, the original feed drilling into the block was even smaller, i opened it out, because the oil pressure is read after the block adapter but before the main gallery it might already be showing less pressure than the pump generates, and the actual pressure in the main gallery might be even lower still,

    it could be if i open out the galleries the pressure will actually drop, but if thats the case its because theres more oil flowing to the bearings, and lets face it they need volume of oil more than pressure

  31. #1951
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    some progress sort of, some time ago i bought a genuine 2.5 s14 head off ebay it was very cheap!





    you now know why. clearly its dropped a valve, judging by one of the inlet guides being deeper into the port than all the rest its likely that what actually happened was it was buzzed or used an un-advisably radical cam on the std shim arrangement, std shims sit in the top of cam buckets and can be flicked out.

    most likely a shim was flicked out, jammed and next time the inlet cam cam round, it tried to lift the cam way past its normal lift, the top of the retainer and collets punched the guide down and at the same time mashed a valve in a piston. ive just received a set of oversize valves from america, even with import duties etc etc they are a fraction of the price of buying them here. and have now dropped the head off to have it welded up and new inserts.

    im just waiting on the new block to turn up, and some money so i can afford NEW valves springs, new steel followers and go to group A bda style top hat shims, so i can spend even more money on hotter cam, and not worry about it self destructing every time i rev it

  32. #1952
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    done some physical work on the car today, made a new pair of engine mounts, the idea being to straighten the engine up a bit, so the sump works better, but mainly to give more space to get a decent exhaust manifold in, got to rejig gearbox mounts and linkage now

    lh mount



    lost the pic of the rh one but it looks pretty similar

  33. #1953
    Racer Decade Plus User Roadsport's Avatar
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    What kind of exhaust do you have in mind?
    "Failure is always an option." - Adam Savage

  34. #1954
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    space may yet dictate which design it its but it will either be a 4 into 1 or a 4,2,1 using very short secondaries, something these engines seem to favor, the real issue is space because it wants 2 inch primaries!

  35. #1955
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    incidentally Friday i ordered the new 148mm rods, tbh i dont see a 4mm change in rod length making a dramatic difference to the engine, other than the cr will go up, yeah i know the crank postiition/rod angle improves, but having got all technical with pens, paper and a protractor with the crank at 90 degrees the difference in rod angle is a mere 2 degrees

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Do they make a pino manifold with 2" primaries ?

    Well the CR is a big improvement and the improved rod angle is a bonus. Both in the right direction. Only two degrees? I guess thats the down side of the long throw crank.
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadsport View Post
    Do they make a pino manifold with 2" primaries ?
    .
    nope they make s14 manifolds with 2 inch primaries for eye watering amounts of cash, even then they are for lhd so no use to me, i dont mind cutting up ashley pinto manifolds, but buying a bmw one for a 4 figure sum and cutting that will take balls lol! so i guess i will have to make one just like you did

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Making one your self is a good way of getting everything to fit. 4-2-1 "merge" collectors are propably easier to do than 4-1. I used a pre fabricated collector. I know I should try a 4-2-1 myself but as for now I can bring my self to do it but maybe when the snow melts.
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Talk to Matt Simpson.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Click image for larger version Name:	s14 headrepair 004.jpg Views:	228 Size:	30.9 KB ID:	60840

    a little more progress, heads back from being welded and having new inserts, need to port it now, although the machine shop advised me to be very gentle in one area of the throat because it was actually holed through to the water jacket

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