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Thread: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

  1. #2001
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    i wont quote it all what more could you ask for

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Would love to see your take on an E46, sure there are loads out there racing already but I bet you could bring a whole load of new ideas to the party.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Wow, that's it. I've done it..
    51 pages of sheer enthusiasm, will power, know how, and inspiration from one man.
    It's taken me 5 evenings, but it was worth every minute.
    I'm sure I'm not the only one richer for reading your posts Graham.
    Thanks for taking the time to write about your experiences on and off the race track. I've learned alot!
    My fave bit - alternator off the diff output flange with out a doubt!
    Best wishes for the coming season.
    Cheers
    Iain

    PS, Now for David's Sierra!
    Last edited by IainRS17T; 24-04-2013 at 21:35.

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  5. #2004
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    You didn't read his other posts! There is no coming season as graham has broken the car up and sold most/if not all of the car to put towards his planned future business venture unfortunately!

  6. #2005
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Oh, shame...
    No, I've been beavering away soley on this for a good few evenings now after being away from TS for sometime...
    Well I hope the new business takes off Graham. If you apply yourself to that, like you have with your race car, you won't fail
    Iain

  7. #2006
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Quote Originally Posted by dangerousdave View Post
    You didn't read his other posts! There is no coming season as graham has broken the car up and sold most/if not all of the car to put towards his planned future business venture unfortunately!
    yep, although i have recycled a little of the money from breaking the race car into a new, older car a bmw 2002, whilst i had a terrific time racing the E30 i was never quite as at one with it as i was its predecessor a 2002tii, a car i used to drift without actually realising i was drifting, after a race it wasnt unusual for people to comment on me drifting it, although i wasnt often aware that was what i was actually doing!

    my memory not being quite what it was this threads coming handy already as reference material for some aspects of teh new car.

    when ive made a million i'll revive it properly with another e30 project, for now watch this space http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=329587
    Last edited by Graham; 22-08-2013 at 12:07.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Enjoyed reading through the thread. Great race at Brands too! I had the same thing in my old e21, except I was the one who couldn't get past and it was a Manta not a Mini keeping me back.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    great thread, pity about splitting it

  10. #2009
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    yes, but 99% of it lives on in other cars, quite a few bits ended up going down under.

    when i have 30K to spare i'll by myself another one!
    Last edited by Graham; 25-01-2014 at 21:35.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    wow..

  12. #2011
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    wow its now 4 years since i last raced the e30.
    although my head has been full of business, and scrutineering lately i miss racing so much. i have actually renewed my licence.

    ive thought long and hard about the 2002 beemer, but i know how i want to build that and dont want to compromise the spec just to get out on track, so it looks like theres another e30 waiting in the wings for me to do a few races next year

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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    Now that's some good news!

    Keep us posted!

    Cheers,

    Mário Santos.

  14. #2013
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    Re: A race bmw 316, now S14 powered again!

    right im back well sort of,

    im not going to start a new thread, just carry on with the old one on the basis different car same dna!

    first off thanks to nigel innes for selling it to me financially it wasnt my best move, it came to me for engine work, but instead of giving nigel a nice big bill for fixing it i gave him even more money to buy it, oh well, the price a paid was very fair and even though i m going to spend a bit on it, i couldnt begun to put the 2002 together for the same money, so for the moment thats just waiting, its in a warm and dry workshop so its not coming to any harm.

    anyway here it is a one time 316 now m20 powered, its got decent suspension front brakes and uprated 4.1 lsd and multipoint cage so its a very good starting point





    the engine has had some work already, block honed, those pistons are fordged JE, which ive machined a bit to drop the compression to offset the 84mm m52 crank in it, so its now 85x84 so 2860cc.
    as i have only raced with m10 and s14 engines im really interested to see how the m20 shapes up, yes i can see its a foot longer than the other engines and theres a fair bit ahead of the axle line, and all the "experts" say it wont handle but they said that when we swapped Andy pipes x/f for a pinto and were wrong!


    Last edited by Graham; 19-11-2016 at 11:30.

  15. #2014
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    Re: A race bmw 316,

    plans for it, well nothing major. the head has been ported but seeing as i have a flow bench it would be rude not to try and make it better. and as its already on an emerald ecu and sell jenveys i cant resist putting it on throttle bodies

    im also going to junk the std servo/master cylinder assembly in favour of a bias pedal box, the brakes being one of the worst aspects of a rhd e30.

    pretty much thats it then go racing...........................
    Last edited by Graham; 19-11-2016 at 11:37.

  16. #2015
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Been trying and failing!

    the head has been ported previously, looks quite nice shiney and well finished, far shiner than my heads ever are, but shiney doesnt equil flow, i could see from the manifold gaskets the ports have been opened out, so was hopefull for some decent flow figures.



    i wont bother with a graph at the moment its not worth it. i dont have an unmodified casting to check so hunted around on the web and found several sets of flow figures for std and modified versions, it seems this head sits somewhere in the middle of all of them, peak flow being 105cfm @10" so in other word average flow for an average big valve pinto, and somewhat surprisingly less than i can achieve from an m10 which has a much less downdrafted port, a bit of prodding about suggested what works on a pinto should work on this head, so a bit of grinding later, i had made it worse opps,
    especially bearing in mind this is the only head i have, more grinding still no improvement, so i got more aggressive and finally got a flow gain, i say gain, it was less loss! its almost back to where i started, actually i lie, i have a fractional gain but the cam dont lift that far

    so whats next? well i know i can get a bit more high lift flow, also know im going to hurt it at low lift in doing so, all a bit disappointing really, 105 cfm isnt great, BUT there is an upside, i have 6 not 4 cylinders worth of that airflow so its going to make some decent if not ground shattering power. on a pinto you would be in the 160-180bhp bracket with the sort of cam i have, so with 50% more cylinders should see 240bhp which incidentally was what this engine used to make but im not done in yet, that 105cfm is using 42mm valves so std pinto sized ones, so perhaps its not so bad after all. in a last ditch attempt to make it flow properly ive ordered some big inlets, but at only 1mm bigger its not going to turn the head into a world beater thats for sure. im certain you could get bigger than 43mm in the head but not without new valve seats so were not going there, its getting 43mm inlets and it will flow what it flows, i just have a suspicion its going to need 4 foot long inlet trumpets for some ram air to make it rev properly, well as far as i dare on a near standard bottom end.

    Last edited by Graham; 23-11-2016 at 20:10.

  17. #2016
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Graham do you think the ports are too big and would you consider epoxy filling and reporting to change the port size / shape?
    Have you seen the theory for 'high velocity' porting where the port is narrowed considerably especially on the short turn radius? I only ask as a guy tried this on a 600 yamaha engine that runs to 14,000rpm and picked up airflow all through the range even though the port was quite pinched. If interested, have a quick read..... http://mototuneusa.com/homework.htm - I'd be interested on your thoughts?

  18. #2017
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Graham do you think the ports are too big and would you consider epoxy filling and reporting to change the port size / shape?
    Have you seen the theory for 'high velocity' porting where the port is narrowed considerably especially on the short turn radius? I only ask as a guy tried this on a 600 yamaha engine that runs to 14,000rpm and picked up airflow all through the range even though the port was quite pinched. If interested, have a quick read..... http://mototuneusa.com/homework.htm - I'd be interested on your thoughts?
    thanks i will have a read of that in a bit.

    the ports are quite big, but there is an earlier version of the casting with smaller ports but its well proven they flow considerably less

  19. #2018
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    when are we testing


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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    right small update,

    my oversize inlet valves have turned up, they came from ireland engineering in the states, i also got a set of uprated rocker arms at the same time, all at a decent price unlit fedex sent me a customs bill over over £100 some weeks later !!

    the valves are only 1mm bigger, but also have a slightly waisted stem just at the point where the bmw valve goes fatter. bad picture so im not sure the difference will show.



    i recut a seat to suit the bigger valve, actually i need to go a fraction more as the seat isnt quite wide enough, but i have a flow gain flow at the bottom end is the same, its a little down around 150-200 thou lift after that its gains all the way, dont get me wrong its still not a world beater, but im up about 7cfm at the top end, with a little more to come with some carefull seat cutting and a better 30 degree back cut on the valve head. i dont think the waisted stem is actually doing much, i think the gains have mainly come from the fact that the throat now has a bit of a radius to it where it meets the valve seat.



    comparison between std and uprated rocker, the uprated one has a lot more "meat" at the point where they typically break

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    That rocker has been cast completely differently too looks loads stronger.
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Any updates Graham?

    Can't leave us hanging like this.

    Cheers,

    Mário Santos.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Quote Originally Posted by mario r h santos View Post
    Any updates Graham?

    Can't leave us hanging like this.

    Cheers,

    Mário Santos.
    you aint the only one hanging, i haven't touched it, been to busy at work with both customers cars and the install of our mot bay, should be some progress soon, i hope!

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    its been a while but i have updates!

    thanks to my son the car has been de-stickered to be honest it looks a bit plain jane now, BUT im not going to advertise someone else's business. stephen also stripped out the oe servo/brake master/pedal box in preparation for a bias box.




    the engine has also seen a bit more work, i bought a webcon DCOE inlet manifold for it, quite a bit of kit, cnc machined from a lump of billet, unfortunatly it cam with drawbacks! the transition from round inlet opening to the shape of the inlet port was far from smooth, it had no end of awful steps and lumps in it and the port angle didnt match the angle of the head leaving a truly bad shape inlet, made much worse by the fact the manifold if very very short, i much improved it with a lot of grinding, but the short turn from throttle body into manifold was very abrupt, i decided a spacer would improve things, and bought 10mm thick dcoe flanges off ebay, yes i know thicker would of been better and i could of made them, but i want to go racing this year before we get cold weather, so buying something off the peg has probably saved me a week!








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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    its been a while but i have updates!

    thanks to my son the car has been de-stickered to be honest it looks a bit plain jane now, BUT im not going to advertise someone else's business. stephen also stripped out the oe servo/brake master/pedal box in preparation for a bias box.




    the engine has also seen a bit more work, i bought a webcon DCOE inlet manifold for it, quite a bit of kit, cnc machined from a lump of billet, unfortunatly it cam with drawbacks! the transition from round inlet opening to the shape of the inlet port was far from smooth, it had no end of awful steps and lumps in it and the port angle didnt match the angle of the head leaving a truly bad shape inlet, made much worse by the fact the manifold if very very short, i much improved it with a lot of grinding, but the short turn from throttle body into manifold was very abrupt, i decided a spacer would improve things, and bought 10mm thick dcoe flanges off ebay, yes i know thicker would of been better and i could of made them, but i want to go racing this year before we get cold weather, so buying something off the peg has probably saved me a week!








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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    time is running out! i want to race this year and in nice weather, it prob wont happen, but im trying for it
    and on that basis im trying to do a bit every day either before i start or leave work.

    pedal box is built up and ready to go in




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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Nice big rest for yer right foot LOL!

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    its only take me about a year to do so, but the head is back together, yay


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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!







    heads back on cams timed in. for years ive used DTI gauges but i treated myself to a digital one recently, i love it

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    real progress


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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Good work graham when’s its debut?
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    i have actually had it running, then it all went a bit pear shaped, the fuel system was plumbed in a strange way, which gave me concern, it then sprang a leak form a fuel pipe in the cabin, so i decided to re plumb it and replace the standard tank with an escort 12 gallon with internal swirl pot, so a spent a small fortune on a tank, new pump filters and various bits of areoquip fittings. At that point my elderly dads health took a turn for the worst, plus i found i was scrutineering just about every weekend, dealing with dad and working 12 hours most days, so a pretty much gave up, then we lost Dad, leaving us more stuff to deal with, work wents nuts, my 12 hour days became 14, and so it went on, so basically the car hasnt been touched for a couple of months, except the other day, one of the employees was at loose end so i got him to drop the exhaust and prop off to remove the standard tank, so although it has run and has got throttle bodies on it, its further away from being complete than when i last posted!


    Last edited by Graham; 06-11-2017 at 20:40.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Sorry to hear about you dad graham


    Glad the business seems to be doing well though

    The car will be waiting for you when you have to the time look forward to seeing the updates
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    thanks.

    works ok, in truth its all a bit hand to mouth, acquiring the business next door has had a lot of benefits, but it makes our rent and rate overheads massive in relation to the size of the client base and number of staff, the biggest problem though is there is only one of me, i do the pricing, invoicing, mot testing, diagnostics, and all the major gearbox and engine work, so what tends to happen is the rest of the staff can run out of work, but im always chasing my tail trying to get stuff done so i still do 12 hour days even when on paper we as a company are short of work. i could do a lot more engine work, but there isnt so much its viable to employ someone to do most of what i do

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    May sound daft but may I suggest sending one of the more intelligent sprogs to MOT inspector training - its a nice source of income stream and you don't necessarily need the distraction in the grand scheme? Is that a Mr Walker adjustable ram pipe I spy - gonna use the whole set? Read impressive results on the Walker blog.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    ive got one that could in time, but he needs to learn a fair bit more, and another that is actually older than me, who is qualified enough to do it, but doesn't really want to, so he makes excuses about having to go up into the loft to find his city and guilds certificates. trouble is now all the training has been farmed out to the private sector, its a costly exercise to put someone through it, especially as you end up paying for hotels whilst the courses are run. to make it worse the pass criteria has been raised a lot, so its not worth putting someone forward unless your sure they are up to it and and they actually want to test

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    yes that is a walker adjustable ram pipe, i do have 5 more, i have back to back tested even if you forget the adjustable bit the shape works better than supposedly superior full radius pipes in most applications

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    progress . more than the pic shows actually, i decided to make things simple and use an escort tank with a built in swirl pot, but then i had to weld a well into the boot floor to accommodate the swirl pot! initially i just cut a hole, but MSA regulation does not allow exposed alloy tanks, plus the swirl pot is right over the rear silencer, and also in the firing line if a drive shaft failed.

    the pic does look rather like everything is just thrown in, but that partly because i was running very low on fittings and i really really didnt want to buy anymore, so i just had to find a way to make it all connect up, ditching the badly plumbed standard tank set up has cost about £600 with new filters pumps etc, i could of done it cheaper, and in the past i would have but the scrut in me is saying dont take chances with high pressure fuel lines


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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    it not race ready yet, but the engine races for sure
    https://www.facebook.com/emeraldm3d/...WwnXwM&fref=nf

  40. #2039
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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    That sounds sweet.

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    Re: A race bmw 316, m10, s14, m20, turbo, na, its been the lot!

    Quote Originally Posted by rallyrob View Post
    That sounds sweet.
    yeah, its still got a bit to much compression, at low revs any real throttle opening it wants to det even with the timing fairly retarded, as the revs go up and the head start to strangle airflow its happy, most we saw on the rollers was 267.5bhp , but that was at the limiter which currently is only at 7K and power was still climbing slowly, it will probably make a bit more power with a few miles, as the first full power run with timing and mixture correct gave 262, but after we did some more work on the mid range mapping and did a further full power run it went up to 267, so it loosened up a fair bit with not a lot of running, so a few more miles will probably show a few more horses.

    the main thing is engine wise at least its ready to race.

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