does the speedo drive from the 4 speed fit the type 9?
i have heard of people saying the type 9 is miles out on the speedo whereas i know at the moment my speedo is only a little bit out
does the speedo drive from the 4 speed fit the type 9?
i have heard of people saying the type 9 is miles out on the speedo whereas i know at the moment my speedo is only a little bit out
plus what's all this about circlips holding the speedo drives in?
Old post but I am going to reply anyway.
The type 9 box has shorter layshaft needles supporting the gear cluster so it is weaker than the type E.
Also the first gear ratio is very similar if not the same so it could also strip its teeth.
The strongest type 9 is the 2.8 capri box, it has stronger bearings and a taller first gear which would have more teeth in engagement and should not fail with 200bhp+
Jason
How do the people like the position of the T9 gearlever compared to the origional position? In my opinion the original postion (Type-E) is nice and close to the steeringwheel. I'm afraid the position of a T9 gearlever will be to far from the steeringwheel.
So for the people who have converted; how do you like/ compare the new gearlever "feeling"?
Cheers,
Mark
don't really notice the difference to be honest & my type 9 has only been in a month or so
Hello i'm from the Netherlands and new here. I've got a question:
If you have a Mk2 1.3 automatic and you want to put a 2L pinto and T9 gearbox in it, then:
- engine sump should be Alloy RS2000?
- you can use origional gearbox mounts?
- you can use origional propshaft from automatic?
- do you have to modify the gearstick hole on the tunnel (backwards, or is the automatic hole big enough? If not, how far should you move the hole?
thanks,
Dirk
Last edited by dirkvanginneke; 14-06-2009 at 17:17.
Dirk,
welcome. Now you have asked that question 3 times in 3 different forum-sections. Once is enough.
Have a read through this thread and if there are any questions left, post them here.
Tot ziens, Leon.
Mine has the Sierra crossmember - it makes the 'box sit too low and certainly doesn't need spacing downwards. The car is about to get the floor plated to strengthen it, and a custom mount made up from flat plate with the Sierra rubber fitted to the centre.
"TEA! FIVE SUGARS."
Type 9 gearbox modifications
I am rebuilding my quaife clubman type 9 gearbox at the moment and I have discovered a few weak points in the gearbox that can be inproved upon, all of the modifications can also be done to a standard gearbox.
Here are most of the gearbox parts
Imput shaft on left, mainshaft with all of its gears left in place.
1st gear its the largest, 2nd is the next step smaller, 3rd another step smaller, 4th gear is on the left (part of imput shaft), 5th gear is the smallest which is an overdrive gear.
Layshaft cluster, (5th gear is missing in this pic, it goes on the end splines).
Layshaft which supports the layshaft cluster above, the layshaft does not turn.
Layshaft needle bearings and end washers, the needle bearings allow the Layshart cluster to rotate on the stationary layshaft.
Longer heavy duty layshaft needles can be fitted as shown here.
Normally there are 3 washers and shorter needles, when using the longer needles discard one washer and fit as normal, replace layshaft if there is any wear on it at all, this one will be replaced.
Gearbox casing, showing where the layshaft is held tight in the casing (the small hole towards the bottom of the casing)
Now getting back to the mainshaft, all of the gears spin on the mainshaft until they are engaged, when in gear the mainshaft turns at the same speed as whichever gear you are in, however every other gear is slipping on the mainshaft.
Here is how the mainshaft gears are lubricated, see the small holes at the side of these gears, there are three of these small holes in each gear, you might be wondering how oil ever gets in there when the gears are spinning as the mainshaft gears are not submersed in oil, the layshaft cluster throws oil up onto the mainshaft as it turns.
The problem is the mainshaft gears tend to wear out the mainshaft over time as a result of oil starvation.
Bare mainshaft with gears removed
This is where 1st gear spins on the mainshaft, surprisingly there is very little wear here.
Here is where 2nd gear spins on the mainshaft, notice the blue colour and wear on the shaft, the mainshaft can be used again but it would be very wise to increase the oil supply to every gear and also not to use too thick of a gear oil.
3rd gear
5th gear, notice the direction of the splines on the mainshaft, and how 5th gear only wore on one side, this is because 5th gear is almost always spinning faster than the mainshaft, in 1st, 2nd 3rd and 4th, the direction of the oil grooves is starving the oil from the left hand side in this pic and feeding oil to the gear on the right hand side of the gear, this is why there is almost no wear on the right hand side.
It is a mass production error as the splines on the left should be spiraling in the other direction, it should look like a tractor tyre thread pattern if you know what I mean.
Inside of 2nd gear, notice the dark rings where there is obvious oil starvation issues.
Modification to mainshaft gears to increase oil supply to where they spin on the mainshaft, similar to tear dropping a crankshaft.
Use a 2mm and 3mm carbide burr in a dremel to create an oil scoop, radius the entry into the hole on one side and leave the other side as standard to act as the oil scoop.
Very important is to note which way each gear spins on the mainshaft, they all turn clockwise when standing infront of the the imput shaft end, (as all ford engine turn clockwise)
Carefully modify 5th gear in a similar way, gringing a small amount of material away where I have marked it with tipex, being carefull not to touch the gear teeth.
That's all for today
Regards
Jason
good info
Update
I just had another look at the difference in length between the short and long layshaft needles, the difference in length is actually 2 washers, so remove two washers when upgrading to the longer needles, fit only one washer on each end of the long needles.
The difference in length is two of the washers, there are 21 of these needles so you can imagine the difference in surface area, much better setup.
The longer needles are designed for the type-E 4 speed version of the type-9, it uses the short needles on one end of teh layshaft and the longer ones on the other end, only using 19 needles each end instead of 21 in the 5 speed, (due to the slightly larger diameter layshaft in the type-9)
Modified 2nd gear
Modified 3rd gear
Modified 5th gear, go easy with the grinding on 5th as you don't want to create a weak point, just give the hole a slight radius on the side closest the centre of the gear teeth.
Ball shape carbide cutters are best for this, use a 3mm cutter for the channel and a 2mm cutter for making the radius into the holes.
Here is a potentially big problem with the type-9 if not serviced regularly.
1st-2nd-3rd and 4th gear baulk rings will eventually crack at these two weak points shown below, I couldn't find a cracked baulk ring to show you as I recently threw them away but they crack where I have tipexed this old baulk ring.
When used in competition they always crack right in the corners shown here.
The cracks then spread across the baulk ring and sooner or later your gearbox will most likely stick in whichever gear the baulk ring belongs to.
You can buy steel baulk rings from quaife which are much stronger but that causes a bigger problem as it wears out the mainshaft gears, the synchro taper is now working with steel against steel instead of brass on steel and it is much cheaper to replace the brass baulk rings than replacing gears!
My advice is to regularly replace the baulk rings, every season or so in a rally or race car, then you shouldn't have any trouble so long as you do use the clutch lol.
Here is a new baulk ring shown on the right and old on left.
That's all for now
Jason
Really interesting stuff
In the last pic of the old and new baulk rings together is the new one the other way up to the old one?
Update
Here is how to increase oil supply to 5th gear.
The small 10mm hole towards the bottom of the casing in the middle is the only oil supply to 5th gear.
That hole matches up with the 5th gear sanwich plate, (again the hole in the centre of this pic).
5th gear oil supply channel inside gearbox casing.
As you can see the oil channel is much larger than the 10mm oil hole at the end.
Simply drill the oil supply hole in the main casing and the sanwich plate out to 12.5mm and countersink afterwards to increase the oil supply to 5th gear.
Modified casing
Inside casing, the 12.5mm hole is the full width of the oil channel.
Enlarged hole in sanwich plate, also remember to increase the size of the oil hole in the main casing to sanwich plate gasket.
How to increase oil supply to rear mainshaft bearing
Here is a pic of the sanwich plate, the tipex shows the area to modify.
There is a square corner here that restricts the oil flow into the mainshaft bearing.
5th gear on the layshaft cluster picks up oil and throws it up towards the area I have tipexed in this pic, see how the corner restricts how much oil gets thrown up into the rear mainshaft bearing above.
Modified sanwich plate, narrow this section down to a few mm thick and radius off the corner so much more oil can be thrown into the mainshaft ball bearing.
Another area to modify
Here is a pic of the tail casing, showing the speedo gear bung, if this comes loose almost all of the gearbox oil will leak out and quickly destroy the gearbox, drill and wire this bung to make sure it stays there, if it got loose the wire stops it from coming out and you will notice the oil leak before damage is done, alternatively you could fit a few short roll pins in there.
More info to come
Jason
How to increase oil feed to rear layshaft roller bearing.
Look at the two steps where the bearing goes into the sanwich plate, the lower half of the bearing housing has been relieved on a milling machine to increase the gap between 5th gear and the sanwich plate so that far more oil can flow into the roller bearing.
This can easily be done with a die grinder, the lower half of this bearing support should be machined so that it is about 4mm lower than the upper half.
Regards
Jason
Last edited by RWD fords rule; 15-07-2009 at 17:16.
Good work there Jason. I have always had a major dislike for gearboxes. Having read this I have a new found interest.
Tom
i have been searching, but i didn't find an aswer yet, I have a couple of Type 9 gearboxes, but don't like to brake stuff, so
A friend of mine has a RS2000 16v engine, and it has 190 something hp and 170 -180 ish lb/ft. I wanne try the engine in my cortina, and see what it does, but i don't want to engine swamp if I break the Type 9. Its just a standard type 9, nothing more nothing less.
Can i savely engine swap it our do I need a clubman kit for the gearbox?
Ford Taunus Going RS2300 16v with 48s!!!
The only type 9 gearbox that will take that bhp and torque is the capri v6 heavy duty box, all the other boxes will sh1t a brick with that power, yes a clubman box will take that power fine, go for a tran-x gearkit instead they are much better as 1st and 2nd gears are floating on a specially made needle roller bearing, use a 2.4 first gear and a 1.69 second for rallying.
Regards
Jason
crap, so i won't being swapping over the engine
Other question, if I order a gearkit, will the standard casing hold?
Some people say, the the cover needs to be stronger, need to worry about that to?
This will be my first gearbox rebuild.
Last edited by Arieke; 06-08-2009 at 14:35.
Ford Taunus Going RS2300 16v with 48s!!!
Std cover is fine for that bhp, personally I doubt it adds much strength anyway, just fit the kit into a std type 9 gearbox, buy a rebuild kit + a new set of baulk rings, do the mods above and it will be very reliable.
A cheaper option is to buy a gear kit from BGH geartech, they do the best budget options, the E8 2.8 sporting close ratio kit would easily take the power that engine has, http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/html/gear_kits.html
A std type 9 casing would need to be machined to fit the 2.8 gear kit but you could get it machined pretty easily, don't attempt the gearox rebuild unless you have patience, attention to detail and some previous experiance.
I was looking at the Tran X gear kits and saw this.
http://www.tran-x.com/gearkits/T9helical.html
NEW! Low Ratio (2.98) 1st Gear Type Helical Gearkit
This new kit lowers the 1st gear original ratio to a much more user friendly 2.98. A brand new main shaft 1st gear and a used/reclaimed lay gear cluster that has been modified/fitted with a new first gear. Also available in kit form where the lay shaft cluster and new 1st gear are supplied.
1st 2.98 2nd 1.97 3rd 1.37 4th 1 5th 0.82
The standard 1ste gear is 3.65, Can the engine handle a 2.48 as first gear? I must say i do use a 3.8 diff ratio.
Ford Taunus Going RS2300 16v with 48s!!!
its only a change of first gear and IMHO a waste of time on a competition car.
your engine will cope with a 2.48 diff, my mild fast road pinto is fine with a 2.4 1st and a taller 3.54 diff
A std Rs2000 has a first gear of about 3.5 to 1 with a 3.54 diff that gives an overall ratio from the engien to the back wheels of 12.39 to 1
For rallying use an overall first gear ratio of 11 to 1 is pretty much ideal, any lower than 10.75 to 1 and your engine will die off the line and not perform well no matter how much bhp you have.
With a 2.48 first gear you need a diff ratio of at least 4.375 and at least 4.63 with a 2.4 first gear, this is all with 13" wheels, a 15" wheel will need a 16% higher diff ratio because of the larger radius and more grip.
Regards
Jason
Last edited by RWD fords rule; 08-08-2009 at 10:28.
hi there does anyone know if a standard 4 speed crossflow bellhousing will fit on a type 9 box or will i have 2 buy the rs bellhousing ie alloy one cheers
Standard xflow boxes have integral bellhousings so no its either the rs alloy one or the standard sierra cast one
I have never seen a post which indicates the differences in type 9 shaft length, so thought i would add these
Pinto type 9 (short input shaft)
2.8 type 9 (longer input shaft)
can someone else correct me if im wrong
Cheers
Screaming 1300 mexico rep
Is the only difference the length of the input shaft. Can the longer 2.8i shaft be machined on a lathe to shorten it to thesame as the 2.0 lenght shaft. Otherwise is there any other gearbox that has the short input shaft that can be interchanged with the long type 9 one
Regards
Tom
there is apparently a difference that mean you cant just swap the input shafts from a 2.0 into a 2.8. i think its because the ratios are different and the gears on the input shaft have different numbers of teeth.
yes you can machine the input shaft down to match the 2.0 one, people have done this with an angle grinder but with a lathe you can get it nice and tidy. i had mine done when i had the box rebuilt, they have to machine a bit of the splined section which id imagine is tricky with an angle grinder to do a neat job. but its not like its a complex job with the right tools
http://escort.accelerator.org
1968 MK1 Escort 1300GT
1969 'Big Wing' MK1 Escort
1972 MK3 Cortina 1600XL
1984 Sierra XR4i
And other junk I don't like to talk about!
Thganks for the answers. That gives me more options as I think I can get a 2.8 box. Also the better ratios of the 2.8 box should make it a better job all round
Also the 2.8 gearbox has a stub shaft instead of the full length layshaft in the pics above, it uses a larger roller bearing in the front end of the bottom gear cluster, for this reson the 2.8 gearbox can take a lot more bhp than any other type 9.
The stub shaft sticks out past the bellhousing surface, it has 3 bolts to secure it and the bellhousing has got to have a recess to accomidate this, do an image search for 2.8 type 9 gearbox on google and I am sure you will find a picture of this.
Regards
Jason
cracking thred m8, i`m currently putting a type 9 in my anglia van and it`s helped me a treat....is the clutch arm specific to the alloy bellhousing or is there another arm that can be used from another car, cheers davy
Quick question - I want to swap the type 9 with a better condition one; I am using an alloy b/h in a std shell - will I need to drop the engine crossmember down or is it easy enough to do without doing this?
"TEA! FIVE SUGARS."
You will need to drop the engine xmember about 40 - 50mm ( 2" ) to get your box out unless the shell has been modded with a large hammer!
Stevie.
Hi all
Im sure that many have been and surely more to be troubled about the issue how to get the gearstick apart for short shifter modifications. Just got mine to bits today and since i havnt got a camera at the moment i draw a picture:
In the picture its straight, bcuz it was easier to draw.
I can also make a drawing of the flange its self if anyone wants, made one my self and seems a good fit.
Not sure about the thickness, will try with 10 mm thickness at first. I'll let ya'll know when i get it finished and functioning.
Hope it helps anyone.
Laur
2x 82' Capri
I've been indulging myself yesterday in the T9 4x4
As I'm using a 2.3 crank in the turbo'd 4i,I didn't realise the crank at the rear will be smaller than a 2.8 crank. So I'm having to take out the input shaft,to have the diameter reduced from 19mm to 12.7mm apparently. But I've been struggling to get the gear selector shaft out,having removed the roll-pins. Recommendations appreciated
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