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Thread: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

  1. #1
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    bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    this is a power plot from my racecar engine, i cant find the best one which is 465bhp but this one is close to it.

    the engine is an S14 16v m3 evo2 215bhp std, with bmw 2002 con rods, accralite 2.9V6 turbo ford pistons, 7.7cr 2.5m3 crank giving 2415cc. turbo technics hybrid T38/3 rs 500 sierra race intercooler (the huge one) breathing through std bmw 48mm throttle bodies fitted with 750ccmin injectors, apart from the pistons crank and rods the engine is pretty much std internally, and is all homebrewed.

    this is my first attempt at this engine and a very promising start, i will need to do more development, inparticular to find why it gives best power on 16psi boost, more boost gives less power, even thought the intercooler can hold ithe intake temp down to a sensable 30'c
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lastscan.jpg‎  

    Last edited by Graham; 22-05-2006 at 21:20.

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Jesus Graham

    That is awesome. Didn't know you was pushin that sort of power. I've always thought about 350bhp ish - don't know why

    Thats excellent mate
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Well impressive!
    If power drops off over 16psi, could it not be exhaust backpressure forcing the wastegate open?
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    it will make and hold much more than 16psi boost, it just gives less power.

    so what i plan on doing is drilling and tapping the exhaust manifold so backpressure can be tested, if the pressure in the exhaust manifold is getting close to the inlet then the exhaust compressor is getting restritive and needs to go bigger. i can also check the exhaust system in the same way, although thats 3 inch to mid point of the car where it splits to 2x3 inch so i dont think thats the problem.

    if it turns out neither the exhaust or exhaust compressor are holding it back then it most likely needs either bigger exhaust valves or more cam

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    What lambda readings are you getting at over 16psi?
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    mixtures fine, cant remember what it is but its not a problem, the dyno has full data logging on all the engine managment parameters so were sure its not being underfueled. fueling on boost is looked after by the ecu it adjusts the base map to suit boost pressure that its reading from the map sensor. its got enough fueling capacity in terms of flow from pumps rail and injectors for 600bhp its currently running at about 78% injector duartion
    Last edited by Graham; 24-05-2006 at 08:58.

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    I was wondering if it had ended up being to rich?
    I saw an overboosted MR2 with loads of bits on that made a bit less power than standard, and that was mainly due to it having a lambda of about 0.6. After some electronic witchcraft to get lambda up to about 0.9, it made loads more power.
    I'm guessing yours was mapped a lot better than the MR2 was though!
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    0.6 my god! thats rich, its 11.5 actually

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    The manifold backpressure could be a big issue, the turbo F1 cars of the 80's made as much power as they did becuase the backpressure in the manifold was lower than the intake pressure. Then again thats at 90psi boost!

    When does the turbo spool up?
    What size are the exhaust valves and ports?
    What exhaust manifold does it have?

    Power can only be a function of whats going in and out, mabe 16psi is the limit for evacuating the exhaust?

    J

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Nah, lambda values are different measurement to air/fuel. 1.0 lambda is stoich - 14.7:1. 0.6 corresponds to about 9:1. Still bloody rich though!
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_lizard
    Nah, lambda values are different measurement to air/fuel. 1.0 lambda is stoich - 14.7:1. 0.6 corresponds to about 9:1. Still bloody rich though!
    yeah see what your saying Mr lizard.

    anyway mines still 11.5 which is normal Big power turbo rich, they have to run rich to keep things from melting, and lessens the chance of missfires which also tend to melt things, but adding more boost doesn't make it richer so its not over fuelling that is capping the power, my gut feeling is that it needs bigger exhaust valves after all they are still std size and are trying to cope with well over double std amount of exhaust flow

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Sounds the most likely thing, the MR2 was slightly too rich throughout the range, then when it got to about 6000 it just dumped fuel in.
    What sort of cam have you got in it, or is the spec top secret?
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    cams are std ones which are the equilant of most fast road jobbies

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Graham does the engine make more power at lower revs when the boost is raised, (at lower revs it wont have reached the flow limit)
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    yes it does, we backed off the boost at lower revs to make it drivable, on the the basis that it was breaking loose on the rollers with 300kg of additional weight in the boot and still breaking loose and smoking the tyres so i figured it would never grip the tarmac, so we backed it off until it would grip the rollers, it worked too its just got enough grip on track to cope with the midrange
    Last edited by Graham; 25-05-2006 at 09:41.

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Have you found out why yet mate? I saw your RR coverage in this months PPC mag. Sounds like you had a decent result at your last race !!!

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    thanks

    no i havn't sorted it yet, to be honest i have more than enough power at the moment the car will run at the sharp end of the grid if not the very front, i'm just working out how to find more, at the moment i out horsepower the rest of my class by a big margin and a good few of the guys in the anything goes class above, i'm trying to work out how to get more for next year, to give me a shot at running at the very front amounst the serious horsepower and big money engined cars, all on a shoestring!

    once i've done the backpressure testing ( which i probably wont get the time to do until teh end of season) i should know if its the exhaust itself or turbo exhaust compressor thats holding it back, if its neither of them as i already know its not the inlet compressor, intercooler or charge temp it only leaves valves and cams, i suspect bigger ones of either will do the trick, as the valves are already as big as the biggest YB cossy ones i might have to look into a cam swap

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Run at the front Graham.... you can do that allready .. you just gotta stay of that brake pedal ...

    For whats really a new car your doing great, few more fixes to keep the oil in and you'll be cracking on i reckon..

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    cheers gary,

    might need some more power though if DW ever gets on the grid :tumblewee

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    I've told him to stay at the back for the first 10 signitures... then he can let it rip.

    Gonna try and slot the engine in one long weekend

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr
    cheers gary,

    might need some more power though if DW ever gets on the grid :tumblewee
    You wont need more power to pass me Graham, thats what blue flags are for



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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Graham,

    Thats awesome power mate, well done

    I'd say from personal experiance you'll be needing a bigger hot side to run any more. I've personally gone from a T3 (46mm) to a 67mm hotside and it's sorted my backpressure issues a treat. No restrictions and a added sound that can only be obtained from a large turbo!

    We have similar engine sizes in the same car although I'm running 6 cylinders to your four but ony 12v's to your 16!

    What are your wheel sizes? and how do you control your boost? Internal or external? Boost controller? I have a million questions but will go easy on you to start

    Thanks, Mark.
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by 325i Turbo
    Graham,
    What are your wheel sizes? and how do you control your boost? Internal or external? Boost controller? I have a million questions but will go easy on you to start

    Thanks, Mark.
    my wheels are 8x15 front and 9x17 rear.

    boost is controlled via an amal valve controlled via an emerald ecu

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by 325i Turbo
    Graham,

    Thats awesome power mate, well done

    I'd say from personal experiance you'll be needing a bigger hot side to run any more. I've personally gone from a T3 (46mm) to a 67mm hotside and it's sorted my backpressure issues a treat. No restrictions and a added sound that can only be obtained from a large turbo!

    Thanks, Mark.
    what effect did that have on how the boost came in, in particular was it noticably more laggy and higher in the rev range

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr
    what effect did that have on how the boost came in, in particular was it noticably more laggy and higher in the rev range
    Yes, it moved the spool from 1800 rpms to 3000 rpms and I don't get full boost till nearly 4000 rpms now.

    But...off boost is very good and I do get 2 psi @ 3k rising to full boost by 4k.

    Fitting the Tial external gate has also changed the charateristics off the spool up too, holds much better than the internal gate did and stays shut till it should before fully opening on boost, I fitted an external screamer pipe too which has to be the loudest part on the car! ( apart from the dump valve when I was running 20psi )

    Do you have an external email addy? I have lots of photos and plenty of info to share, even another s14 turbo that lives local to me, he ended up with 300bhp @ 10 psi.

    Thanks, Mark.
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    not sure where my motor could first make full boost as we kept knocking the boost back to try and find some grip, but i've got 2psi at 2k, at the moment its quite easy to drive, as its almost always on the boil, dont really want to go back to

    a wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, OH MY GOD big bang, as on circuit that will be slower than the current set up.

    i'll pm you an email

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr
    a wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, OH MY GOD big bang!!
    LOL, thats how it is for me although I've learned to drop a gear to get the revs up, with GT series garrett I had boost up to 7 psi @ 1800 rpms but I wouldn't go back now

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Quote Originally Posted by 325i Turbo View Post
    I have lots of photos and plenty of info to share, even another s14 turbo that lives local to me, he ended up with 300bhp @ 10 psi.

    Thanks, Mark.
    ....and here is the dyno results from that very car. The car was built by a friend of mine, Martin, and mapped by me/him.

    (Or it will be here when i can get home as access to photobucket is prevented at work)

    Unfortunatly he managed to barrel role it a couple of time whilst putting in some times at bruntingthorpe. We were running much higher octane fuel on that day that allowed us to run a touch more boost and make an estimated 325bhp. We had previously run into detonation at 10 psi and the ign figures were already heading for high EGT territory.

    Car was running a 9.6:1 CR (thicker HG) and stock bottom end. I think the S14 is an amazing engine.

    After sourcing a new E21 shell Martin has recently re built the engine with evo sized forge pistons to take the CR to 7.8:1.

    He is hoping for 400 bhp.

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    RR chart as promised.


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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Engine is a normal 2300cc 195 bhp S14 (not evo).

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Sounds nice guys, you got me foaming at the mouth. Your M3 was the Blue one featured in PBMW mag a few months back? I saw the feature, nice car. I got an E21 2.3 6pot turbo, not sure about power, haven't RR'd her yet. Are you planning on putting the S14 into an E21? Where did you source the new E21 shell from and how much dd it cost? Cheers.
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Any Turbo'd BMW's from here going to Gaydon this Sunday?
    Kam
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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    here the lastest power plot, ignore the big bumps low down, that was dave realising he was in the wrong gear and changing it

    Last edited by Graham; 17-03-2008 at 22:48.

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Bloody hell Graham thats awesome

    She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    Excellent result Graham, and not too much boost either

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    Re: bmw e30 m3 turbo 4pot

    That is a mad engine graham, beats the hell out of a cossie Yb, I didn't realise the 4 pot m3 engine was so good with forced induction, its a pity those engines are so rare and expensive.
    Very nice power curve, where did you find the extra power?
    Near 500bhp now, are you running std head and valves?

    Excellent build!

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