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Thread: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

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    Spanner Monkey

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    Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    has any1 converted a mk2 escort to Independant rear suspension like colin mc rae or phil colins cars using serria cosworth diff ?
    where would u get hubs to suit th serria drives in a mk2 escort and what whay to design and build it

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Ask Colin why he is selling his car... its a waste of time and effort putting serra taxi suspension on a competition car... the Sierra is designed for 5 bums and their luggage... not competition .

    Isle of Mull Rally ... live axled escorts beat plenty of WRC cars every year, proof is in the winning... even a 1600cc live axled 105E beats the WRC cars .

    Why do WRC cars have Independant Rears... they are built like that in the factory, and the rules say you must use the original suspension design... even if its crap.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Fiat showed that a properly sorted rear independent suspension was superior to a live axle with their 131 Abarth. The Escorts couldn't touch it on tarmac and that was mostly due to superior handling as the Escorts had more powerful engines.
    Marku Allen the man who drove both cars confirmed this.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    IRS is better but it much harder to get right.
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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    My personal slant on this... As Clint said, ultimately, the IRS is better - but in order to get it to work properly and beat the live axle, you will need to put some serious design work and then R&D into it. The thing is, as far as I know, no-one has successfully designed/installed an IRS which "works" better than a live axle (in an escort i mean). It will be done sooner or later, I suspect Phil Collins new car will see to that. (That man was faster in his live axle car than McRae in his IRS car, with identical engines...) SO give him a little while to iron out any problems, then ask Phil which is better...

    Yes, the sierra back end was a bit naff to say to least. As soon as the rules allowed it (the introduction of the WRC rules in about 97?) then Ford stuck McPherson struts in the back of the Escort Cosworth as they couldn;t get away with the original setup.

    So to sum up; grafting a sierra rear end into an escort is probably a waste of time, and won't be a benefit. But with the right budget and facilities, the IRS will win in the end... Don't expect it to work "out of the box" though.

    I wouldn't worry about where you are going to get driveshafts and hubs made! They are the least of your worries, a long way down the list of problems if you're going to try designing a full IRS!

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    yep... ok may not have made myself clear last night .. the Sierra stuff is crap, but a properly designed IRS is better, and the best being upper and lower wishbones.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    What about grafting on the rear end from a cossie diff'd kit car lke a Dax. This gives you a double wishbone setup straight away.
    Would have to cut a lot out of the escort though

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    I had thought something like this might work without too much cutting

    Mark3/4 eccort front struts including brakes etc converted to collovers so they might fit in the normal round escort rear towers. Sierra or any other diff mountedto the rear using some type of frame. The frame could also be used for mounting the track control arms from the Mark 3 escort (longer track control arm would be better) Fabricate tensoin struts from the tcas to the mounting points for the leaf springs. Drive shafts would have to be custom made with the outside using escort universal joint matched to whatever diff you use. I have never really measured anything so I do not know if any of this will work.

    Regards

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Hello

    Somthing like this picture?

    Greetz from holland


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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    even with those length arms you will get camber change through bump and droop.

    The only way to control camber is using upper and lower wishbones

    But like i've said ... on forrest and gravel camber changes are not that much of a problem as the ground is rarely flat... circuit and road stuff is.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    one of the easiest IRS rear ends to graft on to a car must be the bmw e30 rear end, it only has three mountings.

    would it improve a escort? yes under certain conditions i think it would, but for most applications i doubt it and to be honest considering all the work involved to fit it i'm sure the same effort in other areas of the car would reap more benifits.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Hello

    Can you please tell me what type of bmw you can use.
    The local bmw dealer gave me some data sheets but as far as i can see they seem not usefull.
    Greetz

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Hello Mk2 Cosworth,

    Do you have any more information on the car in the photos above. How did it work when used on the road?

    Regards

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by MK2 Cosworth
    Hello

    Can you please tell me what type of bmw you can use.
    The local bmw dealer gave me some data sheets but as far as i can see they seem not usefull.
    Greetz
    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr
    one of the easiest IRS rear ends to graft on to a car must be the bmw e30 rear end, it only has three mountings.
    e30 is the model, or put it another way 3 series like the one in my advatar, 325 is best to go for it has strongest diff and drive shafts and rear disc brakes, which have enough room in the flange for redrilling to ford pcd if required

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2


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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Hello Group4 -mark2

    This suspension belongs to a Mk 1 Rally escort and what i have heard about it is that it handels pretty well.

    Greetz

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Hello,

    Do you have any more photos of the car or details of the setup i.e. toe in, camber etc.

    I think that the setup in the photograph could be very effective and not too expensive. Also it does not require much cutting of the car so it would be easy to return to a standard setup if necessary.

    Regards
    Tom

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by MK2 Cosworth View Post
    Hello

    Somthing like this picture?

    Greetz from holland

    As can be seen in that pic .. the wheels are on full droop, now with the car on the floor and say using a small droop, bump ratio of 2 inches of bump 3 of droop that diff is going to be very close to the floor. Also the the arms should be pointing slightly down when at ride height so you get some neg camber in roll, with the bottom drawings geometry as the car rolls through a corner, the outside wheel gains neg camber and the inside goes posi.. thus keeping the tyres flat on the floor. The downside .. under accel / decel the wheels will lose the contact patch as the wheels go into negitive and positive camber respectively


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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    I agree with you about the links having to be pointing down when sitting on the ground at normal ride height. Is the loss of contact patch under acceleration and decelleration such a big issue especially with very long links on a tarmac rally car. This may notbe such an issue since there will be a big decrease in unsprung weight and the wheel should stay on the ground much better. Also from from what I can see the escort suffers most from loss of traction when going around a bend and this type of independant suspension would work very well under these conditions. Where would the roll centre be with such a configuration and what effect would this have on the handling?

    Regards

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    The BMW E30 rear axle set up is equally crap as the Ford is. If going for an axle that is tried and tested and adjustable go for an Mercedes Benz 190E 2,3 16V rear axle and drop in an E500 diff which is supposed to bolt straight in.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    I'm fitting irs to my mk1 escort - using locost kitcar wishbones, i'm not really doing it for any handling improvement as its only a road car, i just fancied doing it for the hell of it and cos a sierra LSD is quite cheep

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by Transit RS View Post
    I'm fitting irs to my mk1 escort - using locost kitcar wishbones, i'm not really doing it for any handling improvement as its only a road car, i just fancied doing it for the hell of it and cos a sierra LSD is quite cheep
    Get some pics up, sounds interesting popcorn:

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    i started this along time ago igree serria is crap now cossie diff spin the 1 wheel al the time and thats no good
    what way would you mount the strut eg facing forward to the front of the car or to the back or on the centre line?
    would u lean the turret inwards to the centre of the car

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by david_white View Post
    Get some pics up, sounds interesting popcorn:
    ive not got any pics of it yet but i'll put some up when i have some, ive mothballed it for a while needed the space to do my transit. but once thats done i'll be back on with it.
    it's also got sierra front suspention pas etc. and option for 4wd and the engine is rover turbo -fitted and running but not driving yet
    but heres a little pic of the front it's been on the road like this with a pinto in.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    This exact topic is something i am very interested in...
    currently i have diabolical leaf springs
    I know 4-link would be much better, BUT....
    i don't want to cut the car about for a 4-link because....
    i hope and pray that one day there will be a better solution available
    prferably that will bolt up using some of the original suspension points..
    i would be quite willing to pay top money for such a kit, as i believe other people would given the money now being spent on these old cars
    also although i believe the 4-link fixes the axle well, on my car it seems the huge mass of the atlas is too much compared to the light mass of the rear of the car

    as an intermediate thought what about this....
    De Dion beam same width as baby atlas.. (probably could be sourced from kitcar world)
    side to side location by standardish panhard rod or watts linkage...
    and located by '4-links' from original leaf front mounts and anti tramp body brackets
    Sierra cos 7.5" or xr4x4 7" lsd mounted to floor...
    shortened sierra driveshafts
    coilover spring/dampers in original spec turrets

    this would surely give same suspension geometry as 4 linked atlas but much much smaller unsprung weight
    and none or minimal floorpan mods

    any comments on my idea? cheers

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Thats just what i'm doing
    Go here http://http://gtslocost.locostsites....leAssembly.pdf
    These are the plans for a De dion Axle. Build it to the Escort width use the front spring mount and tramp bar mount as the 4 links. Then add a panard or watts link. My shell is turreted so will be coilovered. Then a Sierra or Nissan 200sx type diff mounted to the floor. As soon as the car is off the road for winter i'm starting on it.

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    ClassicFord Magazine Summer 2010 & March 2012 feature car.3.0 V6, Capri 2.8i Suspension, 16" Revolutions

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by robrs2 View Post
    Thats just what i'm doing
    Go here http://http://gtslocost.locostsites....leAssembly.pdf
    These are the plans for a De dion Axle. Build it to the Escort width use the front spring mount and tramp bar mount as the 4 links. Then add a panard or watts link. My shell is turreted so will be coilovered. Then a Sierra or Nissan 200sx type diff mounted to the floor. As soon as the car is off the road for winter i'm starting on it.
    Awesome. hope you will be doing a thread for us...
    can the de dion tubes in the link be made ready bought or do you have to make them from plans
    what about fixing the diff to the floor, will you use a frame that fixes to the original mk2 escort damper mounting holes as well as a rear mount on the diff?
    how about narrowing the shafts? gonna diy that?

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Have a look here M8

    http://www.gtscougar.freeserve.co.uk/dedion.htm

    As for the shafts, most people just cut them in half shorten and sleeve - then weld them up
    ClassicFord Magazine Summer 2010 & March 2012 feature car.3.0 V6, Capri 2.8i Suspension, 16" Revolutions

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by ludsonline View Post
    Have a look here M8

    http://www.gtscougar.freeserve.co.uk/dedion.htm

    As for the shafts, most people just cut them in half shorten and sleeve - then weld them up
    Cool, thanks
    I just e-mailed the Darren off that page to see what he says

    I have welded and sleeved driveshafts on a pinto powered car before, do you think it would handle cossie power though?
    been offered a scorpio cosworth lsd+ beam/shafts etc for £40 so i may buy that

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2


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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Whats the advantage of a de dion though?
    It may have less unsprung weight as the diff is attached to the floor but it seams to have disadvantages of both live axle and a sierra independant setup
    I'm all for something different but I would like someone to explain why this setup beats a live 3 link with a panhard (no floor mods)

    Good topic though popcorn:

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Quote Originally Posted by scrote View Post
    Cool, thanks
    I just e-mailed the Darren off that page to see what he says

    I have welded and sleeved driveshafts on a pinto powered car before, do you think it would handle cossie power though?
    been offered a scorpio cosworth lsd+ beam/shafts etc for £40 so i may buy that
    I have a link for some custom ones somewhere, will try and find it
    ClassicFord Magazine Summer 2010 & March 2012 feature car.3.0 V6, Capri 2.8i Suspension, 16" Revolutions

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    From what I can see it will give you the same geometry as a live axle but as the unsprung weight is less you will get better suspension control over rough surfaces (most uk roads ). Not sure if it would make much difference on a race track though. The only disadvantage it would carry over from the Sierra would be that the rear diff isn't as strong as an Atlas, although its stronger than an English and LSD's are cheaper

    Just have to wait for the suspension king to answer now

    She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    I would say a rebuilt cossie diff would be plenty good enough with my 195 tyres, although a 9" diff is available for cossies at 2 or 3 grand.
    or a welded diff would swap in easy for drifting days
    yet another advantage is that abs sensors should be useable for abs/traction control

    Yes come on Gary what's the verdict...

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    All i will say is ... the Caterfield boys all swapped De-Dions into their cars... and promptly swapped them back out again.....

    Ok I'll say some more...

    Its a pretty fixed thing, ie non adjustable, and also.. is it Light? .. methinks that its not that light.

    Also, what are the aims of putting one under the car ?

    For a race live axle we have :

    The ability to dial in anti squat or squat
    Consistent Camber and toe settings
    A known diff and cwp strength
    The ability to dial in roll steer to add toe in to the outside loaded wheel
    The ability to have variable rear roll center height.
    Its legal in the rules
    And in the future watch out for light weight race versions of the Atlas

    For the De-Dion
    May be a few pound lighter

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Ok the boss has spoken
    although personally i think it would amount to more than just a few pounds


    Quote Originally Posted by Retromotorsport View Post
    And in the future watch out for light weight race versions of the Atlas
    what do you know?
    alloy pigsnose like they do for english? or would it have to be alloy everything as the tubes are attached to it?
    how soon is the future?

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    I dunno how far away it is... been a few designs drawn.. ideas bashed around .. but nothing costed or produced yet

    It would be good if someome could weight the De-Dion.. with the hubs and everything .. No Diff and 1 driveshaft just so we can compare the un-sprung weight

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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    I know Elite Transmissions have been working on a lightweight replacement for a while now, an alloy diff unit/housing that can be used as either a independant unit as in sierra type IRS or with tubes and shafts to make a live axle. popcorn:
    customcarbon.co.uk

    Remember, at the end of every straight, there's a corner......

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    Way too much free time Decade Plus User Retromotorsport's Avatar
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    Re: Independant rear suspension on a MK2

    Yeah you seen the price of it Steve... shocking

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