Ok chaps, interested in peoples views on what type of oil is favored in use. From pretty mildly tuned to full out race engine, what oil do you use?
Appreciate your comments as well as a vote!
Fully Synthetic
Part Synthetic
Mineral based
Ok chaps, interested in peoples views on what type of oil is favored in use. From pretty mildly tuned to full out race engine, what oil do you use?
Appreciate your comments as well as a vote!
A decent 20/50W mineral oil for all pintos, standard to race
She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro
I run 15/40 in mine, mineral or semi synth.
I use the time-honoured "whatever's laying around" oil selection process.
Duckhams 20/50 Mineral. (The Green stuff)
Cheers. Rick.
I'll stick with 20w/50 Valvoline thanks. The Pinto doesn't like these synthetic or thinner grades of oil. I've tried the GTX2 and GTX3, Pennzoil etc and the engine rattled like blazes! So back I went to Valvoline and have had no trouble since.
Synthetic isn't any thinner unless you buy a thinner grade.
20w/50 should be the same viscocity at the same temp from oil to oil, otherwise ratings would be meaningless.
I've never run a Pinto but all competition engines I've had anything to do with have been run on fully synthetic esther based oils - that includes a very elderly rover V8!
Originally Posted by boombang
as we all know pintos have something of a tendancy to wear cams, to protect the cam you need a nice thick sticky oil which will stay stuck to the cam in a nice thick layer untill fresh oil gets there when oil pump finally starts sparying oil through the spray bar when you start it it, thats the problem with modern synthetic oils in a pinto lays, yes they do stick, but NOT in a lovely thick layer that the pinto needs.
many years ago the man form kendal oil pointed out the excellent low temperature cling rates of their "normal" 20/50, he must of been fairly right, in 15years of building and supplying many many pintos, cams etc, my mate never had a single cam failure where the customer was using a normal but quality mineral 20/50, 80% of the customers used kendal most rest used valvolene or old fashoned duckhams or castrol
as a pinto will run happily in all states of tune on old cheap and chearfull 20/50 mineral oil, i cant see why anyone would want to put expensive stuff in it, especially as its likely to wear the cam faster
Last edited by Graham; 06-09-2006 at 13:13.
I use fully synthetic in mine, but there again I'm using roller rockers so I dont have the wear problems associated with std type pinto cams
Graham, any problem using this grade of oil (20/50) with a pinto turbo?
please use valvoline racing 20/50 in your pinto's whether there standard , race tuned or turbo charged . Pinto rocker gear only wears out fast if the rocker geometry is out or there's a blocked spray bar
gotta be carefull using racing oil in road engines as it usually needs changing way more often and isnt suited for stop start road driving, if its their new VR1 racing oil "for street use" your talking about, according to their blurb its formulated for "new car use" so dunno if its recomended for old engine designs?please use valvoline racing 20/50 in your pinto's whether there standard , race tuned or turbo charged . Pinto rocker gear only wears out fast if the rocker geometry is out or there's a blocked spray bar
As I said above it honestly shouldn't matter (so long as its good quality oil) one 20w/50 to another, whether mineral or fully synthetic. The "weight" is measured at set temperatures so that oils are comparable.
i.e. the shear strength of the oil should be identical comparing a mineral to a synth when brand new and the same temperature.
Its worth bearing in mind that a lot of semi-synth and full-synth aren't actually synthetic. All it needs is a small percentage of "synthetic" in the blend and they can put that lovely misleading sticker on.
And on the basis that a hydocracked mineral oil can be called synthetic its pretty pointless.
What you honestly want is an oil made with a proper synthetic base sure as Esther. Silkolene do some good oils which aren't OTT on price (Pro-S for example). What this means is that the base oil won't break down as rapidly as mineral or hydrocracked mineral, therefore the oil maintains its ratings longer, will "stick" better, and also will be able to hold the detergents in suspension and keep the engine cleaner.
Synthetic oil being too thin is one of the biggest falicies in the motoring world!
For those who have experienced rattling on part-synth or synth oils it is likely to be that either the oil was poor quality and broke down, the far more effectively detergent qualities of the oil cleaned out sludge which was keeping things quiet, or just that the oil was the wrong weight.
not in my opinion, but do bare in mind the heat turbos produce means that if your also going to use an ordinary mineral oil it will need very regular changing, and it becomes all the more important to let the engine idle and the turbo to cool off before shutting down
you just hit the nail on the head!
most modern oils are far thinner than the types oil oil x/flows/ pintos etc were designed around, lots old engines ran big bearing clearances, some will suffer modern thin oils other wont.
also the main benifit from many modern oils is that they are such a high spec they will give a very long service life, something like castrol SLX as used by bmw and VW can be left in an engine for 20,000 plus miles, whats the point in using such a high spec oil if its going to be changed every few 1000 miles like most turbosporters will.
i did countless seasons of racing reving my old 8v 40year old designed 2002 engine past 8K using cheap and cheerfull duckhams Q and never suffered an oil related problem,
although oils like Duckhams Q valolene etc might be a low spec oil by todays stds, 20+ years ago it wasn't! and if they were good enough then for pintos and 9,000 rpm lus x/flows then they are good enough today
valvoline racing 20/50 can be used in turbo's with no problems , i use it in all my turbo engines and it's great . It's cheap too at less than £20 for 5 litres ( £15 if you go to a good motor factors ) . It's called 'racing' but it's not anything fancy just good oil at a good price .
I thought that full synthetic oil needed to be changed every 5000 k's because it starts to blacken after 3000k's depending on the oil.
Normal Mineral oil starts to blacken arounf 5 - 7 000k's and is good up to 20,000k's (you only need to change the oil at a service because you change the filter. If you keep filter and change the oil it is not worth the change or vice verser..so change both).
Fully Synthetic oil is only suppose to be better because it passes easier through filters and doesn't clog spray bars as much while in its good working state. beyond that it actually starts breaking down, where as mineral oil does not break down. Synthetic breaks down and the components that make synthetic seperate.
synthetic is only good if you change your oil every 5000 K's, dont warm ya car up in the morning (as it is suppose to heat up quicker). have a turbo/supercharger, or running high compression.
Other than that if ya drive in traffic, warm ya car up every morning, change oils at 10,000k's with filter 20w/50 in summer is good, 15w/40 is good for winter (mineral oil)
Hmmm I think I am going to have a few re-buttles here.
As you can see there are heaps of different oil combinations being run in this thread, but who is actually right?
Probably not me!
but I think 15W/40 mineral oil for smaller older engines is the GO! it will probably help ya oil pump out in the long run... if ya got a 6 or 8 cyclinder definatley go for the 20W/50.
If ya engine has never been pulled apart or recon'd use 20W/50 no matter what the engine as it will be harder to pass through gaskets and seals. where as if you have new rings, smooth bores and new gaskets go the 15W/40...just because you can.
so i suppose it is how fresh ya engine is as well.
There is a rule race engines (uncle told me because he used to race rx2 and escorts) You change your oil before a race (qualify, testing, practice), then before you go out to race you drain that oil and put in fresh stuff (dont bother changing your oil filter if ya changed it before qualify). He reckons this will keep ya engine in a fresh state of tune and you will always be consistant with you power out put.
(he used to run a dry sump).
oh man am I gonna get my fair share of Replies...LOL!
Peace out!
Last edited by MK1 CAS; 07-09-2006 at 06:17.
hmm thats rather excessive unless your doing the 24hr le mans!
dont forget this thread is supposed to be pinto specific, and they never made any 6 cylinder ones!
now theres a thought who's goin to be first to weld two together
Fully synthetic only needs to be changed after significantly MORE work than mineral oil.
There is no way on earth I would run mineral oil for more than 6k or so.
The next bit I can't even get my head around - the synthetic breaking down, not heating up and needing more compression etc.
Pure and simple this is how it is:
Oil works by the sitting in layers that "shear" off each other. The higher the viscocity, the higher force needed to shear each "layer" off. This means that a thicker oil should coat a surface better and cling better (although the "cling" is very dependant on cleanliness).
When you reach the limit of that oil and it starts to break down. When it breaks down the additives fall out of suspension, the oil loses lubricating properties, the shear factor drops right down and you end up with a runny mess, possibly with clumps in.
Early "synthetic" oils and the current crop of shit "synthetic" or "semi" are prone to breaking down very seriously once the limit is reached - Magnetec is a prime example of this (great marketing but ever seen it once its overheated?) and IMHO GTX is the better oil!
With Magnetec its probably down to the additives they use which clump together when the oil has been taken past its limit.
HOWEVER mineral oil will still have a lower limit and will always be suited to those engines that run cooler or have a less harsh duty cycle (lower revs, less extremeties of temperature).
The reason for poor performance in a lot of cases of the "semi-sythetics" is as I said previously its a hydrocracked mineral base rather than a genuine synthetic oil - again a great marketing ploy. Once these oils have gone past their limit they are useless.
A genuine synthetic oil (again to repeat myself Esther base for example) will have far superior performance. They are very temperature stable, long lasting, maintain additives in suspension, and have very high limits before begin to break down - some oils will take regular temps of 130-140 degrees (not continuous - besides a continuous 140 degrees shows a serious lack of oil cooling!).
In a modern high revving engine that is ideal but it doesn't rule out use in older engines.
I was quoted above about the wrong weight of oil but that post didn't make sense to me. A 10w-40 is a 10w-40 no matter whether its mineral or synthetic, a 20w-50 is a 20w-50 etc etc!!!!
When you say too thin that means the wrong grade/weight of oil has been put in, not that you have used a synthetic instead of mineral as for each given grade of oil the viscosity is the same!
People talk about putting in a sythetic or part synth for the first time and then hearing rattling noises - as I said before this is one of a few things:
1. The engine was being "dampened" by the old mineral oil and the additives have cleaned the engine out giving play in components - this doesn't mean that the old oil was better but means the engine is knackered. The wear is caused by the lack of overall lubrication in the mineral oil and potentially would have been avoided if good synthetic was used from the start (although I understand it potentiallyt wasn't available!)
2. The wrong grade has been used. As said above 10W-40 won't suit an old Pinto unless freshly built.
3. A "synthetic" oil has been used and limits exceeded. Basically the oil was crap.
I totally agree that in a lot of cases you are best off with old spec mineral oil. It has the damping factor (i.e. goes a bit sludgy and doesn't over-clean the engine) that is required where tollerances are out.
However (and last however I will use in this post) if it was a fresh build with correct tollerances, you could use a fully synthetic or a mineral of the same grade - e.g. 20w-50 - and you would be significantly better off with the sythetic.
As a side-note:
If your uncle used to run a dry sump there will be something like 8-10 litres of oil there. Only reason I could see for this is the engine was running say forged pistons (clearances/end gap are in region of 1.4-1.7 times greater for piston rings than regular), which in turn means rings do not seal as well from cold. Perhaps the bore wash from doing the qualifying, testing, practise, idling in the pits etc knackered the oil, losing lubricating qualities.
Just noticed too that I've done it again. Another rambling post - not meant to be a rant though so sorry if it sounds like it!
Last edited by boombang; 07-09-2006 at 09:32.
Can I just say that I expected a few comments from peeps as I was outlining some stuff I have heard over the years.
I am not saying I am right or an expert (this is a discussion after all), but "boombang" i quote you above.
I am abit confused myself, you say "you can't get your head around" that line, but you go and agree with everything I said in your ..Hmmm lets call it... an article.
I am not taking the mickey out of you, I really do like a good conversation as i may learn something from it.
I ask a tonne of Questions on this forum and appreciate good honest answers.
But I am totally confused as to how you don't understand me, but then go into greater detail than me and agree with it all.
Escort lovers we give a rats arse who has the faster Escort, we are just grateful for seeing another one on the road.
Sorry I mustn't have been very clear.
"Synthetic breaks down and the components that make synthetic seperate.
synthetic is only good if you change your oil every 5000 K's, dont warm ya car up in the morning (as it is suppose to heat up quicker). have a turbo/supercharger, or running high compression."
This was the bit I didn't get but re-reading makes sense.
The first bit is true but all oil breaks down and seperates - just how far and what rate depends on the makeup of the oil and as a general rule mineral oil will break down far quicker in terms of the shearing factor lowering.
The second bit isn't correct at all (in my opinion) but synthetic is more important in those situations - i.e. better lubricating properties from cold, better in turbo-applications as degrades less under heat.
I seem to have read it totally differently the first time so sorry for that - it does make sense
Having raised this topic originally and being very much a 'lay' person when it comes to these matters, it is clear that despite some definate differences in opinion there is some consensus.
To sumarise, due to cam wear with 'thin' oil, 20w/50 mineral oil of a high quality should be the oil used as defualt in pinto's running any state of tune either n/a or blown! However, if the pinto is a recent re-build with much closer tollerances, it is acceptable practice to move to a less viscous oil say 15/40.
The bits I am unsure on are;Thanks in advance!
- When would I need to use semi of full synthetic in place of mineral (these have clearly been developed for a reason and one would like to think that this is based on progress?)
- So, is it better to run mineral in all cases?
- Frequency of oil changes - assuming a good quality mineral oil and a reasonably hard service environment (lets face it we all don't poodle around with these engines)
- Does anyone have any recommendations regarding 'flushing' products?
- Oil filter preference OEM or other quality alternatives
Sorry - one more question:
6. Can you get 20w/50 as a fully synthetic oil?
Assuming you can, is this not the best of all worlds?
1. Everytime IMHO, apart from possibly a regular road car - so long as the base stock is a good quality synthetic. Remembering of course that 20w/50 is still 20w/50 wether mineral or other - its like 20cm is the same length when measured whether a ruler is wooden or plastic.
2. Not at all. I would only run mineral in an old engine i.e. not rebuilt recently.
3. 6k at the max. If you run a higher spec engine with forged components significantly shorter. Ditto if its a track or race car. With a decent mineral still being cheap (e.g. Silkolube 20w/50 at £18 or so for 5 litres) there is no excuse not to change regularily - every few trackdays or every race meet if required - unfortunately there is no simple way to check aside from if it smells like fuel.
4. Unneccessary IMHO - all oils contain detergents already so if getting dirty and sludgy you need to choose a different oil and/or service intervals.
5. Being a Peugeot man I use Purflex OEM type for my cars as it retains the non-return valve to keep the system part charged for starting.
6. Silkolene Pro-R and Mobil 1 are available in 15w/50, Amsoil do a fully synth 20W/50 but its very expensive, although if you were to insist on 20w/50 and had a £10k race engine the costs would be negligable!
I'd be interested to see what replies you get from this guy (may be Simon or his colleague) - its a form regarding oil recommendations depending on your spec.
http://www.opieoils.co.uk/performanc...mmend_oil.aspx
Last edited by boombang; 07-09-2006 at 12:05.
All the fastest pintos in the land use valvoline racing 20/50 at £18ish for 5 litres , you don't need to take a chance with anything else so don't risk it . It's your engine though so use what you like just don't get it wrong !!!...........
Where do I source it from?All the fastest pintos in the land use valvoline racing 20/50 at £18ish for 5 litres , you don't need to take a chance with anything else so don't risk it . It's your engine though so use what you like just don't get it wrong !!!
Local motor factors have no idea!
Get mine from here
Thanks!Get mine from here
Pricey on the postage though - anyone know where i can get it in Bedfordshire?
Have a look at http://www.valvolineuk.com/index.html
There is a page to find dealers.
David
Castrol GTX is the recommended oil for Pinto's
read any guide and you will they recommend Castrol GTX.
Why?...because it is Mineral.
Another thing with changing oils: most people do damage to their engines when they change oil,
1: your engine is supposed to run for a few mintues then switched off and left for another few minutes as the oil drains back down. You are not supposed to change your oil when it is dead stone cold.
2: inspect the sump plug rubber washer, if it is torn up get a new one.
3: clean around the sump plug with a wire brush, extremely well (before you remove the sump plug). This is probably the cause of most dirt getting into sumps and damaging lines and bores.
4: Get a manual, get two if you have to and read both and you will see even for brand new motors they all say 20W/50, in my reply up top i said go for 15W/40 or synthetic if ya engine is new, just because you can. Not because it does any better of a job.
5: as stated in the manual, it says change your oil every 10,000km's not 6,000km's (but changing your oil earlier is better).
(as stated above if you have a car that is well tuned and got the bells and whistles then I say look beyond the mineral oil, but don't use a synthetic oil because you believe it is going to give you extra power or help out with wear and tear).
And those engine oil flush things just take oil away from your gaskets and seals which is not a good thing in an old engine. stay away from them.
This thread has been very informative! as ive been having problems with my pinto, i now know why. magnatec not doin a good job.
Sorry to hi-jack this thread but i have a oil related Q
I am about to put my new head on it has new followers and the cam is Brand new. would running a mineral oil 20/50 (castrol for arguement sake) be the go??
Thanks don
ps luv u TS
put plenty of cam lube onto the top end parts before you start the engine up . Then make sure the engine revs don't drop below 3000ish rpm for 20 mins once it's started for the first time . Do not let it idle or the cam can be ruined . Your 20/50 mineral oil will be fine . i hope this helps .
cheers for that. thanx!
My apologies for this thread revival. I have been running Redline 15W 50 ester based synthetic in my turbo pinto on E85 (300whp 20psi) and had the oil tested at 1500km which passed and waiting back for lab results at 4500km. If the oil is still good I will do my oil change intervals every 5000km. There has been much debate about ester based oils breaking down from use with E85 fuel so these tests will provide peace of mind. This is a worthwhile bump since engines, fuels and oils have come a way since 2006. I will update in the next day or two regarding the results. IMO if there's no break down of the oil it makes sense to use Redline with a turbocharged engine because it offers superior protection at high temperatures
Test results at 5000km are good! E85 and ester based synthetic, no problems
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