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Thread: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

  1. #41
    Pit Crew Decade Plus User TepiTheFinn's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i would choose 36/36DCD instead of 32/36DGV. I had very good experiences with DCD.
    in the past with my mk2 Escort i tested the same 2.0 pinto engine with 36DCD (28chokes) and twin 45DRLA's (36chokes) both properly jetted.
    both setups gave the same quarter mile results (14.6s/100mph), DRLA's gave better throttle response, better idling, a bit more low end torque, but nothing to the top end (max7500 rpm).
    dcd has no choke butterflies, and it's with removable chokes, jets can be changed without opening the carb
    Cheers, Tepi

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i agree, the 36/36 would be a good carb choice but they are very rare here in the uk

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Tepi I want to keep the 32/36 as a learning curve. I don't want to rush things and then not gain any knowledge from the process.
    I am all for changing carby's but I want to only change a carby once I know I cannot get any more power from it for what ever setup I have at the time.

    So by pulling apart a readily available carby like a 32/36 I dont mind if I break an emulsion tube because I just go and buy another 2 minutes drive away.

    Plus the 32/36 looks dead easy to mod when you look at manual diagrams.

    Graham I will go ahead and purchase two new main jets, a 140 and a 145 (just incase I wish to go down in size).
    I am going to get the 180 air corrector jet.
    thanks

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    36/36 has advanges in no choke flaps and removable chokes, but one drawback for every day use, it doesnt contain a power valve, which means jetting it rich for normal running so it does not go lean under full power mode

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr View Post
    the 145 sec air is very small, you would not normally have an air corrector smaller than the main jet,

    i would be starting out by changing the primary main to a 145 and secondary air to a 180
    My 2 cents: the original 32/36 DGAV 3D1 carb for the RS2 has 2 F66 emulsion tubes. The standard setting of the aircorrector jets is 170 primary and 125 secondary. The "nature" of the F66 is that it needs a smaller aircorrector jet for the secondary otherwise it leans out at the topend.
    If like graham b suggests, the carb has been played with do not trust that the size mentioned on the jet is the correct size as it could have been bore out.

    Also remember that in the bottom of the float chamber there is a "full power needle valve" which opens when there is almost no vacuum in the inlet. This sometimes upsets jetting.

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    Bodger

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    miniliteman I found that a standard 2 litre escort came with F50 or F55 emulsion tubes ( I may be wrong but thats what I found) and I think most of them had 140/140 (pri and Sec mains) 160/150 (pri and sec air)
    which leads me to believe grahams assumptions for me to go to a 145 pri main (to match with the 150 sec) and a 180 sec air will give you about the same ammount of percentage increase on the stock numbers.

    well done graham.
    I have ordered my parts btw. I just ordered a 145 and 180 air.

    I was thinking of running this combination:
    (the major dif here is the air jets are swapped because all jetting charts I found had a smaller secondary air jet).
    (the 150 gets changed to primary position and the purchase of a 155 for the sec main).

    I suppose I am going to have to purchase a few jets and play around with the combo. I just feel that after doing a bit of reading that often going to high in the air corrector jets can leadt to a motor running rather hot. therefore you have to switch to a smaller air corector in the secondary barrel.

    so this is what my guestimates have brought me and where I think I would like to be.
    which is not far off grahams set up for my carb but I think his set up will bring more power due to air/fuel mixture it may result in a leaner motor therefore hotter.
    I think this will give slightly better power but also remain safe.
    time will tell.

    Air: (pri - 180) (sec - 175)
    Main: (Pri - 150) (sec - 155)
    Last edited by MK1 CAS; 16-10-2006 at 06:48.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    go for it cas ,

    dont get too paniciy over air corrector sizes the difference between 175 and 180 is small, you also have to bear in mind how well the engine breaths and revs on, if your engine reved on to 7000+ the air corrector size would be more significant

    with a stock cam and its not going to pull loads of revs at the top end, so i would expect a jet combination which leans a bit at the top end

    your engine will only run hot if significantly lean, max power always comes with a slightly rich mixture

    provided you think about it and work in logical steps and only make one jet change at a time once its up and running on the motor you should get there and learn a lot in the process, as i said a few posts ago, jetting is a mixture of science and black art, once you start remembering what worked or needed changing for other similar specs if you have a feel for it you start to be able to guestimate quite accuratly, ask mr jimbo, his carbs were re jetting and choked by a rolling road who obviously didnt have a clue, cos the got it all wrong, the car was slower ( god knows how they managed that ) my telephone jetting service worked wonders for him, yet i'd never had to jet his particular engine spec.

    but the final step should always ( but frequently never is) be a decent rolling road.

    good luck i'd be interested to see how you get on
    Last edited by Graham; 16-10-2006 at 07:31.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36


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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I second Graham,let us know how it went!

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I will definately keep you guys posted

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    First post woo-hoo.

    Can you tell me where I can get one of those stub stacks from?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    What were the findings mk1 Cas? I'm about to select some jets for my modded dgav.




    Roman, try making a stack with some modelling clay in the form of Fimo (oven baked with the carb top at 130Cels), thats what I've done, will be testing it soon!

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Has anyone completed the modifications on the 32/36 carb as per the instructions on this thread.

    Regards
    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i have but cant give you any figures to back it up other than to say the car was a fair bit faster when i swapped a 38dgas for a modded 32/36

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I use a highly modded 32/36 on my 4G63 mitsubishi 2.0 engine. the chokes were maxed out. auxilaries knife edged. flaps removed, stubs homemade with epoxy resin, original weber top hat for a cold air intake, and some healthy jetting to get that fuel delivered. car is much more responsive, all those hours with the hand files and sandpaper was worth it!
    Regards,
    Kevin

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Hi,
    Have you any photos of the epoxy stubs as I am thinking of making some for my 32/36

    Regards
    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Sorry mate; i had to remove my moulded stack when i put the weber 'hat' on my 32/36. There wasnt enough clearance on the inside for the 'hat' to seat properly.
    Mind you its not hard to do; get some JB's Weld it sets slowly giving you time to work/mould it, and holds out in that gasoline environment. It sets overnight. just shape it with a generous radius; and make sure you clean the surface up first with some sandpaper for the jB's to 'bed in'.
    But here are some pics including a blow thru setup an a friends car.
    You can see my efforts with the auxillaries; and may be able to see the enlarged throats. Note the before and after comparison. Also thats the cold air intake.




    Regards,
    Kevin

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Thanks for the photos it is worth a thousand words. I will post some as I make progress which is very slow as usual.

    Regards
    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    What is the tin foil for?

    If anyone is interested I have a 32/36 that has never had any butterflies fitted - there aren't any holes for them to go through. God knows what it must have been off
    weird piece of kit.
    I'm going to pull your head off because i don't like your head!

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Its not tin foil.....Its heat insulation wrap as used by aircondition techs.
    Regards,
    Kevin

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    Spanner Monkey Roman's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by Red78Ghia View Post
    Roman, try making a stack with some modelling clay in the form of Fimo (oven baked with the carb top at 130Cels), thats what I've done, will be testing it soon!
    Red

    Did you test these and did you find any difference?

    Did you get any pictures?

    Cheers
    Westfield 1600 x-flow SEi
    www.combidrive.co.uk

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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    This is a very interesting thread, makes good reading.

    I ported out the chokes of a 38 dgas carb to 30mm. (standard is 26 or 27mm can't remember which)
    Ran it on a 2.1 pinto fast road engine.
    I don't have any bhp figures but throttle response was very good and this mod has to be almost as good as fitting twin 40's.

    I got the idea from david vizards excellent pinto book.

    He described a number of modifications he done to a standard 32/36 dgav.

    Here are the flow bench results at 25" H20


    Measured at 3" of mercury (which is the same pressure drop as 2 and 4 barrel american crabs) it flowed 288cfm in standard form and 336cfm fully modified.

    After all the modifications his carb flowed almost as much air as a 350 two barrel !!!



    Here are some pics of my 38 dgas




    I used a die grinder and a flapwheel to bore out the chokes easily and carefully.
    I took a little off at a time evenly, the whole way around and used a 29mm washer on a bolt as a gauge.
    It took about 5 mins to bore bowth chokes out carefully.



    I am going to narrow the venturies now that I have seen that mod on here.

    You can get 140bhp out of a re jetted std 32/36 on a fast road 2.0 pinto and about 150bhp with a std 38 dgas so a modified dgas must be fit for at least 160bhp.

    The chokes are extremely restrictive on a std dgas,
    think of a 38mm butterfly restricted down to 26 or 27mm !! total crap for bhp, but when you bore the chokes out to 30 or 31mm it realy opens up the carbs breathing ability.
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 23-10-2007 at 18:37.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    One further modification which is worth trying and may improve low rpm performance is knife edging the auxiliary venturi (booster in the USA) to improve the vacuum which the main jet sees by between 10 and 20% .



    A very good article describing this can be seen here

    http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tec...ification.html

    Another suggested change in this article is to change the booster to a stepped design which improves the atomization of the fuel.

    Regards
    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    good mod boring chokes oversize will tend to loose some low down power from around 1/4b to 1/3 throttle as the vacuum signal to the mains will be reduced this should help mask that.

    i'm going to make this thread a sticky so it doesnt get lost

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    another worth while mod if you can still get the parts is to replace the throttle plate screws with weber DCD ones after countersinking the holes in the throttle spindles


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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    slightly off topic but porting the inlet manifold to increase the radius where the manifold runners meet so the mixture has less of a sharp turn after leaving the carb pays good dividends

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Good point about the screws, they do tend to stick out into the airflow.

    I am not sure if this will have any effect but I think that I read somewhere that adding an extra spacer between the carb and manifold gives some improvement.

    How much do you think porting the manifold is worth and where exactly do you add the radius for the best effect?

    Regards
    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    adding spacers does give an improvement, some times the improvement comes because it give the air more time to turn the corner after it leaves the carb,

    but mainly it comes because it makes the carb appear bigger as far as the engine is concerned, although it doesnt seem like it, an engine on a single carb is still sucking air in in pulses we can use this to create a slight supercharging effect by having a store of air under the carb ready for when the next valve opens, even when modified the carb cannot supply all the air the engine wants which leaves a greater vacuum in the manifold inbetween the engines induction strokes the vacuum will continue to fill the manifold with air, when the next induction stroke occurs the engine will consume the additional air stored in the manifold as well as what it can draw through the carb hense the engine behaves as if it has a slightly bigger carb than it really has.

    i remember one engine when vizard was really going for it on a single carb engine he also made the manifold branches longer by cutting the manifold and welding tubes into the port runners to make them longer, again it adds to the manifold volume and with teh runners may of even imparted a bit of ram tuning

    as for porting the manifold, this should give you the right idea.




    if your really going for it you would build up the base of the manifold in the middle of the plenum to mirror the new shape of the runners this would reduce charge robbing from one cylinder to another
    Last edited by Graham; 27-10-2007 at 10:01.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I had to read the last statement a few times to understand what you were saying. By building up the base of the plenum you almost have four individual runners straight from the carb and each one does not effect the others so much. Interesting!

    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    you got it it wouldnt be practical to build the base up to such an extent that you could isolate the the runners but you could certainly reduce the effect they have on each other, charge robbing as its called can be a real issue with the A series engine with its siamesed ports, one cylinder nicks so much mixture from its neighbour that the second cylinder actually runs lean, hense scatter pattern cams for that engine, in most engines your not going to rob the charge to anything like that extent, but if theres an air fuel mixture already in a manifold branch ready to go in the cylinder you really dont want to suck out out again

    i suppose i should of done a second pic like below to make clearer

    Last edited by Graham; 27-10-2007 at 12:20.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    evellent thread!! glad its a sticky as im just about to start with a 32/36 on a 1300 x'flow.....yes im sure its overkill but its not going to be standard

    the 32/36 i have i nicked off a P100 i sold years and years ago (i knew id have use of it one day)

    anyway the dome shaped cover on the side with the small buterfly, this takes the engine coolant to controll the auto choke right? as im missing the cover i may as well ditch the choke flaps yes? (or can i get an manual choke conversion)

    also like to add grinding the casting marks and shaping the edges in the manifold helps!! ive done it to the fiesta (only a 1.1) okay ive got no dyno sheets to prove anything and it doesnt give noticeable gains but its helped nock over a second off the cars time down the 1/4 from standard trim


    also grinding the aux jet arm and butterfly arms down in the 1.1 carb will help flow air? ive about given up with the 1.1 but somehow i will make a 17 second 1.1

    again great thred my service kit should be on its way so this is going to be a great help


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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    well after reading this i started imediatly, unfortunatly the screws that hold the choke flaps in sheared off, darent touch the ones that hold the throttle butterflys



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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    just about to start with a 32/36 on a 1300 x'flow.....yes im sure its overkill but its not going to be standard
    nothing wrong with a 32/36 on a 1300 x/flow, infact thats what ford fitted on 1300 sport models, although they used one with smaller 23/24 chokes, using the large choked 26/27pinto version will give a 1300 breathing potiental for well over 100bhp if you tune the engine far enough, although if your using it on a mild 1300 dont go mad with opening the chokes out or it will have really poor drivability at low speeds

    anyway the dome shaped cover on the side with the small buterfly, this takes the engine coolant to controll the auto choke right? as im missing the cover i may as well ditch the choke flaps yes? (or can i get an manual choke conversion)
    yes it carries the coolant which would normally warm the bi metalic strip that operates the choke

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    im not going to touch the chokes just file down the aux holderbits down and maybe try get some jets to play with


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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Interesting air horns for the DGV carb.




    Can be purchased from http://s2.pegasusautoracing.com/2007/048.pdf but a bit expensive at $279 and also showing as out of stock


    Another company also does them but again very expensive
    http://www.twminduction.com/AirHorn/AirHorn-FR.html


    Regards
    Tom
    Last edited by Group4_Mark2; 07-12-2007 at 13:06.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    really interesting read, i like the ide of the horns, but think ill try making my own out of clay or something. will do some more reasearch on it first.

    about the carb spacers, i think i remeber reading somewhere that you can use PTFE as material, so some old chopping boards would do .

    i also remember reading that when you fit a spacer it insulates the carb from the inlet manifold, keeping it cooler, maybe giving cooler air?

    dave

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Sam View Post
    well after reading this i started imediatly, unfortunatly the screws that hold the choke flaps in sheared off, darent touch the ones that hold the throttle butterflys
    Mr Sam,

    How did the mods to the carb work out?

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    Spanner Monkey Roman's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I have been following this thread for quite sometime and have been modifying the carb and inlet manifold ready for when the car would finally be back on the road after the engine rebuild and having the new cam fitted.

    I have done the following:

    Removed the chokes
    Filed the throttle butterfly screws
    Filed the Aux venturi arms
    Fitted an additional spacer block under the carb (raising it by about another 15mm)
    Knife edged the Aux venturi
    Ported the manifold (smoother radius on inlet and bends on outlet)





    Only taken the car out for a short run (for it's MOT), what a difference. Not sure if it is the BCF2 cam, rebuilt engine, mods to carb and inlet manifold or a combination of all 3.

    I now need some advice on what jets to run, at the moment 185 air corrector jets and 145 main jets. Do you think that these will be okay for a 1600 x-flow with BCF2 cam, std head (but modified valves), 4-2-1 exhaust, modified cam and inlet manifold, if not what do you recommend?
    Westfield 1600 x-flow SEi
    www.combidrive.co.uk

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    Bodger

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Also worth bearing in mind and not sure that its been mentioned on this thread but if you remove the automatic choke assembly on these carbs you do open up an airway into the carb and its worth blanking this off with a lead plug - I usually use an old fishing lead weight either that or epoxy.


    Cheers

    Andrew

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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by Group4_Mark2 View Post
    Interesting air horns for the DGV carb.

    I was thinking that 40 or 45mm alloy trumpets could be pressed square at the bottom in a vice while leaving the corners rounded so that it would fit nice and snug into a dgas or dgv just above the aux ventury, with a slot to clear the pump jet and a small bracket to bolt them down.
    You could fit a short trumpet feeding cylinders 1 & 4 and fit a longer trumpet for cylinders 2 & 3, this would help make the intake lengths closer to equal length.

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