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Thread: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

  1. #81
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    You could fit a short trumpet feeding cylinders 1 & 4 and fit a longer trumpet for cylinders 2 & 3, this would help make the intake lengths closer to equal length.
    inmteresting idea but as a pinto manifold is a single plane or common plenum manifold that wouldnt actually work.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36



    So with a manifold like this...you could use different lenght trumpets?? what are the benefits of equal inlet lenght?
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    most aspects of modifying the 32/36 have been covered in this thread but could someone describe the correct procedure to knife edge the butterflys. both edges to a point or one side of the butterfly????

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    normally its done by taking both edges to a point

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by SidewaysMk1 View Post


    So with a manifold like this...you could use different lenght trumpets?? what are the benefits of equal inlet lenght?
    you could but i cant see why you would want to, unless the manifold design is causing radically different pulses in the two sets of inlet tracts, even then cam profile would have a huge effect, on a mild cam it would probably be a total waste of effort

    but dyno testing would be the only way to find out

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Does anyone know if the 38 dgas be bored out and given better flow characteristics in the same way as the 32/36? (bore out chokes and fit countersunk screws etc)

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    yep pretty much everything in this thread about a 32/36 also applies to a 38dgas so go for it

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    okay that sounds good! so could a 38 be made flow close to a pair of 40's?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by scooby_hugh View Post
    Does anyone know if the 38 dgas be bored out and given better flow characteristics in the same way as the 32/36? (bore out chokes and fit countersunk screws etc)

    See my thread http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=134609 I have done most of what you have listed except boring it out.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    does anyone know much about these ivey prepped webers as used in formula fords, i've heard they got some sort dump tubes come from the float chamber into the throats, and they disable the power valve, can't seem to find much on them at all through google though

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    the power valve is easy to disable you just blank it iff, although i cant see why you would want to, having the power valve means the carb can be jetted leaner but still give max power when required, giving you better economy, drivability and less bore wash

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    http://thelolaregistry.com/DIY/Weber.htm

    probably the only info i could find, seems the dump tubes must work similar to the power valve at high rpm probably dumps alot more fuel in is what looks like there aiming for

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    36/32 with most of the mods

    No choke butterfly
    Bored both chokes to 30+mm
    Reduced Aux vent leg and knife edge
    Knife edge Butterfly
    Reduced shafts and countersunk screwed (threadlocked)
    Removed casting flash and smooth air intake







    Andy

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Put it all together and fitted the DGAV to the car today in place of the Modded 38 DGAS. The only change I made to the jetting is the fitting of a couple of 145 mains to replace the 130 and 135 jets that were in it.

    There are no stumbling issues on part throttle as with the DGAS it just pulls nice and clean and when the secondary opens up it's a nice kick in the pants.

    The DGAS may have the outright edge but not by much and loses out significantly in drivability over a modded DGAV. There even seems to be better torque produced on the single choke which is probably down to the better mixture.

    So for those looking for a cheap performance upgrade following the tips in this thread coupled with boring the chokes out really makes a significant difference

    Andrew

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Hi,
    I am a bit of a tail end charlie here, but, for wot its worth if you bore ANY chokes on ANY carbs and do not reproduce exactly the correct areodynamic profile you will NEVER NEVER NEVER (I mean never) get the best out of the size choke you have bored.Fact!!!! For example, I must of thrown away hunderds of chokes from so called tuners and fitted real chokes of exactly the same size and picked up literally dozens of HP+Torque. The moral of the story here is big is NOT better unless it is correctly done. The profile of an aircraft wing (which is what you are trying to reproduce but in reverse) is F-----G CRITICAL!!!!! Trust me I fly all over the world and I'm still alive. (just) It is strange to me how no one has mentioned this in this thread as there are some real clever people on this forum. Maybe I missed it, sorry.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i'm suprised it worked well on the primary, as i would of thought there wouldn't be much of a venturi affect going from 32mm to a 30 choke, good stuff anyways, what the spec of the engine, as i've done all the things in this thread only going to a 28 / 29 choke and i'm upto 185 pri 195 sec main jets as it just kept going lean on 150 160 etc, but i suspect i've got an air leak as it's got a fluctuating idle i haven't been able to fix, pulls well though to 7k

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I am also very surprised how well the car drives on the primary - everything I have read in the past says do not go less than 6mm difference between the butterfly and the choke size so maximum on the 32 is 26mm (stock) and 30mm on the 36 - But as Vizard said 30 and 31 in the SOHC book that was good enough to try 2x30 - thing is the old 28/36 DCD used to run a 26mm choke size in the 28 !

    I also bored out the Aux venturi in the 32 to 4.0mm from 3.5 and took a bit of care getting the knife edges on it really sharp

    As for the profile question in the previous post - I think most people are aware of the importance of the correct profile for the venturi - in an ideal world you have the tools to recreate the profile - but to be honest this is just a quick cheap and dirty way to get some extra power, no-one said it was perfect - but there is also no question that it works.

    The spec on my engine is a 2.0L with stock unmodified EFI head - Ashley 4 branch and system, FR32 cam - opened up inlet manifold at the carb and isolator area. KN filter. Difference over the carb when it was unmodified is massive.

    DGAS now destined for e-bay

    Andrew

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Now that we are all clear on the choke butterflies, aux- and main vents. Maybe it's time to move on. I have some thoughts about fitting larger throttle butterflies. It would be quite easy to manufacture new plates. Slots in the shaft can be extended to fit bigger plates. I really do not know how much could the barrel be bored out, before braking into anything. Aside the machining process, i'm more interested how the engine will respond. Since we already have a bigger main venturi and overall flow rate, bigger throttle plates should add some balance.

    Maybe someone could shed some light, is it beneficial/possible or total waste of time?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by I.K.Engineering View Post
    Hi,
    I am a bit of a tail end charlie here, but, for wot its worth if you bore ANY chokes on ANY carbs and do not reproduce exactly the correct areodynamic profile you will NEVER NEVER NEVER (I mean never) get the best out of the size choke you have bored.Fact!!!! For example, I must of thrown away hunderds of chokes from so called tuners and fitted real chokes of exactly the same size and picked up literally dozens of HP+Torque. The moral of the story here is big is NOT better unless it is correctly done. The profile of an aircraft wing (which is what you are trying to reproduce but in reverse) is F-----G CRITICAL!!!!! Trust me I fly all over the world and I'm still alive. (just) It is strange to me how no one has mentioned this in this thread as there are some real clever people on this forum. Maybe I missed it, sorry.
    Very true, when I bored out the chokes in my dgas I was very careful to get a nice entry shape into the chokes, otherwise airflow would have been poor.
    I have bored out weber sidedraft chokes from std 36mm to 38mm without any trouble.
    I carefully re shape the chokes after boring so that they flow well, I have seen several carbs that had the chokes bored out by someone and they never re-shaped the chokes after boring, this leaves a bad choke shape and an almost sharp edge, very bad for airflow.

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    The sidedraught carbs are easy enough to bore out the chokes if you have a lathe. Set up the head stock with the correct angle and open them out slowly. This preserves the "Aircraft shape" on the inside of the choke. The DGAV carb is more difficult as either a custom tool has to be made or it can be bored out using a die grinder but is difficult to keep the proper angles.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    In my opinion the best way to do it is to bore all the chokes out the exact same size in a lathe and then use a die grinder with a 60 or 80 grit flapwheel to get a really good shape with the lathe spinning at about 800rpm, it goes without saying, be very careful you don't slip and injure yourself.

    You could grind the choke profile into a large piece of tool steel so that you get the exact same shape as the factory chokes but every choke size will have a different shape so you would need a lot of them.

    Personally i think nothing can beat a skilled worker with some basic tools and a good knoledge of how things actually work.

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    As you can see there is very little material around the butterfly to carry out any worthwhile increase in diameter - and you may well break open the progression gallery as well IMHO you would be better off starting with a bigger carb.

    With all this work the law of diminishing returns rears it head and it becomes far more economical to stick some bike carbs on the engine.

    I have found that the 38 DGAS offers not a lot of improvement on the 32/36 when fitted with the same 30/30 venturi sizes so thats the extent of any development on this carb for me.

    When I get my flowbench up and running i will drop them both on and take some numbers but that is not going to happen for a good few months







    Quote Originally Posted by Klamber View Post
    Now that we are all clear on the choke butterflies, aux- and main vents. Maybe it's time to move on. I have some thoughts about fitting larger throttle butterflies. It would be quite easy to manufacture new plates. Slots in the shaft can be extended to fit bigger plates. I really do not know how much could the barrel be bored out, before braking into anything. Aside the machining process, i'm more interested how the engine will respond. Since we already have a bigger main venturi and overall flow rate, bigger throttle plates should add some balance.

    Maybe someone could shed some light, is it beneficial/possible or total waste of time?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    For a fast road engine it might be a good idea to use a 38 dgas carb with a throttle mechanism from a 32/36 carb whihc would open the throttles progressively instead of simultaniously.

    You could leave the primary choke the std 27mm diameter and bore out the secondary choke to 30 or 31mm, thus giving you good fuel econemy when driving normally and when you floor it the secondary choke opens up and you have all the top end power you want.

    This would be good for about 150bhp+

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Good idea on the 39DGAS, It is the best of both worlds, economy and power. With some of the other mods mentioned earlier in the thread especially knife edging the aux venturi I would think that throttle response could also be improved on.

    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Just to add a little more info here, in terms of fuel flow per min for a given bhp level.


    As a good guide,

    2 litres per min = enough fuel flow for 200bhp

    1.5 litres per min = 150bhp

    1.4 litres per min = 140bhp

    Aim for slightly more fuel flow than you need to give a bit of a safety margin.

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Would running the progressive setup on the DGAS give more torque when only using the primary? due to higher gas speeds through a single choke?
    Ford allways tended to fit single choke carbs to comercial engines i thought that was why

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by bortaf View Post
    Would running the progressive setup on the DGAS give more torque when only using the primary? due to higher gas speeds through a single choke?
    Ford allways tended to fit single choke carbs to comercial engines i thought that was why
    Yes you are correct, it would give a smoother torque curve, also the throttle is more progressive, opening slowly until the second choke opens quite fast.
    The slow opening of the primary barrel makes the engine much smoother when driving on the road.

    The progressive throttle also gives more fuel econemy due to the increased air speed going past the primary choke until the secondary opens up.

    The std dgas throttle mechanism would drink fuel and be hard to drive at normal road speeds.

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Could any of the panel suggest a good starting point for jetting this carb for a lightly breathed on ( sorry don't know the cam ) 1600 kent engine?

    Cheers,

    Steve

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Hi Cas

    New on her and due to my background was drawn to your thread.............

    Remove the choke flaps and the whole of the auto choke unit. I can supply you with our newly patented WEBER Sync Linkage the jets you need. etc let em know... The sync link coming off the machine next month.

    Made from single billit of EN24T, beautiful............ and the proberly the best avalable in the world?

    http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/p...IONLINKAGE.jpg

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Been looking at all this wow you guys are so intense in getting the best stuff,

    So why not fit the unsung hero yet voted one of the top 10 carbs ever produced.....

    The Weber DCD, has a small primary for low speed driving and giving economy, then a MASSIVE secondary choke for get up and go, the added bonus is that you can cahnge the vent sizes in the both the primary & secondary. These were know as the poor mans DCOE, as they have a cold start device, working on the same principle as the DCOE and NO choke flaps..........RESULT THEN!!!

    If you take the time to measure the deiplacement of air of a DCOE 30mm choke, 27 mm DCD and 27 mm DGAV (fixed) Using the dcoe as 100% the dgav is last with 62% and the DCD is way up at about 87% form memory.

    Thats why they don't let the racing buddies use them as the are so adjustable, just liek, the DCOE....

    Pete UKCARBS ukcarb-specialist@live.com

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by UKCARBS View Post
    I can supply you with our newly patented WEBER Sync Linkage the jets you need. etc let em know... The sync link coming off the machine next month.

    Made from single billit of EN24T, beautiful............ and the proberly the best avalable in the world?

    http://i427.photobucket.com/albums/p...IONLINKAGE.jpg
    Correct me if I am wrong, it looks like that linkage opens the butterflies simultaniously or very close to it, the std dgv linkage looks better to me, opening one butterfly almost fully before the second opens.
    What is the advantage of using your linkage in a fast road car?

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Attemp to sound clever about to fail!!

    Does that linkage give a progresive rate of 2nd choke opening as opposed to a linier rate the gear meshed DGAS type normaly gives?

    If that answer makes no sense ignor it, no good asking me what i ment

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Looks like it would be somewhere between the two types - looks like it could have a smooth progression rather than 2/3rd 1 and the last 1/3rd both.

    Certainly be interesting to test out on a 38 DGAS.

    Andrew

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Yeah on second thoughts it does look like it would work somewhere in between the two std linkages.

    In my opinion for a fast road car I don't think you will get any better than the std dgav linkage that opens the primary throttle 2/3rd's before the secondary starts to open, this would give the best all round performance.

    Fuel econemy at part throttle driving would be the best by far with the std dgav linkage.

    The custom linkage above could possibly work better than the std dgav on a race track due to the secondary opening more progressively instead of the sudden opening of the std linkage which in certain conditions could cause the tyres to break traction, it might be easier to drive on track but who knows for sure without testing.

    Personally on my fast road pinto engine I am going to use a modified 38 dgas with 31mm chokes and the std throttle linkage out of a 32/36 dgav, it looks like I only have to swop the secondary throttle spindles over, bolt on the linkage and do a few small mods to fit.

    I will post some pics of the 38 dgas with dgav linkage fitted when I get around to finnishing it.

    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspeed View Post
    Also worth bearing in mind and not sure that its been mentioned on this thread but if you remove the automatic choke assembly on these carbs you do open up an airway into the carb and its worth blanking this off with a lead plug - I usually use an old fishing lead weight either that or epoxy.


    Cheers

    Andrew
    Any pics Cheers

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by r2vdh View Post
    Any pics Cheers
    Will see what I can do - In the mean time off the top of my head there are three screws holding the water htr assy on the carb one of the screw holes has another hole right next to it and normally has a small o-ring sat in it - thats the one. It acts to pull the chokes slightly open as soon as the engine runs and creates vacuum.

    Andrew

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkspeed View Post
    Will see what I can do - In the mean time off the top of my head there are three screws holding the water htr assy on the carb one of the screw holes has another hole right next to it and normally has a small o-ring sat in it - thats the one. It acts to pull the chokes slightly open as soon as the engine runs and creates vacuum.

    Andrew
    Yep you are spot on, 3 bolts and a small hole sealed with an O ring.

    It is best to make up a small flat plate to cover off the hole using the std O ring to seal it up.

    Personally I wouldn't remove the choke mechanism because you have to keep a rev on the engine until it warms up, revving a cold engine wears the crap out of it because when the oil is cold it is very thick and you don't get adequate oil supply to the bearings etc.

    Jason
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 01-04-2009 at 20:01.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I always thought the primary jet was always bigger than the secondary. I currently have 132 Primary and 127 secondary and she goes ok. Apart from a flat spot occassionally when accelerating.

    Rod

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    normallly the secondary jet is bigger because the primary has smaller throttle and choke meaning a higher airspeed through that barrel but less maximum airflow, but you can get combinations of air corrector and emulsion tube that make it the other way round

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Graham,

    Do you know what the pump plug screw is for? And where should it be? As in should it be tightened down all the way or released up till it is flush with the carbi housing. THe pump plug is the small screw on the corner of the bowl next to the accelerator pump linkage thing.
    Reason I ask is that I have cleaned the carbi thoroughly and rekitted it. I also took out the choke butterflies off. HOwever the carbi seems to have a massive flat spot and lacks power. I am thinking it may be this stupid screw or perhaps the jets are not in the correct order as in the air correction jets and the primary and secondary jets.
    THe escort had a Weber 34ADF off a ford falcon and it went hard. People tell me the 32/36 will make it go better, but am still yet to see it. ITs only a road pinto and should not require anything huge.
    Thanks in advance.

    Rod

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