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Thread: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

  1. #121
    Bodger

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by UKCARBS View Post
    Been looking at all this wow you guys are so intense in getting the best stuff,

    So why not fit the unsung hero yet voted one of the top 10 carbs ever produced.....

    The Weber DCD, has a small primary for low speed driving and giving economy, then a MASSIVE secondary choke for get up and go, the added bonus is that you can cahnge the vent sizes in the both the primary & secondary. These were know as the poor mans DCOE, as they have a cold start device, working on the same principle as the DCOE and NO choke flaps..........RESULT THEN!!!

    If you take the time to measure the deiplacement of air of a DCOE 30mm choke, 27 mm DCD and 27 mm DGAV (fixed) Using the dcoe as 100% the dgav is last with 62% and the DCD is way up at about 87% form memory.

    Thats why they don't let the racing buddies use them as the are so adjustable, just liek, the DCOE....

    Pete UKCARBS ukcarb-specialist@live.com


    Hi all, My first post on the forums. Currently building a mk3 cortina wagon in Australia. Using a mild 2000 and about to tackle the carb. Was going to rebuild the DGAV but some more info on the DCD would be good as i know of one for sale.

    Is the bolt parttern the same as DGAV?
    What size chokes would be good for a mild 2000?
    Any general info would be great as there doesnt seem to much about them on here.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    yes the DCD bolt pattern is the same

    for a 2000 pinto use 26 and either 27 or 28mm chokes

  3. #123
    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Interesting video of how carbs and venturies work


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p95ZNM24A5wYouTube - SI engine carburetor.



    Jason

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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    For people who prefer the DGAS throttle linkage here is a very cheap throttle linkage for the 32/36 DGAV, $45 for the kit below.

    Opens the throttles more or less simultaneously.






    http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/


    Jason
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 15-05-2009 at 10:06.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36


  6. #126
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I've been inspired by this thread to have a go at these mods myself

    I've done most of the mods to the carb already, apart from boring it out - which is the next job.
    Most of my time of late has been spent porting and modding the inlet manifold, here are some pics of what I've come up with.

    Opinions and comments are welcome!
    Here you can see the pent shape I've moulded on the floor of the manifold, it's shaped from JB weld


    More views of the modded manifold floor, plus the reshaping done to the top edge




    Finally the ports were opened up to match the head, the manifold has been drilled to accept roll pins so that it mates to the head exactly
    Last edited by exboyracer; 15-05-2009 at 16:51.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    if you have enought height under the bonnet i would add a spacer under the carb insulator, lifting the carb will make it effectively bigger plus you can open out the hole at the top of the manifold and use the spacer to taper things back to the size of the carb

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  9. #128
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    The DCD sold for too much so im back to rebuilding the DGAV. So far i have stripped it, cleaned, filed the aux jets and knife edged the butterflys. Will need a rebuild kit to put it back together when the time comes. After a quick look around on ebay etc i have noticed that there are alot of different versions. some with more parts than others. What are the most common parts that need replacing? I see some 'major' rebuild kits come with power valve etc, do these commonly need replacing or how can i tell if mine does or not?

    Aaron

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I've never had to replace the power valve, I've never had any problems with it either

    On a slightly different topic, I ordered one of these the oter day


    Had an interesting chat with the owner, he runs a race car with an essex V6 which is restricted my the race regs to running the original carb, a 38DGAS, ableit heavily modified.
    He's managed to get 280-odd BHP out of it which just goes to show what can be done with a single downdraught
    He also mentioned that his carb hat netted a dyno-proven 9hp gain.
    Last edited by exboyracer; 20-05-2009 at 23:38.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Do you have it in your hands yet?
    Was it same price as in the posted pic?
    How do they attach and do you use the normal filter?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I haven't got it yet, but apparently it mounts to the carb by the choke flap spindle.
    They are currently working on a version 2 which attaches to the air filter mounts, but it will be more expensive.

    I will update when I have it in my hands!
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    power valves themselves rarely go wrong but the diapphram that operates them does fail with age which leads to an engine that runs very rich all the time

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    awesome thread

    quick question, what do these doofers (red arrows) do??


    would it be a bad thing to chop the top off the plate down to the base for the air filter? (red dotted line) may have an idea for something...


    Offerings to the God of Speed

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    it connects to the fuel bowl so in theory it should suck fuel through at high enough rpm

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Probably...more likely... equalizes the air pressures................ to prevent.................

    carby Fuel pullover


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cim0bX5nY-EYouTube - PullOver.
    Last edited by Roger Miller; 24-05-2009 at 12:43.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I've done a bit more porting to the inlet manifold after Graham's advice, I've added three standard spacer gaskets, grinding these to gently slope into the manifold itself.
    The gaskets and manifold have been drilled to accept a roll pin to ensure alignment, unfortunately the brittle plastic cracked so they've had to be glued.












    Next up, carb mods. here is the carb stripped down before work began:






    The barrels have both been bored out from 26 and 27mm to 30mm and given a slight polish






    The throttle plates have been knife edged and the throttle spindle has been smoothed and had countersunk screws fitted






    Finally the auxiliary venturis have had their ends knife edged, the whole lot was cleaned and the carb reassembled




    This aluminium carb 'hat' has turned up, it's a bit rough so will need some attention


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  20. #137
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Ex, your carb is looking good! What did you use to bore out the chokes? What screws did you use on the butterflys?

    Anyone tried a weber ADM? they came out on some ford 4.1 inline 6s over here in Australia. Out of my workshop manual they are :

    weber 34 adm
    primary 27mm
    secondary 29mm

    main jets
    p 140
    s 210

    air
    p 170
    s 160

    emulsion
    p f66
    s f93

    idle
    p 60
    s 60

    It has a progressive linkage similar to DGV and a 2 part idle circuit.

  21. #138
    World Champion Decade Plus User exboyracer's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I don't think we ever got the Weber ADM carb over here

    I used a 30mm step drill and a pillar drill to bore the chokes out, just like this one
    http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=400016309834

    The screws are just regular M4 countersunk ones, I drilled the spindles to suit and then ground and polished the whole lot onto a smooth shape.
    Last edited by exboyracer; 25-05-2009 at 10:34.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    What is that intake you hae modified? Mine is alot different. Ford 71hf9425h8jb i think the numbers are.

    Whats the best 2 barrel intake?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I think the manifold part number is 711f 92425HC, it's the standard intake from the 1600 engine found in Mk1 mexicos, and anything else with a twin choke weber fitted from the factory - though I think from what I've read that the 1300 ones are different somehow
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Some pics of the carb hat fitted

    I had to trim back the K&N baseplate to allow it to fit over the hat


    It wasn't a simple bolt on fitment, the casting needed a bit of filing in places and the choke flap required modding too


    There is just about enough room between the top of the hat and the filter top plate, I think I'll be making a spacer to raise the filter up if I have enough under bonnet clearance
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i see you have done the single choke flap mod i used to do, it makes cold starts as easy as an unmodded carb and gives a little more power, although on a cold engine when you first drive you have to be gentle with the throttle so as not to open the second choke and end up in a huge flat spot, that said no choke flaps at all an the engines practically undrivable until you have warmed it up a bit.

    one point on knife edging butterfies, i dont like doing it on road engines because it alters the timing of the progression drillings,

    the bored chokes are ok but you really should reshape them to retain the origonal venturi shape

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    World Champion Decade Plus User exboyracer's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Thanks Graham

    I know what you mean about the butterfly plates, I'll see how it drives as is and if it's a total dog I'll fit a pair of standard ones.
    Same with the shape of the chokes, I only noticed the difference in shape when I was uploading the pics
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    by knife edging the butterfies you start the progression phase of the carb early, if its too early you can delay it by drilling a hole in the butterfly so the engine doesnt need the throttle as far open at idle and very low speed

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    exboyracer: Hi, where on earth did you find your spacer gaskets?!

    I can't find the buggers anywhere!
    Cheers boss

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    vanpegg, I had them all in stock. I did find a source for new spacers but they were something like £18 each, which is why I ended up repairing the ones I had when they cracked!
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  32. #147
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr View Post
    by knife edging the butterfies you start the progression phase of the carb early, if its too early you can delay it by drilling a hole in the butterfly so the engine doesnt need the throttle as far open at idle and very low speed
    Hi Graham, could you please elaborate a little on this?

    Just done this to my carb. looks similar to boyracers job.

    Aaron

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    OK I'm on page 3 I'm Posting this so I can find it easily...
    NICE READ!!!
    GREAT JOB GUYS!!!!

    From Pintony

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    BTW I never figured out Y there is an "Idle Jet" in the secondary throat???
    Do the carbs across the pond have this???

    From Pintony

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Yes they do, though I've no idea why
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    the second throttle still needs an idle jet to fuel that carb barell when the secondary throttle is just a fraction open, i've only found this once but i did have a car with a modified carb on it that needed a bigger secondary idle so as to cure a flat spot just as you went into the secondary

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Makes sense

    It's probably worth mentioning here that at present my modded 32/36 is effectively a moderately expensive paperweight, as the car will just not run cleanly with it fitted.
    It was a spitting, jerky, pinking horrible drive on the primary barrel. The secondary seemed OK though, plenty of power there!

    Initially I was blaming the ignition, vacuum leaks, almost anything else, but when I swapped the carb for a standard one the running problems went away.

    I'm going to pay some more attention to the aerodynamic shape of the venturi and check all the drillings and progression holes for blockage before I give up on it altogether.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    exboy,

    Do you still have the knife edged chokes fitted to the carb as that would really mess with the progression from idle.


    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by exboyracer View Post
    Makes sense

    It's probably worth mentioning here that at present my modded 32/36 is effectively a moderately expensive paperweight, as the car will just not run cleanly with it fitted.
    It was a spitting, jerky, pinking horrible drive on the primary barrel. The secondary seemed OK though, plenty of power there!

    Initially I was blaming the ignition, vacuum leaks, almost anything else, but when I swapped the carb for a standard one the running problems went away.

    I'm going to pay some more attention to the aerodynamic shape of the venturi and check all the drillings and progression holes for blockage before I give up on it altogether.

    if you've taken a couple of mm out of the choke you probably need a much bigger main on the primary barrell something more like 165-170

    marks right about the knife edging and progression, you can get round that, drill a 1mm hole through the primary butterfly near the idle drillings ( exact location is not critical , what this does is allow more air through the carb for any given amount of throttle opening ( but obviously only has an real effect at very very low speed) this hole means that the throttle plate will be further shut delaying the progression phase of the carb ( the knife edging advances it) you can go bigger still on the hole say 1.5mm, then 2mm, if you go too big just solder up the hole and drill a new smaller one nearby

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    for what its worth, im planning to use a twin choke on my geoff pinto, what i shall do is in conjuction with the head i will use on the flowbench, mod the carb for maximum flow without opening up the chokes, if the carb is still strangling airflow then open the chokes the minimum poss amount needed to not restrict the airflow through the head too much, so i get most flow poss on smallest choke poss which gives best results

    what has to be remembered in with chokes as small as in a twiinchoke opening out each choke a couple of mm is a HUGE increase in area and its easy to go too far on a road engine,

    i used to use a DCD (which has removable chokes) on my midly tuned imp, normally you would use something like 21/22 chokes, i ended up running 23/25 which gave a really strong top end with reasonable drivability, such big choke necitated HUGE mains for the engine size and poweroutput, dropping back the primary choke to 22mm, whould mean in town corners that had to be tackled in 2nd gear became 3rd gear instead,

    what you have to be carefull of though is if the difference between the choke sizes is more than a couple of mm at the most then there is a huge step i terms of power from one barrell to teh other and it can be a pig to drive

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Thanks Tom / Graham

    Regarding the knife edging of the throttle plate, I already tried drilling a 2mm hole in the primary one but it seemed to make no difference whatsoever to the idle. I'm guessing that if the jetting is so far out then that's probably not too surprising.

    The reason that I gave up on the carb so so is that I wanted to go on holiday to Ireland with the car so my tinker time was limited! When I get a chance I'll have another play with it.

    Currently it's got standard jets (140 mains, 160 airs, F50 emulsions, 50 idle) in it. I'll try 170 mains, have you got any recommendations for a starting point for the others?
    http://escort.accelerator.org
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    found the following image which helps explain the effect that the various circuits have

    http://escort.accelerator.org
    1968 MK1 Escort 1300GT
    1969 'Big Wing' MK1 Escort
    1972 MK3 Cortina 1600XL
    1984 Sierra XR4i
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Hi all, iv been reading this thread and its great!
    One thing though, if you do bore out the chokes, you havent mentioned needing to fit bigger throtle flap thingys. (feel free to point and laugh at me if im being stupid) but the way i see it is that would leave a slight gap between the edge of the standard throttle flaps and the edge of the bigger chokes.

    Resault - air flow at idle increased - resault - it would rev at about 2500rpm at idle.
    Am i missing something, or do the throttle plates need to be replaced to match the bored out choke?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    the choke isnt the bit where the throttle butterflies are, the choke is the bit where the carb narrows just above the butterflies, hense the fact you can open up the chokes but without needing bigger butterflies

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Ah yeah, see what you mean, sorry for being such a numpty, ive never bothered to take much notice of where they were.
    oops

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