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Thread: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

  1. #201
    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I agree, there is nothing wrong with a diy flowbench for testing what modifications work and what one do not.

    On the other hand I do agree that the std intake manifold can flow enough air for a 350 and maybe a 500 cfm carb to give noticeable bhp gains.

    My theory that an inlet manifold should flow more air than the inlet ports and that the carb should flow more air than the inlet manifold stands true.

    However I understand why Graham wants the carb to only flow as much as the manifold as fuel econemy is the name of the game with this engine he is currently building and all of the mods he has done to the manifold and carb will give a substantial improvement in torque and bhp.

    Regards
    Jason

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    My theory that an inlet manifold should flow more air than the inlet ports and that the carb should flow more air than the inlet manifold stands true.
    when all out power is required then again i agree jason, which is why on my race engine and on linford i modded the manifolds make sure they have absolutley zero flow restriction and why i went for enormus 50mm T/Bs, although even they restrict flow slightly,

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Hello newbie here to the forum, although i have been browsing the forum for some time as a guest

    must say ive been hooked on this particular thread, and have over the years messed around boring out DGAs carbs, to varying degrees of success, ive scrapped a few carbs too

    im going to get to work on modding my inlet manifold, thanks to grahams flow testing articles

    im missing the power of my weber 45 side draughts, they have been gathering dust on a shelf for some time now, just too juicy on fuel which is the main reason im considering the economy/performance of a modded DGAS
    Last edited by capri dave; 02-09-2009 at 21:39.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Hi, I've been lurking here for a while, but this thread's really caught my attention and prompted me to sign up and post. I'm going to have a go at some of the mods listed here but had some questions. First off, what size aux vents should be on a 32/36 from a pinto? Mine has 3.5 Primary, 4.5 secondary, and I've already thinned them out to about 2mm. I'm thinking of switching to a 38 DGAS, would they be any good for that or should I use the DGAS standard ones? How much of an effect do they have?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    from what i could tell thinning the aux vents made no difference to flow on the 32/36, the main restriction is the butterflies and spindles flowed by the chokes, even on a carb with modified spindles and opend out chokes i still couldnt find a flow improvement over a std aux vent,

    however i suspect a 38dgas with enlarged chokes and modded spindles might be another matter

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Ok thanks. They're done anyway so I'll probably still use them, it can't hurt I guess! What do you reckon about the sizes though? are 3.5 and 4.5 suitable for a DGAS?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    has anyone any idea how much it would cost to get a carb and manifold properly modded(x/f) and would it be worth doing to a standard engine. cheers davy

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i would imagine on a std engine you would see a power gain, but only at the very top of the rev range

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    ive been doing a bit of streamlining or improving myself on a 38 dgas, i am currently using a bored out 32/36 dgav on a lightly ported inlet manifold, and for sure ive noticed an improvement in top end power, but i was a little dissapointed with the around town light throttle jerking.
    so i hatched a plan to buy a cheap 2nd hand 38 dgas off e-bay and try and improve it to perform like the bored out 32/36 but retain the std choke size to give (hopefully) smooth around town driving...

    1st i noticed that although theres 2x38mm throttle butterflys, (a good 8mm combined area improvement over the 32/36) the actual
    throttle spindles on the dgas are "HUGE" with equally "HUGE" throttle plate screws...



    surely...i thought thinning these down alone should yield good results, as graham picked up quite a lot of extra flow on his modded 32/36 by doing this mod, and the 32/36 spindles already look about half the thickness of my dgas spindles

    The modded dgas spindles with counter sunk and flush fitting screws...





    also choke flaps removed, aux venturi's modded and chemical metaled into place (risky), and casting ridges smoothed on main venturi's...



    so far my mods are untested, ive got a spare inlet manifold im going to carry out the plenum chamber mods to as graham did

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    1st i noticed that although theres 2x38mm throttle butterflys, (a good 8mm combined area improvement over the 32/36) the actual
    throttle spindles on the dgas are "HUGE" with equally "HUGE" throttle plate screws...
    something i noticed, a fair chunk of the potiential flow gain over the 32/36 must be lost with such bulky spindles.

    im not sure about the aux vent mods, on the 32/36 i couldnt find a flow gain from modifying them, but possibly with the higher flowing 38 you might find gains, one would certainly hope so

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    Bodger capri dave's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i was thinking, if a dgas is generally worth around 5bhp over a 32/36, there could possibly be the same again
    just from filing down the huge dgas throttle shafts, and yes i read your thread about modding the aux venturis
    and removing the choke flaps not making much difference, but my thinking was,
    i had them out anyway....so it'd be rude not to

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    hi all, can anyone tell me what markings am i looking for on a 32/36.. is it 32/36 or something else...i just found a carb with 32DGV on it, is this similar or not worth bothering about, cheers davy

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    32dgv, is somthing different, you want a 32/36 dgav

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    hi again m8, can you tell me if a 32dgr is any good as i`ve got 1 in the loft... also can you tell me what i`m looking for to ID a gt manifold. cheers again davy

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    thers nothing wrong with a 32dgr, except that for performance applications its rather small having 2 x32mm throttles so you need to find a 32/36

    remanifold? are you talking pinto or x/flow? either way gt manifolds have 4 bolt fitting for the carb non gt 2

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    thanks again GB. has anyone got a modded carb and modded x/f manifold for sale

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Just to bring this thread up to date...
    Yesterday I took my car to AB garage in Hawarden to get the engine set up properly. To add a little bit of interest I initially had the completely standard 32/26DGAV jetted and a power run taken, then swapped this carb for my modded 32/36 with both chokes bored to 30mm.

    Interestingly enough the bored out carb produced almost exactly the same power and torque as the standard carb when both were jetted correctly! The bored out carb needed vastly larger fuel jets to get the mixture correct - I don't have the figures to hand, but it was something in the order of 5 or 6 sizes different between the two carbs! We think that this was due to a lower gas speed through the carb resucing the signal seen at the auxy venturies, so bigger jets were needed to 'pull' the same amount of fuel through.

    What was the most surprising thing was that after we were done we put the K&N filter back on the carb and decided to do another power run before packing up, we were surprised to find that the engine was now making an extra 4bhp at the wheels and more power overall throughout the rev range!

    The bored carb sounded throatier and seemed to be a bit more responsive on the dyno, I'm going to drive with the bored out carb fitted for a while and then swap it for the standard one to compare what they're like to drive.

    This graph is the final power run with the bored carb fitted with the K&N. Power figures are measured at the wheels. Ignore the torque figures as the runs were done in 3rd gear.

    Last edited by exboyracer; 29-04-2010 at 22:10.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    very interesting, a couple of questions, whats the spec of the motr the carbs on and did you just bore the chokes or did it have modified throttle spindles as well?

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Graham,
    The engine is a 1690xflow with a big valve ported head, Kent 234 cam, H&H modified curve dizzy with vac advance, electronic igntion, 105Speed 'Mass' style exhaust manifold and 2" system, ported & JB welded inlet manifold.
    The carb has the butterfly spindles thinned down and the screws countersunk, it also has modified auxy venturies with one leg thinned right down and the leading edge of the venturi sharpened Both carbs were tested with the carb 'hat' fitted..
    Both me and the RR operator were surprised as we both expected more from the modded carb







    Last edited by exboyracer; 30-04-2010 at 09:22.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    after posting the question i seemedc to recall your using an x/flow,

    not a bad result, but i think it just goes to show that on an x/flow of your sort of spec its the inlet manifolding which is holding power back more than the carb, im surewith a pinto manifold being a better shape gains would be forth coming, it also hints at what i found on my flowbench in that the chokes alone are not much of a restriction.

    all of that said 115bhp at the wheels on a 1700 with a twinchoke is pretty good

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Thanks Graham Obviously the mods I made to the inlet manifold haven't been as good as I hoped!

    I suppose I would be looking at 145bhp-ish with sidedraughts then?
    Last edited by exboyracer; 30-04-2010 at 13:23.
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by exboyracer View Post
    Thanks Graham Obviously the mods I made to the inlet manifold haven't been as good as I hoped!

    I suppose I would be looking at 145bhp-ish with sidedraughts then?
    i think its just a case of the xflow manifold not being a great design in the first place, it distributes fuel nice and evenly but has way to many sharp 90 degree turns

    i think 145 would be rather optomisic with a 234 cam

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Fair enough, I was just trying to work out how much I am losing by using the downdraught instead of sidedraughts. Not a lot by the sounds of it!
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    5-10 bhp i recon, although on sidedrafts it would probably hang onto the power longer

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    well i tell you what i just spent 2 hours reading through all of this, its fasinating, i've got a one month budget build to try and get my standard capri in the 16's (currently 17.6 with k&n, felpro head gasket and tubular exhaust manifold only), i've been porting the exhaust ports on and injection head, gonna raise compression to 10.2-10.3 to 1, use a second hand fr32 (if its any good, if not i got a new fr30), cut out my mid box and replace with pipe then all i had to do was sort fueling, i was going to just throw on a 38dgas on a ported inlet manifold and get it RR at track and road in rainaim in the end but is it worth it, i already have a 32/36 and a 38, if i thin down the spindles and give it a good polish down the chokes, am i gonna see much difference between the 2 carbs with same mods? quick reply would be spot on coz the cars gotta be ready for 5th of june and i'll i've done is port the head

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    yes im sure the same mods on a 38 dgas will make more power than on the 32/36, its my belief that with both carbs its the throttles are the biggest restriction, so modding the 38dgas which flows more in the first place will give greater benifit

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    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    beautifull stuff, you are a diamond, and talk about a quick reply lol, have any idea of a basic setup for the 38 on my setup to get me to the rollers as its currently bare with no jets etc, and i know you use track and road for your race car didn't you, i'm asuming the man is more thn fully capable for carbs like this as its only down the road to me.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I believe that a 38 dgas with a progressive linkage like a 32/36 would be the best carb. Good throtle response with the advantage of big chokes for big power.


    TOm

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    yeah i might aswell give that a go while i'm at it, i'll be off to the shed in a few moments soon to play with them, i need more days off, i'm seriously running low on time lol.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    i sort of agree with the progressive linkage, i always found my right foot has all the progression i needed, too much throttle at low speed will result in a flat spot whatever sort of linkage you have!

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    true but a 32/36 carb is a very easy carb to drive with, i've alway thought progression throttle opening was brilliant and dont understand why they're not used in modern injection systems, single butterflys are so sensitive at initial throttle but not much difference in the later half, think about the difference in air flow to the first 0-25% of throttle on a single butterfly is considerably more to that of the last 75-100% throttle where as progressive throttle almost gives a much smoother if you like throttle opening.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    I also think that the progressive opening of the throttles would help a lot with fuel efficiency. It would work on one throttle most of the time while around town but have the second throttle there when needed.

    Tom

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    tell you what guys, i've found something very intersting in the shed, a 40 dfav, so its the upgrade to the upgrade however is this a stupid idea to bolt this to a pinto or will it work well everyday like the 38 ? quick reply as normall please as i now have exactly 31 days to build my pinto and seriously low on time consiering i get 6 hours max really in the shed each week cheers lads, knowledge is power and we all like more power

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    40 DFAV origonal fitment to essex 3.0 v6 as fitted to mk4 zodiacs and very early mk1 3.0 capri

    good 2x40mm throttles and 2X28mm chokes so it is better flowing than a 38 dgas,

    Bad, no power valve so it has to be jetted very big mains compaired to a 38 dgas and can lead to less drivabilty very poor ecomonmy emissions and lead to bore wash,

    overall its a backwards step from a 38 dgas, infact the 38dgas was the carb ford replaced the 40dfav with, but it will give more power than a dgas, although ford improved the engines when they changed carb type so power infact went up not down with the smaller dgas
    Last edited by Graham; 05-05-2010 at 21:54.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Interesting stuff. It does appear to have some sort of power valve. If someone can help me understand how to load up pictures i'll show you. It seems to have a wierd rod on the opposite corner to the throttle linkage going up to some springed valved thing in the lid. Its difficult to explain. How do i load pictures unless you know what i mean lol.

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    There is an uploader link on the top of this web page. Click on that and you can upload .jpg files and a few other formats. Copy the link which starts with [img] and finishes with I think [/img] and paste it into your post and the picture will be visible. It is better if you can resize the image before uploading to around 640 X480 or less. A program called irfanview can resize images for you and it is free to download from the web.


    Regards
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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    Interesting stuff. It does appear to have some sort of power valve. If someone can help me understand how to load up pictures i'll show you. It seems to have a wierd rod on the opposite corner to the throttle linkage going up to some springed valved thing in the lid. Its difficult to explain. How do i load pictures unless you know what i mean lol.
    opps!

    yes your right it will have a power valve that will teach me to post stuff half asleep, its the 40 DFI5 that does not have a power valve at all, the 40 DFAV does indeed, it has a mechanical power valve rather than a diaphram operated one on the 38dgas so its still not as good as a dgas EXcept that it wil give more power, but port the manifold to get the most from it

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Great thread....one of many..
    Need some ideas for my pinto 1/4 miler ...i am looking in the grey areas (dont want to break to many rules)

    the engine in question
    2 .o pinto bored + 1.5 mm 205 block...injection rods.... Bottom end balanced, lightened fly wheel.( of 1600 smaller clutch) doweled ..high pressure oil pump .oil cooler .baffled sump..

    Injection head ..bronze guides.. Std valves 3 angle seats.. Std cast exhauste manifold (4-2-1 then 2" bore transit rear box exits before rear axle..
    Skimmed 10 +.1 compression ..stnd inlet manifold 32/36 dgav carb ... Bosch dizzy altered advance curve 18 deg static 38 total at 3400 revs ..no vac
    24 volt starter.. Piper cam 312 duration matched single springs ..burton followers...mk 1 escort fan direct drive (no alternator) no air filter..
    Run "8" on the plugs ...4 core leads..
    Everything works together great. Pulls like a horse .revs 7400 still pulling (run out of track)

    but i need to find 0.5 a second a lap...

    So the big question what can i do to my carb..

    It is just jetted for flat out throttle still progresive(i prefer this it gives my brain a split second to correct out of corner)
    all choke parts removed

    i have a few ideas from the thread ,,but other opinions are welcomed(and needed)

    "
    if i cant make it i cant have it''

    i will uploade the rule specs for all to see (when i work out how to)

    madragon199

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    a few things come immediatly to mind first i'd raise the compression to 10.5:1, or perhaps a fraction higher still,

    if you can used sidedraft carbs

    bigger inlet valves will give more power, with a pinto theres no down side to using bigger inlet valves

    if your running out of track not revs you need to build more midrange punch into your engine which is where if allowed more compression and bigger inlet valves will really score

    if you can fit a proper 4 branch exhaust manifold, im not sure a transit exhaust box will really be good enough

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    Re: Removing Choke Butterflies from 32/36

    Here they are....

    cheers madragon
    Last edited by Dave; 27-09-2010 at 23:28.

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