type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Hopefully someone can help please - getting bored of taking my gearbox out!
i have type 9 box and have fitted it with hydraulic concentric clutch (rally design / burton type. Engine is a zetec Se 1600 (Ford Focus / puma etc) I have fitted the new hydraulic clutch setup and a new clutch cover (updated Helix type) at the same time. Clutch plate is a pinto item I believe.
pressing the clutch pedal moves slave cylinder (looks like about 20mm) which immediately engages and moves clutch cover fingers but the pedal stops (and won't go any further) so the clutch plate cant disengage. if I open the slave bleed valve I can get the pedal to the floor so master cylinder isn't the issue (and I've changed it for a .75 just to be sure-same issue), the slave cylinder when off the gearbox moves as it should has full travel.
So, it must be something mechanical rather than hydraulic ? (Clutch plate is the right way around). It's almost like the fingers of the clutch cover when being pressed by the thrust bearing "bottom out" and contact the clutch plate before the clutch plate is released?? If that's possible?
any help much appreciated
cheers
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
sound to me like the concentric is too far away from the clutch
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Would say that spacers are required behind the slave, when fitted how much can you lever the release bearing back from the cover ? The amount of clearence when this is done will tell you the spacer you require allowing a tolerance for clutch wear.
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Thanks for the replies, I have a 38mm spacer fitted so the bearing is just touching the clutch fingers at rest (may machine it down so there's a few mm gap, but after I've sorted this issue). So it's not travel of the slave that's my problem I don't think. If think if I was running out if travel on the slave I would have popped the seal as the slave would have over-travelled by now?
When the clutch pedal reaches the end of its travel it is solid as if it's metal on metal (and there is plenty of room for the master cylinder and pedal to continue)
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Racer
Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
The problem might just be that you could have too much travel and the springs in pressure plate could be going over centre. The way to check is to press down the clutch peddle down approx 2 thirds travel and see if you can turn the engine over by hand to see if the clutch is clearing. If you do have too much travel you either need a smaller master cylinder or a stop on the clutch peddle.
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
if clutch doesnt clear and the master isnt running out of travel the slave must be
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
The over centre of the spring sounds like the type of issue (thanks Forest Rallying) I'm seeing, but the pedal doesn't travel that far (or so it seems, but its hydraulic so could be).
The thrust bearing is in contact with the clutch cover at rest (which may mean it's actually pressed the plate springs/fingers in as I've bolted the box up, then small peddle movement could push it too far)
I was trying to upload a video or picture of the slave working (link doesn't work to manage attachments)
But I can see the bearing move about 20mm against the clutch. I have also installed the clutch without the spacer and the slave very easily goes too far and breaks the hydraulic seal so I don't think that's it.
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Racer
Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
When you finally get your concentric bearing right when it's touching the clutch plate when bled up, the bearing needs to be able to retract itself back in as the clutch wears. If you overlook this then the clutch will soon start to slip as it beds in.
I hope all that makes sense and good luck, anything with hydraulic clutches are a pain in the backside to get set right, but when finished and working correctly they are much better than a cable.
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Pictures of
- clutch slave at rest
- clutch slave at full pedal travel
- clutch bearing in relation to clutch cover (touching/pressing)
- clutch cover no gearbox
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
all the oe fitment concentrics that i know of are sprung so that they are at full extension at rest, so if its only just touching the clutch with the gearbox installed its probably too far away
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Thanks again graham for you input. This concentric is same as this one:
http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/product...d8bkbijjoshd46
(The thrust bearing is not shown but sits on the black bit in the pic - the picture is shown fully closed at rest so not sprung).
So, I've been under the car for the afternoon. With just the bellhousing bolted up I have placed the clutch slave assembly minus the nose (nose measures 23.5mm and is still on box) against the clutch cover fingers and I have measurement of 21mm from back of clutch slave to rear of B'housing. Based on this the clutch is being pressed about 2.5mm when all assembled.
Also measured from clutch cover fingers to rear of B'housing which is 114mm.
Clutch assembly on gearbox (including nose) to thrust bearing measures 115mm
So everything is spaced about where it should be (some bearings run engaged with some preload in the clutch, this particular type is not supposed to and apparently should be a gap of about 3mm to allow for wear).
No further forward. I think that's the previous theory of the clutch cover fingers being pressed too far is out the window.
The measurement of clutch plate fingers to clutch plate is 16mm and I'm getting about that amount of travel in the slave when it was all plumbed in but then is stops solidly (as it the fingers are hitting the clutch plate). Could it be the clutch cover is not compatible with the clutch plate? Is there anyway of testing to see if the clutch plate releases when cover fingers are pressed? I was thinking of refitting the cable clutch arm and bearing to the bell-housing and see if I can get the plate to move - I also thought about pissing in the wind so I feel like I've achieved something.
Again any help much appreciated (and is anyone running a type 9 hydraulic clutch with a fiesta st150 uprated Helix clutch with pinto plate on a Zetec SE/sigma?)
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
The only way the fingers on the cover would go past centre is if the plate is too thick, so two options are open to you. Pack the cover off with spacers to achieve correct clutch clearence and enable it to disengage or machine the flywheel face where the plate runs. Me I would go with first option and if and when it works measure spacers and machine that amount off flywheel where the plate runs so getting a rebated flywheel.
The Following User Says Thank You to Colr6 For This Useful Post:
Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Thanks Colr6, what sort of spacing or machining are you thinking I don't really want to machine 4/5mm out the flywheel (do I?) if that's what it needs. Don't know if I can get a thinner clutch plate or maybe another clutch cover that will work. The standard Zetec SE cover worked ok before I went hydraulic and uprated the cover (at the same time) the clutch cover is a proven upgrade for Pumas / focus etc so didn't think I have to modify it to work. But it looks like this is the problem. Perhaps a lighten flywheel maybe thinner £££?
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Thanks Colr6, what sort of spacing or machining are you thinking I don't really want to machine 4/5mm out the flywheel (do I?) if that's what it needs. Don't know if I can get a thinner clutch plate or maybe another clutch cover that will work. The standard Zetec SE cover worked ok before I went hydraulic and uprated the cover (at the same time) the clutch cover is a proven upgrade for Pumas / focus etc so didn't think I have to modify it to work. But it looks like this is the problem. Perhaps a lighten flywheel maybe thinner £££?
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Try fitting washers between clutch cover and flywheel, start off with one each stud and add as necessary to see if it cures a problem. A bit primitive I know but might get the answer to your problem. It's only your time and not wasting money on something that might poss work. If it does cure the problem then it's just measure the thickness of washers fitted and have the plate part of the flywheel machined by that amount. Is there any focus or Pumas fitted with a stepped flywheel ?? Or are you mixing covers and plates that normally don't go together ?
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Sounds like a sensible approach I think I need to be able to test the clutch actuation somehow without bolting up the whole box as on my own on the deck is not a fun job (for the 8th time). Hopefully I can get the old cable operated arm and release bearing on the bellhousing to test - bolt the arm up (where the cable would normally be) and see if I can somehow spin/move the clutch plate.
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Re: type 9 hydraulic clutch not releasing
Dud this ever get sorted as I have the same prob, thank you
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