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Thread: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

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    Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Hi all

    I think I will try to document my new engine build for the Capri, hopefully I can get some insights and help if I need it.

    As some of you may know, I have been running turbo Pinto's in my MkII/III Capri since 1999 (I think). The first iteration was a standard high compression (9.2:1) Pinto, fitted with K-jetronic injection and a Mitsubishi 16T turbo. In an attempt to battle detonation I put together a low compression (8.2:1) bottom end using standard cast pistons (came from a Granada automatic Pinto but the same as Transit pistons). When I finally broke the ringlands on that (must have been 2006) I built a new bottom end using YB rods and pistons, and slapped on a Holset HX35 turbo. By then I had developed many things and also ran Megasquirt engine management.

    That engine was used for some years and then the car had a body restoration between 2010 and 2014 or so. In Octobre 2015 the engine was dynoed at 280 whp and 400 Nm, at 1.8 bar of boost. But the very low compression ratio with the YB pistons meant that it was too lazy off-boost and spooled too slowly. During the summer of 2016 I decided to build a new bottom end with higher compression ratio.

    The basic concept will be mostly the same but with more compression and hopefully a better flowing head to give a more responsive engine - not necessarily with more power than before.

    Specification:
    205 Pinto block
    DP Pistons in 91,5 mm bore, 38 mm flat tops (should give me around 8.5:1 CR)
    YB rods
    RWD YB oil pump and spray bar
    YB sump with wings, and trap doors
    Pinto crank
    TTV steel flywheel to take 240 mm YB clutch
    Fluidampr front pulley, multirib

    Head (not decided on carb or EFI casting yet) with slight port job
    Paul Ivey/REC valves (REC 882 inlets 1.800”/45.7mm, REC 297 exhaust1.500”/38.0mm)
    Kent FR34 camshaft

    "Swedish plenum" intake, YB trumpets fixed to Pinto flange
    Pulse split exhaust manifold
    60 mm wastegate

    Turbo will probably be the HX35 at least for now to see how it spools. I have the old Mitsubishi TD04-16T on the shelf but it might be a bit small - and I have a Mitsubishi 19T that I might try.

    Right now I have cleaned up the block and it is basically ready to go for boring, but I will waint until I get the pistons (should be arriving the next days).

    When I was at the SEMA show a couple of weeks ago I spoke to Cometic about an MLS gasket. I would like some opinions here - I have used standard YB gaskets earlier but with the 91.5 mm bore, I am a bit unsure. Cometic said they will do a special gasket for me, but what are the chances of an off the shelf 92.2 mm gasket surviving?

    I'm hoping to be able to run at least 1,5 bar of boost. Management (ignition and fuel) will be MS3 as before, and the basic plan is to run regular petrol. May consider E85 if I need to but I'd rather avoid it.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    why not use an off the shelf 93mm mls gasket?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Well, I am a bit concerned about running a gasket that has a bore that is 1 or 1,5 mm larger than the cylinder bore.

    I have little or no experience of running overbored engines so that's why I ask... They are available in 92.5 mm (mistyped above) so that would of course be the easiest solution.

    Thanks

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    i see no need to worry, infact its a good thing, it keeps the gasket away from the heat. afterall its not much different using a gasket which will accept 92.5 or 93mm bore but with std 90.8 bores

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    OK, thanks for that valuable input. That means I can try a standard YB head gasket first.

    If it does let go it's not a big deal.

    Regards

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    If you already making custom pistons, why aren't you doing the same compression height as YB to have stock 9,2 compression ? You think it's a problem on regular 98 octane fuel ? This is what I was planning on my next engine.

    What do you want from your engine ? To be responsive or powerful ? It's a 2 liter engine and I don't think it's possible to have both And the turbo will have the most important role here. Which HX35 are you using? What is compressor inducer's diameter? Turbine exducer diameter ?

    And also I'm very curious - what intercooler were you using on old engine with 1,8 bar of boost? What intake temps were you seeing ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I expect detonation problems on 9.2:1 (unless I go E85) and the old engine I had with 8.2:1 had a nice power curve, that's why I figured a little bit higher compression would be a decent compromise. I also prefer to err on the safe side - I don't want to blow the engine up and I'm willing to accept some trade-offs.

    The engine has to be both powerful (ish) and responsive (ish), meaning I want around 300 bhp and at least something like 3500 rpm of useful power band, I do think that is possible on a Pinto turbo but time will tell.

    The HX35 is 54/83 with the 12 cm2 exhaust housing but I also have a HX32 that has a smaller 8 cm2 exhaust housing. But swapping out the turbo to get exactly what I want is no problem. I plan to start with the HX35 to really get a comparison of the different engines though.

    On the dyno run I had a standard Sierra Cosworth 4x4 intercooler and that was swapped to a larger run of the mill chinese intercooler since we had some issues with saturating the smaller intercooler on the dyno. I don't have the log files here but I have not seen alarming intake temperatures on the road.

    Regards

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    What gearbox and axle are you using for this massive 300 HP ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Did you skim your head ? I skimmed mine by 1,4mm and I should be seeing around 8,5 CR according to some calculators. I think this is also an option to increase CR.

    As long as you use proper knock detection (like Phormula) you shouldn't be having problems unless you end up with very low advance and high EGT. I ended up around 21 degrees on 1,6 bar and 7k rpm.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I run a Borg Warner T5 (Sierra Cosworth rwd) and a Sierra rear axle, although it has a Quaife diff and steel driveshafts - upgrading to 108 mm CV joints and thicker shafts this winter.

    The head is not skimmed (yet, may do). I have tried knock detection before (way before) and found it hard t o adjust properly. May try again but based on how the old 8.2:1 engine performed I think this will meet my demands.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    The block is at the machinist getting bored.

    Next choice is what head to base the build on. I am out of "spare" EFI heads (but have one on the engine currently in the car), but have three carb heads on the shelf. Someone has been having reported issues with valve seats falling out of EFI heads but I thought the "unleaded heads" just had induction hardened seats, no loose rings. Is that correct?

    One part of me wants to work on one of the carb heads I have (I have ran it before, it is already a bit ported) to make it easier not having to strip the current engine now. But I also don't want to spend too much time porting it more. The other part says an EFI head is the natural choice...

    Opinions?

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    unleaded heads are not induction hardened do have separate exhaust valve seats, never experienced it but i have heard of them falling out
    Last edited by Graham; 28-11-2016 at 15:13.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Ah, good thing I asked (so much for information from the memory).

    Might as well use a carb head then I think.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Watching this with interest as it is very similar to my build that is getting much closer to completion now.


    Mine is running 8:5:1 using forged rods and pistons with a cosworth crank, flywheel and clutch in a 205 bottom end. I have the efi head that has been ported and has bigger valves and the multi layer metal head gasket. I too plan on using the holset HX35 with an external gate (currently 38mm, but think this maybe a little small) with an FR32 cam. What size injectors do you have? Mine are currently 630cc.


    Hopin in the next few weeks to have it fired up and running, what with moving twice and getting married the project has taken a lot longer than I would have liked.
    Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Yes, sounds quite similar :-)

    A 38 mm wastegate may well be OK if you only plan on running rather high boost levels. At least if it is of decent quality and has good flow.

    My injectors are 875 cc/min but I think I have some head room there.

    We will have snow now until April at least so I have some time to work on this.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I'm following this one too I have a question regarding the YB oil spray bar (under piston squirters) The oil galleries in the Pinto head are a different size to YB. My engine builder has concerns regarding oil pressure when we add the oil spray bar. What effect has it had on your oil pressure, if any? And also, what oil pump are you using? Thanks very much
    Last edited by OZMK1; 09-12-2016 at 15:19.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I have seen no problems, same oil pressure as before and I now use a standard Pinto oil pump.


    I'll check the cam etc. for wear again now when I take the "old" engine out but I don't think it will be an issue.


    Just started working on a head I will use, I have checked valve train geometry and coil bind with standard valves and all look fine. Just hope the seats for the new valves can be made at the same height so it will work with them too.


    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I think to make the numbers I would like to see out of it and think it is capable of it'll need to run some quite big boost, that was my thinking behind the 38mm waste gate, may neeed to change the spring it but will see once it is running how it fairs.

    What injectors are you using? am starting to think they maybe maxed out pretty quick, having some head room is no bad thing at least you know in the future youll not need to upgrade them again
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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    The injectors are from a local tuner who flow checks them, I think they are Siemens Deka (and 875 cc @ 3bar) but not sure about the brand.

    The more boost you want to run, the smaller wastegate is needed (since you need to bleed off less). I picked the 60 mm 10 years ago because that size was rumoured to have better machining (run of the mill Chinese wastegate). A downside with the large diameter is that a small leak will bleed of quite some boost.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Not too much to update, I have the head at the machine shop to cut the seats for the new valves and fix the guides.

    The "old" engine is out of the car and last night i took the clutch and flywheel off. The clutch (Sachs 858 6-pad sprung disc and 695 pressure plate) looks fine. Pads are at 8 mm thickness and I think out of the box they are 8.1 mm or so, should be fine to re-use.

    I need to get the old engine on a stand to tear it apart since I plan to use the crank, rods, oil spray bar, sump and possibly oil pump from that one.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    With the family heading off for a ski tour I got some hours in the garage tonight and tore the old engine apart.

    Cam looks great, bores look great and so does the pistons.

    But when I took out the crank and piston/rods, everything was not as nice.

    Big end bearing 1 had some light lines:

    Click image for larger version Name:	20170105_195052 (Small).jpg Views:	390 Size:	115.5 KB ID:	80104

    Number 2 was worse:

    Click image for larger version Name:	20170105_194934 (Small).jpg Views:	387 Size:	101.3 KB ID:	80105
    Click image for larger version Name:	20170105_194955 (Small).jpg Views:	387 Size:	97.0 KB ID:	80106

    The crank has lines that are quite large, can clearly feel them with the nail and finger tip;

    Click image for larger version Name:	20170105_195130 (Small).jpg Views:	387 Size:	99.2 KB ID:	80107

    OK, so I guess I won't be using that crank then. Pity, since it is doweled for the flywheel. I have another EFI crank (from the block I will be using) that looks fine so I'll probably use that, and get it doweled instead. The other option is a YB crank a friend has, that is ground undersize. But using that means I need to get a YB flywheel too (I already have a nice TTV steel 6-bolt flywheel for the 240 mm clutch).

    I know that the engine has been started (but not driven) with too little oil once - a mathematical error or my part :-(

    I hope that is what caused this. Since I fitted the big winged and baffled sump I have been keeping an eye on oil pressure on track and don't can't remember it ever falling noticeably but I'm not really sure before that. It was so long ago I don't remember. But I do think I need a low oil pressure light together with the mechanical gauge now. Just need to find a switch that triggers early enough.

    Oh, and the family turned around after 60 kilometres - engine fault light on the Kuga. Let's blame the minus 25 degrees centigrade :-(

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Once on stock EFI pinto (quite an old engine already) oil pump relief valve got stuck while driving and the pressure disappeared. The engine was running a bit, also driven a bit (from trailer to garage, etc). In the sump there were some cooper residuals, but after replacing the pump to burton hi pressure one, the engine ran 1000+ km on the the track and keeps running further however I cannot confirm how the bearings look like, guess not too good.

    Just for reference, what oil are you running ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I have been running some different oils (this engine was assembled in 2007) but generally a 15-40 or 20-50, mostly Castrol GTX I think but most recently a Meguin oil and some other local brand.

    I'm not sure what cylinder big end that will loose oil first, maybe someone else knows?

    At first startup the engine was primed with a drill running the oil pump through a stripped distributor until I had good pressure and then some more so I don't think it's a dry startup.

    The main bearings all look fine.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    looks like its work hard, a start up with low oil wont do that, theres no load on the bearing, what fuel are you running? could be something like E85 and lots of it thinning the oil?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I have not run E85, it's normal petrol.

    Would oil starvation from running R-tyres and an un-baffled sump be a possible reason? I did some track days before I swapped in the winged and baffled sump, and that was when the R-tyres were new, so it was with quite high G-forces.

    I can't remember for sure but I can imagine I saw some oil pressure drop back then and that's why I bought the nice sump (off David White!).

    Thanks for the advice, it is highly appreciated!

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri


    Would oil starvation from running R-tyres and an un-baffled sump be a possible reason?
    absolutely it would, the wear is very localised suggesting to me an oil film breakdown under heavy load, rather than general wear and tear

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri


    Would oil starvation from running R-tyres and an un-baffled sump be a possible reason?
    absolutely it would, the wear is very localised suggesting to me an oil film breakdown under heavy load, rather than general wear and tear

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    OK, good, I think that sounds plausible, and also means I probably have a solution for it. So the new engine hopefully won't suffer the same...

    Thanks

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Hi Gustaf,

    For sure it's an oil problem but why. Did you had an oil pressure read out on the dash + oil temp? Do you know the numbers? Indeed, hard cornering etc can cause air entering the oil system, pressure is still ok but oil looks like foam (air oil) and is not what is needed and can not hold a single kind of bearing pressure. Please note, oil pressure is not zero in these kind of conditions. Reason why some think we had oil pressure, can be the problem. Please note, no oil cooler, no chance, rods will go. Oil must be at a low temp, not 100 - 110° or it's done. Preferable under 90°

    I second problem I've seen here on my dyno when testing both Pinto's and Honda's with turbo. My Pinto turbo was making almost full torque at lower RPM than where I had max oil pressure. Pinto's compared to Cosworths "loose" a lot more oil in the cylinder head. The camshaft lubrication is almost a full drain. I had serious marks on my bearings before testing was over and dyno mean, no corners, steady engine. The only way to fix it was using the high capacity oil pump. Unfortunately, It's currently only available from Burton and all oil pumps I have an seen in the last few years all died very young.

    The Honda S2000 had about the same problem. When V-tec not active, Honda opens a hole in the cylinder head and oil pressure drops from 6 to 4 bar. So if you got high torque before the V-tec get in, you have the same problem. At least I had this problem. Most Honda turbo drivers don't because they are all using giant big turbo's, not making any boost, not making any torque and don't have the problem. My turbo (both Pinto and S2000) had torque very low and no turbo delay. I took out the V-tec cam, using single lobe cams and problem fixed.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    double post

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    So doesn't anybody make a decent oil pump for pinto/cossie anymore ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    No, you can find some old stock standard capacity oil pumps but I did not found any high capacity anymore and for years. Only Burton but it's real crap.

    Gears and body worn out after a dyno session or at least in a short time.

    I've just bought a standard capacity Melling pump in USA. Hope they still supply the right quality but for sure it's not a high cap pump. I believe Ford used to fit high capacity pumps into Transit. But not 100% sure.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Since the bottom end always has been a "cheap build" I have been lazy on oil data. I have only had the standard Capri mechanical gauge on the dash.

    I just ordered an adjustable oil pressure switch to trigger a warning light (and possibly summer to have a audible signal as well) but it may be a good idea to investigate a true oil pressure sender and temp sender as well, to log things in the Megasquirt. But there will be many sensors :-/

    Interesting about the oil pressure and pumps. I have an old Burton high pressure/high volume pump I used in an earlier engine. But that is not compatible with the YB rwd pump lid to have the oil sprayers for the pistons...

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Old Burton pumps where Kent Cam products. Never had a problem with them. Same for standard size pump in the past. The one sold now !!!!

    Please be careful, little air in oil and pressure is almost the same, only the air does nothing to protect the bearings. Look into a good dry sump reservoir. They turn oil to the wall to get rid of the air. I once had a customer with a square home build dry sump tank. Lost 2 engines before realized air was traveling with the oil.

    You can build a big oil pump using 2 standard rotors but one cut and the other rotor also cut but fitted one in top and one bottom so they drive together. You will need a small spacer for extra length of the outer body.

    Second option may be using a large (or double) rotor dry sump pump and use as single stage and original oil sump. More complex but probably best option in between if full dry sump is not possible.

  37. #35
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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Dry sumping feels a bit over the top, that's more money than I would like to spend on a Pinto. I didn't find my old hp/high volume pump when I searched now, I may have sold it :-( Need to check again but I'm not sure I could sort the oil spray lid.

    I do think that with the winged sump and the baffles with trap doors, the oil should be reasonably free from air but it's hard to know of course.

    Anyway, I did a dry build of the pistons and rods now and I may have made an error on the CR calculation, it seems I end up at around 8.16 as it looks now (piston is 2,4 mm down the bore). But that is based on a 48 cc head but I need to cc my head when I get it back from having the valve seats fixed. I may need to skim it a bit more than planned.

    I would rather not skim the block, I think, since the 8.16 is pretty good if I for some reason would like to back to a "low cr high boost" setup.

    Gustaf

  38. #36
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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    What about oil pumps made by Cosworth? Seems to be pricey but maybe better that Burton's ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Problem with all Cosworth pump is, none has a higher capacity as the original oil pump. I've just bought a Milling oil pump in USA. Full cast iron body pump (no alloy) and good quality. But still standard capacity.

  40. #38
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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Ok, the machine shop has finally released the head so I can get going again.

    I cc'ed it now and I get 50 cc chamber volume and that calculates to 7.7:1 CR if I'm right (using a 1.4 mm head gasket), b*gger. I must have made some mistake when I made the calculations for the 38 mm compression height (they sit 2.4 mm below the deck face according to my notes).

    Decking the block 1 mm would give me 8.38:1 and that is somewhat closer to the 8.5:1 I was aiming for.

    I could skim the head a bit more (now it's just had a slight surfacing) too I guess.

    What's your preferences on skimming head or block, or both? Decking the block sort of means it's harder to go back to a lower compression ratio if I would like to but honestly I'm sure I see a need for that.

    Gustaf

  41. #39
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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I did the head but I had no other choice as Cosworth pistons are above deck and I'm already running very low squish. If I were you I would also do the head as the idea of thinning the deck doesn't sound too good for me. But maybe more experienced builders will have another opinion

    I require photos !! Indeed would be interesting to see your progress

  42. #40
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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Photos will come when there is something to see :-)

    Typo in the last post, should be;
    Decking the block sort of means it's harder to go back to a lower compression ratio if I would like to but honestly I'm NOT sure I see a need for that.

    I think I will check how thick the deck seems to be (if I can). Leaning towards getting the block machined - I have more spare blocks than heads!

    Gustaf

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