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Thread: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Updated with a dyno thread, finally :-)

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...60#post3231760

    Gustaf

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    Rolleyes Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by racing escort View Post
    So doesn't anybody make a decent oil pump for pinto/cossie anymore ?
    Cant say that I have used one but there say all the right things

    https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cosworth-...8AAOSwtGlZBDpa

    The cheep mass produced aluminum body is to soft for your high spec cosworth PLUS OUT PUT but fine for classic cars or banga racing, but sounds like the ones you found latter in this thread look go as a side note see link on porting oil pump (better pressure and more bhp)

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=141534

    But to be honest when you are looking at high end engine spec or power you need to think about dry sump when ur sending lots or need the relieablity to win races dry sumps the way or bafelled and big wing sump for cheepness

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Time for a bit of an update on this one, I think. After the dyno session in 2017 (link above) I had lots of other things going on so I didn't get to drive it as much.

    It took some time to fit a gear kit and the endurance racer demanded some work. I still was not really satisfied with the midrange power/torque, so I tried swapping in one of my old short manifolds in an attempt to cure that - but it made no difference. So I went back to looking at different turbos, and almost decided to go for a very nice Borg Warner EFR when a local drifter offered to arrange a good deal on a new version from Kinugawa.

    That's a new(ish) manufacturer that makes Mitsubishi inspired aftermarket turbos. They had a ball bearing version coming out that sounded promising. It is a TD05-16KX, meaning that the compressor is a bit bigger than my 19T but the turbine is a bit smaller. It should spool a bit better and be capable of pretty much the same power overall. Another friend offered to build a manifold (we have built several cars together and since he sold his Zetec Turbo Westfield earlier the build nerve was itching). All nice and well but with the car in winter storage the swap took way longer than planned.

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    Although I trial mounted this in something like March I didn't get the car started until September and brought it home in November. I managed some short test drives and it still didn't really feel like I wanted it to. Throughout the summer I had been thinking about going E85 and this was the deciding factor.

    Since I also had a new MaxxEcu managment system (planned for my daugthers project but we decided to stick to standard management in her Sierra) I felt it was time to upgrade. Recently a local hub dyno has opened and they gave me a deal on a quick test run. I wanted to establish some kind of baseline with this turbo before doing all the changes. Of course the mapping work itself will be wasted but I really wanted to see how it would build boost on regular 95 octane. However, it is impossible to leave things alone.

    I started discussing cam timing before going for the dyno and we came to the idea that we needed to test what we never had time to do back in 2017, advance the cam. Instead of just randomly turning the vernier pulley I had a go at double checking the timing. That measurement said the cam was quite a bit retarded compared to Kent specification for the FR34. Instead of around 2.95 mm lift @ TDC I had close to nothing. Belt stretch or error made when I built the engine?

    I re-set to what I felt was closer to spec, and then checked that we indeed could advance on the dyno. We started using only wastegate spring pressure. Compared to the 19T boost did come on a bit earlier and the VE changed a bit, so we had a bit of a dip at 4250 rpm where fuelling was out. But we got a baseline of around 225 Nm and around 175 whp at 0,75 bar.

    Then we advanced the cam a fair bit (maybe too much?), 5 crank degrees. The dyno says this kicked torque up by almost 50 Nm from 3000 rpm, boost came in around 500 rpm earlier and at 4000 rpm torque increased from around 160 Nm to just over 250 Nm. Now I don't trust this dyno as much as the other one I have used (new operators) but the indicated increase is...impressive.

    Click image for larger version Name:	Capri dyno Kinugawa T05 20201119 cam timing lowres.jpg Views:	180 Size:	68.2 KB ID:	86319

    We tried a bit more advance but then we started loosing again.

    Next step was connecting the boost control solenoid and see how that would change things. Max power was never the goal of this session but you want to know...

    Click image for larger version Name:	Capri dyno Kinugawa T05 20201119 lowres.jpg Views:	183 Size:	91.2 KB ID:	86320

    Without working the boost settings, we got 1,75 bar. That gave us 350 Nm and 279-ish bhp. Compared to the 2017 runs power comes in earlier but with lower boost at torque max, of course torque is down.

    Now this was supposed to be the baseline. But the "knot" on the plot was a bit discomforting. The dyno operator said it sounded like a misfire (we all had headphones connected to the knock sensor), and I accepted that. However, then I started reading up on FR34 cam timing and learnt that common opinion is that it is wiser to start at equal, or almost equal, opening for inlet and exhaust at TDC. So I needed to double check.

    Now, I was back at almost nothing at TDC. Did I make (another...) mistake when I set it up...? And didn't the cam belt feel a bit slack? I actually think the knot on the plot (!) is the cam belt slipping one tooth. Stretched belt or did I not double check the tension?

    Really not sure but for sure, it will be a new quality belt going on. And maybe some more thinking.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    The FR34 timed with almost 3mm inlet at tdc must be very advanced. Adding 5° more and still finding so much more power?? I can hardly believe.

    I've been using FR30 in my turbo setup. The lift at is not much less. When installing symmetric I got less lift at TDC as standard. Let say between 0,5 and 0,7mm.

    Best to measure both in and exhaust lift at TDC. As a starting point time little more lift at TDC for the intake and take graphs from this point. I would be surprised you would end up with 3mm for the inlet.

    I'm still convinced the KENT data is incorrect. I have to order parts from Burton, will buy an FR34 and measured it here in a cylinder head. Maybe this will end the mite about this camshaft and the data. For the FR30 it is the same but I did bought this cam about 10y ago and was not as described in the KENT listing.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Yes, that is my same conclusion. I can not have timed it correctly even the second time. Thinking back, I might have set it at 0,295 mm instead of 2,95 mm. I blame not using the dial indicator since I put the engine together. That makes more sense to me.

    Anyway, with the non trustworthy data I am sort of back to not having a proper baseline. Thoughts of going back to the dyno were there but in the end I decided not to. I am moving forwards (?) instead.

    Some conversation with the guy who sold the turbo, and my other dyno operator, put some focus on the head flow as well. They feel I am missing power. I am not so sure compared to other Pintos I have seen, but having spent some time and money on the head...the idea of actually getting it gas flowed stuck. "Measuring is knowing"...

    Another friend (see a trend?) offered to set the head up in his flow bench since I was gonna do a tech inspection on his lates build anyway. Sure thing.

    I took the head off the other day, and I think that was wise. I had though some plugs looked oily the last time I swapped but when the head was off, the intake ports were pretty wet. I used the Kent supplied valve stem seals and most of them have slipped up the valve guides a fair bit.

    Then I made a simple tool to open the valves for the flow bench.

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    Using an M6x1 bolt means 1 turn gives 1 mm of lift. Ignore the small valve spring, that's just for testing.

    But another thing also was noticed.

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    The valve cotters on intake valve for cylinder 2 have been smashed by the lifter. I had noticed some clatter and was about to re-set the tappets but it seems I was too late. The only reason I can see is that the Paul Ivey/REC valves are maybe a bit shorter above the cotter and gives the lifter a chance to wobble and wear if they are too loose?

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Did you deck the block ?

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Johnston View Post
    Did you deck the block ?
    No, not really. I think I had it ever so slighty surface skimmed when the machine shop bored the cylinders. Just to make sure it is true.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I think you are running the cam follower on top of the retainer clips. You have to shorten te lips on the followers to make them slightly shorter and make clear for the retainers.

    About the power. I had 275 Bhp out a standard Ford cylinderhead, 1,6 bar boost and FR30. No other mods, except DTA ECU and larger injectors. Can't remember the torque anymore. Turbo was standard Cosworth 2WD and probably at the end of his map.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Yes, thanks for confirming, I will adjust the followers. Only this one has touched though. But I guess all are close.

    I have always wanted to flow one of my heads so it will be really interesting and possibly embarrassing :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Really...if you are dynoing the cam and adjusting it for actual gains/losses.....as long as there is no harmful contact, where it is, or where someone thinks it should be becomes a moot point.

    Set it where the engine is performing the best for you and the happiest. Then it is correct. Anywhere else is wrong.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    That is of course true. But...

    A: I think it is interesting to know what it is set at, just for knowledge sake

    B: It is good, IMO, to know so I can relay my information on to other people and possibly assist them. If I for example find out that my engine performs best when I have say 2 mm lift on cylinder 1 @ TDC that's nice to be able to tell others.

    But I fully support the root of what I think youīre saying - if it works, it works :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post
    That is of course true. But...

    A: I think it is interesting to know what it is set at, just for knowledge sake

    B: It is good, IMO, to know so I can relay my information on to other people and possibly assist them. If I for example find out that my engine performs best when I have say 2 mm lift on cylinder 1 @ TDC that's nice to be able to tell others.

    But I fully support the root of what I think youīre saying - if it works, it works :-)

    Gustaf
    I would want to know what it is set at after all that testing.

    Obviously yes you need a starting base too though to know it is at least safe to be swinging things one way or another.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    weird, it double posted.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Totally correct to say you only wanted to know the setting where the dyno is telling you it is best. That's also how I'm working.

    But I feel, setting 5° and gaining so much power, there must have been more involved than just 5°. I've never seen a jump of so much power and torque with resetting 5°.

    So I only wanted to give a starting point for setting a new cam. If is was already at almost 3mm lift at TDC, more advance can't have made a real gain. To be honest, I think it should have been on the way back already

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Surely it would have been easy at the time to put the timing back to where it was to see if it then lost the power again ?
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
    Surely it would have been easy at the time to put the timing back to where it was to see if it then lost the power again ?
    This is something your should ALWAYS do. If you find a "gain", go back to previous situation to see you can loose it again. Otherwise, something else has made a fake reading.

    Where I can I go back and forth several times. Specially with small gains coming from jetting of ignition. You would be surprised how much power difference there is between the first run and run n° 7 for example.

    The chamber temperature and most important, the wet piston and combustion chamber that's still drying up. Wet from fuel, yes fuel. The fuel collected to the wall from cold start does not burn away with the first spark it sees. It takes a long time before the "wet look" on the piston dry up. Take a look into you engine and see the evolution on the dyno. This can make a difference of 5 Bhp form run one up to run ....

    Once the engine is "stable" readings will all be the same and then you should do as much work as you can. After a "phone call", you can start all over again !! Also the reason why rolling roads are not so accurate. Tyres head up, time to change things are going to slow, almost impossible to load engines long enough before even taking an accurate reading, the air cooled Eddy Current brake will be cooking in the small place
    Last edited by Dyno; 09-12-2020 at 07:42.

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
    Surely it would have been easy at the time to put the timing back to where it was to see if it then lost the power again ?
    Yes, we did that, forgot to mention it.

    I have mostly decided that this dyno session was more of a fun thing than a proper data point.

    The really interesting thing will be the future, to see what the head flows, and what we can make the engine do with E85. I might also take another 0,5 mm off the head to gain a bit of compression while I have it off the block.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Back from the flow bench...

    We started by flowing the exhaust port.

    Click image for larger version Name:	20201217_exhaust_1_lowres.jpg Views:	136 Size:	110.9 KB ID:	86340

    Not that impressive...but not much work has really been done there.

    Next step was the intake port, with no inlet manifold fitted.

    Click image for larger version Name:	20201217_intake_2.jpg Views:	133 Size:	126.2 KB ID:	86342

    That doesn't seem too bad, to me, compared to other figures I have seen. No record breaking flow but decent?

    Then we tried with the manifold attached.

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    A little bit lower but it seems that the manifold and plenum flows pretty much OK.

    Our conclusion was that the exhaust is what is holding the engine back. I was given the chance to borrow some porting tools (the flow bench is at a friends workshop, a 5 hour drive away) to try improving the exhaust port and make a new test the morning after. I worked the port basically as Vizard describes widening it so the turn is less sharp. His measurement is 27,05 mm wide, and I used a template to get to that width or a little bit under. I also worked to get more room around the valve guide.

    We only had time to do a quick check at 12 mm lift, and then we had 132 CFM, so that's a decent improvement I think.

    Now I have to get all exhaust ports the same and then we'll see if I try to get back on the bench.

    BTW, the depression figures differ but I am told the bench compensates for that.

    Gustaf
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20201217_intake_1.jpg‎  


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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Update time here.

    I built a simple home-brew flow bench with a U-tube manometer to get all ports "the same". It worked pretty good for a quick and easy build just using the shop vac.

    Then I decided to rip the block out too, and deck it to get more compression. We took 1.6 mm off it so the pistons are very close to being flush to the deck surface. This should give 9:1 or thereabouts (50 cc combustion chambers, small valve pockets in the pistons). Not very high for E85 but a decent start and the head can be skimmed later on.

    Getting the machine work done took some time but I also built the wiring harness for the MaxxEcu. Startup was during the first week of May, and the inital feeling was a happier sounding engine that felt a bit stronger off boost.

    With so much new stuff going on I concentrated on just getting it running on both gasoline and E85 and then let Mattias do the rest on the dyno.

    We started tuning on E85 and he soon reported that it was a lot better than before. Before doing the final tuning we decreased some plug gaps and then settled on a good "street tune" at 1.2 bar of boost. That showed 319 whp and 409 Nm but more importantly 50 Nm more all the way from 2500 rpm to just before 4000 rpm where the new and old figures meet. Now the engine keeps increasing power from 5000 rpm towards 7000.


    Click image for larger version Name:	20210514_18KX_vs_19T.jpg Views:	107 Size:	73.8 KB ID:	86943

    Then we tuned on gasoline to make the flex fuel work. It needed more work on the fuelling than we expected but we ended up at 306 wph and 382 Nm so it's a reasonably strong gasoline engine too...

    I got an oil leak towards the end of the day so the car is not road tested yet, but soon... :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Was there much difference in timing the engine wanted between the two fuels ?

    With the ( relatively ) low CR, was the engine knock limited on the pump fuel at the boost level used or could you optimise it ok without that hindrance ?
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I can check the maps but I recall Mattias saying that the timing was not that much different between E85 and gasoline.

    The old specification (low compression) tolerated 2.1 bar at max torque so I wouldn't say it was knock limited there. I don't think the new specification is either.

    I just took a short test on the road to adjust the brake balance for the upcoming tech inspection. It feels pretty nice :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Short update perhaps - I havenīt remembered to check the maps so canīt say anything about the timing.

    I have hardly had time to drive the car since last post, I made one or two drifting practice nights last year.

    But this last weekend I had some track time and I blew a head gasket.

    Click image for larger version Name:	2022-08-15-08-12-14_20220812_213604_medel.jpg Views:	60 Size:	89.1 KB ID:	88021

    This was at 1.2 bar and after a couple of track stints. A standard Victor Reinz gasket, ARP studs.

    I might have been running a bit low on fuel (it strikes me now...the MaxxEcu has some internal logging, I should check that), it MIGHT have been lean for a short while but I doubt that.

    I put a new gasket on and lowered boost to 1.1 bar for now but will think a bit about options.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    That's odd! Are they water holes that are all torn up - looks like next cylinder was going as well! If they are, I've never seen water / oil pressure push a fire ring INTO the cylinder to fail! A lean condition usually melts things first then gets to water / oil / fresh air. Let us know what forensics turns up LOL!

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    I will have a closer look at the gasket again - I finished the swap at something like 12.30 AM to get to the track next morning :-)

    But the fire ring is pushed out into the water jacket, and Iīm not sure how many laps I did with it leaking - I think the fragmented water passages are from the gasses escaping?

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    That's odd! Are they water holes that are all torn up - looks like next cylinder was going as well! If they are, I've never seen water / oil pressure push a fire ring INTO the cylinder to fail! A lean condition usually melts things first then gets to water / oil / fresh air. Let us know what forensics turns up LOL!
    The fire ring is clearly distorted outwards, blown into and burning through the waterway heading out, hence it has eaten away the composite gasket.

    Not inwards.

    MLS gaskets are the go to on most engines these days, and they work extremely well. Both mating surfaces need to be as smooth as possible.

    Not sure if that follows through on an all iron engine or not, but certainly combinations of iron/alloy, they work.
    Last edited by stevieturbo; 15-08-2022 at 16:34.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post
    Short update perhaps - I havenīt remembered to check the maps so canīt say anything about the timing.

    I have hardly had time to drive the car since last post, I made one or two drifting practice nights last year.

    But this last weekend I had some track time and I blew a head gasket.

    Attachment 88021

    This was at 1.2 bar and after a couple of track stints. A standard Victor Reinz gasket, ARP studs.

    I might have been running a bit low on fuel (it strikes me now...the MaxxEcu has some internal logging, I should check that), it MIGHT have been lean for a short while but I doubt that.

    I put a new gasket on and lowered boost to 1.1 bar for now but will think a bit about options.

    Gustaf
    that looks exactly like the way composite gaskets used to fail on my turbo beemer, its hard to believe that they can do that given the clamp load from arp studs but the certainly do.

    my head gasket issues were cured with a two piece gasket using a copper fire ring in an aluminium carrier, but that was 15 odd years ago. these days i would just use an MLS, even if one do leak it never "blows out" like that unless the whole engines had a huge meltdown

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    these days i would just use an MLS, even if one do leak it never "blows out" like that unless the whole engines had a huge meltdown
    All iron most probably yes, I'd doubt it would ever cause any harm with a failure.

    Engines with alloy, MLS can easily cause it to torch a head or block if there is a failure. MLS are great, but that is one huge negative.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by stevieturbo View Post
    The fire ring is clearly distorted outwards, blown into and burning through the waterway heading out, hence it has eaten away the composite gasket.

    Not inwards.
    Sorry Steve but I was trying to project the undamaged curve of the fire ring either side of the defect and the damaged section appeared to be straightened between them, hence inwards. Like I said its odd as i'd normally expect more damage to the ring before eating away the gasket behind. Whatever though - it's broken LOL!

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Sorry Steve but I was trying to project the undamaged curve of the fire ring either side of the defect and the damaged section appeared to be straightened between them, hence inwards. Like I said its odd as i'd normally expect more damage to the ring before eating away the gasket behind. Whatever though - it's broken LOL!
    I've seen so many different HG failures, I never assume or think anything will do as expected !! I've even seen the steel ring gaskets from Athena that are quite popular, where the ring literally bites into each surface, get blown out and distorted. Which is quite an achievement.

    But it really is hard to beat a good MLS gasket.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    If this one also fails I am not against trying an MLS, but according to what I read I should then also get rid of the ARP studs. I used normal non-stretch bolts earlier with no issues but tried ARP this time. Maybe that is the error... ;-)

    Itīs easy to speak about boost pressures (remember I have been running over 2 bar on these gaskets and standard bolts) but I also want to consider cylinder pressures. Higher compression ratio, E85 and lower boost probably gives higher cylinder pressures since torque and power is higher, right?

    Stupidly I had not enabled logging, so there are no log files to download...

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo build, "new" engine for the Capri

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post
    If this one also fails I am not against trying an MLS, but according to what I read I should then also get rid of the ARP studs. I used normal non-stretch bolts earlier with no issues but tried ARP this time. Maybe that is the error... ;-)

    Itīs easy to speak about boost pressures (remember I have been running over 2 bar on these gaskets and standard bolts) but I also want to consider cylinder pressures. Higher compression ratio, E85 and lower boost probably gives higher cylinder pressures since torque and power is higher, right?

    Stupidly I had not enabled logging, so there are no log files to download...

    Gustaf
    Even years ago there was a lot of hatred towards ARP studs on Cossies ? Not really sure why that would be, when generically they are seen as an upgrade.

    But whether stud or bolt, quality of the fastener itself is at the fore.

    Whether a rock solid stud is best, or a fastener with a bit of "spring"....who knows.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlfVt1wqr40
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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