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Thread: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

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    412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Just spotted this on another forum.
    http://www.vwfixx.com/forums/index.p...ic=25719&st=75

    Hi

    Sorry for the delay for my vw project. I have very very little time to finish it.
    I am busy with customers projects.
    Recently i finish a race car with cosworth NA engine. I will tell u about this project so as to see in action the theories that i told u to my previus posts.
    The engine is ford cosworth NA 2ltr 16v the stock form (90.8mm x 77mm).
    The customer wants the maximum power of this engine no matter the cost.
    The car is race car so we must stay until 1999cc engine displacement to stay in the regulations.
    So the only way as i told u before is to make it revs very very high. I design the engine configuration and what parts would i use. After when finish the theory that i thought i start gothering the parts and some of them i make it special order.
    The result of the project is: 412hp at 11700rpms and 28.1kgr of torque at 9750rpms and revlimit is 12600rpms.
    Its world record of an engine below 2000cc NA.

    Some specs: 92mm piston with 72mm stroke, custom length aluminum rods, supertech special order pistons,
    custom design 4340 billet crank, nicasil sleeves, yellow titanium valves, custom berilium seats, custom billet cams, compression ratio 17,5:1, Haltech e8 managment system. 60mm throtlle bodies, and 90mm exsaust pipe.

    I manage to use the wave sound efect perfect. So i had 1.3bar extra pressure at the intake port and 2.4bar at the exsaust port.

    Here is the dynoplot and some pics.

    http://www.extreme-tuners.com/genpics/escort/dyno.jpg

    http://www.extreme-tuners.com/genpics/escort/engine.jpg

    http://www.extreme-tuners.com/genpics/escort/engine1.jpg

    http://www.extreme-tuners.com/genpics/escort/engine2.jpg

    http://www.extreme-tuners.com/genpics/escort/drysump.jpg

    http://www.extreme-tuners.com/genpics/escort/race.jpg




    Spyros

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    hmm 206 bhp per litre, from an atmo, yb?

    dont believe it myself, high rpm or not, curiously the power/torque curves dont cross at 5,200 rpm either..................

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Actually Graham the curves cross twice, you have to laugh don't you !
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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Go on the atmo cossies !!!!!!!!!!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails greek_dragster_papadopoulos_mkii_01_std.jpg‎  


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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    Actually Graham the curves cross twice, you have to laugh don't you !

    hmm hadnt actually spotted that, shame as im my book such an impossible graph totally rubbishes the engine as it means we have no real idea of what its actually like

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    if i remember right 20 odd years ago when burtons tried to build an ultimate power no expense spared atmo Yb they got 296bhp, so with the passage of time more power i should be on the cards but an extra 116bhp, no way

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    It's running on special exotic fuel so the power is possible i reckon , especially as the UK tuners reckon they're getting 300 bhp from a duratec ( ) at a sub 9000 rpm on pump fuel

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterless View Post
    compression ratio 17,5:1
    Quote Originally Posted by mk1 gaz
    It's running on special exotic fuel
    Diesel?
    ------------------------------------------------
    One day people will stop asking 'Is that bit of your car supposed to be hanging off/leaking/on fire like that?'

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    hmm actualy the power and torque curves do (would) cross at 5250 rpm... just that the power and torque axis have different scales.

    take a look at the 5250rpm point the torque reads about 18.3 KgM which converts to about 130ft-lb which is close enough to the 135PS that the right axis shows.

    basicaly if the left (torque) axis was in lb-ft not kgm and had the same scale up the axis as the power scale, the lines would cross


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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Sport View Post
    hmm actualy the power and torque curves do (would) cross at 5250 rpm... just that the power and torque axis have different scales.

    take a look at the 5250rpm point the torque reads about 18.3 KgM which converts to about 130ft-lb which is close enough to the 135PS that the right axis shows.

    basicaly if the left (torque) axis was in lb-ft not kgm and had the same scale up the axis as the power scale, the lines would cross
    Well spotted, looks a lot better
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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    and best of all , BETTER THAN A CHOCOLATE DURATEC !!!!!!!!!!!

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spyros
    I manage to use the wave sound efect perfect. So i had 1.3bar extra pressure at the intake port and 2.4bar at the exsaust port.
    Spyros
    So is this the equivalent of having 1.3 bar boost on a N/A engine just by playing with the length of the inlets?

    Very clever (although I'm sure other engine builders do this as well)
    GavinR

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Unless his English is making it unclear how would have a higher pressure on the exhaust side increase power??

    She's built like a Steakhouse, but handles like a Bistro

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    I took it as meaning: 1.3bar pressure at the intake port and 2.4bar at the exhaust. Meaning the gases are leaving the head at 2.4bar. In other words 1.3 bar inlet plus 1.1bar exhaust = total of 2.4bar at the exhaust? Would mean a lot of valve overlap.
    Last edited by Quarterless; 30-04-2007 at 23:40.

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterless View Post
    I took it as meaning: 1.3bar pressure at the intake port and 2.4bar at the exhaust. Meaning the gases are leaving the head at 2.4bar. In other words 1.3 bar inlet plus 1.1bar exhaust = total of 2.4bar at the exhaust? Would mean a lot of valve overlap.
    thats what i thought aswell. 1.3bar boost is a hell of a lot from just utilising the ram effect. 0.3 bar boost seems more realistic???


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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Can't add a lot ...but in english money 412 is 406.36 bhp

    and say the dynos out by 10% (not unheard of) thats now 365.72bhp
    and if it was 15% out we have 345.41 ... .. but who knows

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by GavinR View Post
    So is this the equivalent of having 1.3 bar boost on a N/A engine just by playing with the length of the inlets?

    Very clever (although I'm sure other engine builders do this as well)
    correct me if i'm wrong, but 1 bar is atmospheric pressure at sea level.. so that being 1.3 bar would be 0.3 above normal air pressure

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Retromotorsport View Post
    correct me if i'm wrong, but 1 bar is atmospheric pressure at sea level.. so that being 1.3 bar would be 0.3 above normal air pressure
    Yes - but he says 1.3 bar extra pressure, so I'm assuming that's 1.3 bar above normal air pressure
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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    i smell mooo

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Hard to believe that other massive teams have not been able to match that figure with their unlimited budgets unless its a bit, shall we say, optimistic

    Super Touring cars were getting around 320bhp maximum from 8500rpm (not YB's though) so with the extra revs more power should be there but 412 from a YB just sounds too good to be true, no matter what the cost
    Last edited by david_white; 02-05-2007 at 10:53.

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    What fuel + C.R. did the 320 bhp touring cars use then ? Also 8500 revs isn't anywhere near this engines 12600 rpm limit so if they can get 320 bhp at 8500 rpm then surley 400+ is possible with an extra 4000 revs ? Don't forget poxy 1300cc bike engines reving at 13,000 odd rpm make 200+ bhp on pump fuel

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Yeah but bike ports and throttle bodies are the same size as full race yb ports for 200 bhp from 1300 cc. I reckon you couldn't port a yb head enough to flow that much air. Increasing the revs won't increase the power unless you can get more air in. I'm amazed the engine can stay in one piece with such a high compression ratio and high revs. Can't be far off being a diesel

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    It just seems a bit too far to be correct.

    getting it to breathe in that much air to make 420bhp even on good fuel seems unreal.

    You can't compare bike engines to a YB as they are chalk and cheese. 13000rpm is possible on bike due to tiny pistons and stroke which the YB simply does not have. Even with light pistons, there is stil too inertial mass to keep changing direction up and down the cylinders.

    It's sad that we should question this though as if true, is some achievement but would on first sight question the rolling road accuracy.

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Well if its true the car will be winning all its races. Just got to wait and see.

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quarterless View Post
    Well if its true the car will be winning all its races. Just got to wait and see.
    Er, currently lying 7th in Class in the hill-climb championship:

    ΘέσηΟδηγός

    1 Λάμπρος Κύρκος10 10
    2 Μιχάλης Ευθυμίου8,5 8,5
    3 Γιώργος Καϊτατζής7,5 7,5
    4 Γιώργος Κεχαγιάς6,5 6,5
    5 Βασίλης Καλκούνος5,5 5,5
    6 Αντώνης Χατζηβασιλείου4,5 4,5
    7 Σπύρος Παπαδόπουλος3,5 3,5
    8 Μίλτος Κύρκος2,5 2,5
    9 Δημήτρης Τσούργιαννης1,5 1,5
    10 Κώστας Ψιλιώτης0,5 0,5

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    I would however point out that the car runs in Class "E" which is everything that is not Group A or N and therefore includes older WRC cars.

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by GavinR View Post
    So is this the equivalent of having 1.3 bar boost on a N/A engine just by playing with the length of the inlets?

    Very clever (although I'm sure other engine builders do this as well)
    Harmonics. Theres formula's to work it out. Basically you use the longest runners for more torque (lowdown) and shorter ones for high revving engines. As I understand it, you get the 1st harmonic at around 5k rpm which sucks(like a pulse) more air into the head and as a result forces the burnt gases out the other end and the other harmonics further up the rev range. I think this is what he means by 1.3bar inlet pressure. Clever stuff

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Having a re-read of some old posts but this does sound like a powerful high revving engine. maybe not 412bhp

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHBa8ZHPrAYYouTube - FORD ESCORT MK2 - PAPADOPOULOS- VOLOS 2007.

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Interesting.... I remember this one. Even if not the power quoted, still makes for one powerful NA motor...

    Here is some more.....

    Yunalı bir arkadaşa ait Escort MkII nin išinde bulunan 1.9 litre hacminde atmosferik bir Cosworth YB.

    412bhp@11500 ve 211lbft@9700

    http://www.greekdragster.com/images/...kii_01_std.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_07.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_08.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_09.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_10.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_13.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_14.jpg
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...os_mkii_06.jpg

    We are presenting today a separate Escort MKII which runs mainly on sirkoui. We are presenting today a separate Escort MKII which runs mainly on sirkoui. The lucky owner of the Escort is very possible Spyros Papadopoulos of Kalamata. The lucky owner of the Escort is very possible Spyros Papadopoulos of Kalamata.

    "Our goal was to build a motorized system with maximum efficiency by 1999cc, which is the upper limit allowed in a class struggles" says Spyros and continues: "Our goal was to build a motorized system with maximum efficiency by 1999cc, which is the upper limit allowed in a class struggles "says Spyros and continues:

    "The best motors, which brought in MKII context was the Cosworth. So we started and looked for the motors that what would be required to pay the maximum from construction materials and geometry of motors. As the motorized design perspective has to pay more than 250Hp per litre in the form of air. "The best motors, which brought in MKII context was the Cosworth. So we started and looked for the motors that what would be required to pay the maximum from construction materials and geometry of motors. As the motorized design perspective has to pay more than 250Hp per litre in atmospheric form.

    Thus, we designed the geometry of motors can be operated until 13,000 rpm Thus, we designed the geometry of motors can be operated until 13000 rpm without problem. without problem. The materials, of course, chose not exist in trade and we have special construction. The materials, of course, chose not exist in trade and we have special construction.


    The motorized ypokyvistike to 1914cc (92mm x 72mm). The motorized ypokyvistike to 1914cc (92mm x 72mm). The bieles longer than a specific type of aluminum alloy. The bieles longer than a specific type of aluminum alloy. The pistonia Supertech is also a special alloy and resistance until 35m/sec linear speed with 17:1 compression. The pistonia Supertech is also a special alloy and resistance until 35m/sec linear speed with 17:1 compression. The strofalos steel is made with our own standards and geometry. The strofalos steel is made with our own standards and geometry. The valves are titanium, while Supertech ekkentroforoi is also special order. The valves are titanium, while Supertech ekkentroforoi is also special order.

    The supply of oil arrange a dry casings. The supply of oil arrange a dry casings. The tetrapetalouda Our bodies are built, and the system of export (octopus - evaporation). The tetrapetalouda Our bodies are built, and the system of export (octopus - evaporation).

    We use more brain Haltech E8 with sequential spraying. We use more brain Haltech E8 with sequential spraying. As understand there are many features of motors, which, while having great interest, we can not disclose. As understand there are many features of motors, which, while having great interest, we can not disclose.

    In setting the dynamometer, 412hp motors attached to 11500 rpm In setting the dynamometer, 412hp motors attached to 11500 rpm and 28.18 kgr torque at 9700 rpm and 28.18 kgr torque at 9700 rpm with fuel from MotoGP. with fuel from MotoGP. We believe that the motors that is not in final form, and one in the near future, with some changes, we will increase the ippodynami of aspiring to 480 Hp at 12800 rpm We believe that the motors that is not in final form, and one in the near future, with some changes, we will increase the ippodynami of aspiring to 480 Hp at 12800 rpm

    Our objective was to build a motorized global concern that compete mainly very good atmospheric Japanese motors. Our objective was to build a motorized global concern that compete mainly very good atmospheric Japanese motors. Ekmetalleftikame a very large percentage of the speed of sound and the 2 and 4 the impulsive wave. Ekmetalleftikame a very large percentage of the speed of sound and the 2 and 4 the impulsive wave. Of course there is still a small margin, which if the exhaust will overcome 250Hp per litre. Of course there is still a small margin, which if the exhaust will overcome 250Hp per litre. In this case, however, the motors will work marginal and will not be suitable for speeds match. In this case, however, the motors will work marginal and will not be suitable for speeds match.

    In terms of transmission have chosen a isogranazo Quaife with the rear differential also Quaife. In terms of transmission have chosen a isogranazo Quaife with the rear differential also Quaife.

    The level of improvement in the area has risen enough and continues to grow day by day. The level of improvement in the area has risen enough and continues to grow day by day. I think now we have something to zilepsoume from foreign veltiotes. I think now we have something to zilepsoume from foreign veltiotes. I also believe that the level of improvement in Greece, if not the best, one of the best in the world. I also believe that the level of improvement in Greece, if not the best, one of the best in the world.

    Spyros Panopoulos - Spiros Papadopoulos Spyros Panopoulos - Spiros Papadopoulos
    Extreme Tuners - Papadopoulos Power Extreme Tuners - Papadopoulos Power

  30. #30
    Pole Position Decade Plus User M11rf's Avatar

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    They like to say things twice...
    I say, they like to say things twice...

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Can someone let me know how you get 240cfm down each intake port in N/A form as on my flow bench even if you cut the head in half and re welded it I am reasonably sure (unless someone knows some very clever mods) its near, in my most humble opinion impossible, regardless of valve size that you could ever get in the casting. Let alone all the other problems trying to reach the dissy heights of 12000rpm+. I would love to run it on our dyno out of curiousity as I have never seen one make 301hp in 15 years yet regardless of capacity, mods, fuel or rpm. What engine annaliser software was it developed on? I would seriously be interested to know.

  32. #32
    Spanner Monkey justmental's Avatar

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    this does seem a bit ott.
    but then he is runing a race fuel that more than likley has a high octain rating
    and most of these are about 118%octain

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Quote Originally Posted by I.K.Engineering View Post
    Can someone let me know how you get 240cfm down each intake port in N/A form as on my flow bench even if you cut the head in half and re welded it I am reasonably sure (unless someone knows some very clever mods) its near, in my most humble opinion impossible, regardless of valve size that you could ever get in the casting. Let alone all the other problems trying to reach the dissy heights of 12000rpm+. I would love to run it on our dyno out of curiousity as I have never seen one make 301hp in 15 years yet regardless of capacity, mods, fuel or rpm. What engine annaliser software was it developed on? I would seriously be interested to know.
    It would flow 240 cfm intake, just not @ 10" but more than the intakes it would be the exhaust side of the head that would prevent it from making that sort of power or anywhere near that power in N/A form

  34. #34
    Bodger

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    Sorry, yes I did mean at 10". My mistake. And yes, as for the exhaust ports, well.
    The 118 octane thing with the testing I have done on N/A engines is worth about a handfull of hp only.
    But does it run to 12800rpm..... Or did it only get there once ???

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    Spanner Monkey justmental's Avatar

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    must have been vibration upseting the tacho or wired in correct causing it to read double the rpm

  36. #36
    Spanner Monkey jbenny1's Avatar

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    been looking into intake post harmonics, which i think this setup uses. I thought this might help explain it a bit better
    http://www.performanceboats.com/html...d.php?p=492706

  37. #37
    TURBOSPORT SPONSOR Turbosport Subscriber
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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    without doubt intake harmonics can have a big effect BUT not to the extent that it can be responcible for the power claims of this engine

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    I need help. I just have problems with my engine seating. They told me to do beriluim seatings. Can you please tell me from were i can manufature them. I got an escort 1800cc rst. Thankyou
    Last edited by rst1800; 08-04-2009 at 21:04.

  39. #39
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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    I have reached a point where my frustration about this car and engine has become unbearable.
    I am continously hearing about how good the suspension setup is and how many billions of horsepower this n/a cosy makes.
    My ruddimentary knowledge of physics doesn't allow me to believe the power and the pics of the beaten up underside on classic ford, complete with clubman gp4 gear, english axle and mostly std shell deffy any statement about setup. especally when i've personaly seen the car hop about the exit of turns due to lack of suspension travel and not go much faster than the other "super powerfull" greek escorts due to obvious lack of the super power.
    I'm sick and tired of the Greek know it all mentality and worst of all, classic ford is still printing articles with comments about the steering wheel and the bonnet vent, without taking into account the shamelesly absurd statements about the essence of the car, for crying out loud, the last car doesn't even have a brace between the 4link boxes and the historic mk1 has a recessed bulkhead
    "I am always doing that which i cannot do in order that i may learn how to do it"

  40. #40
    Pit Crew Decade Plus User Group4_Mark2's Avatar

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    Re: 412bhp 2.0ltr 12600rpm NA Cossie.

    That steering wheel and bonnet scoop must be worth at least 100hp

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