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Thread: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

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    Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    I have a set of twin dcoe 40's on my 2ltr pinto. Bit of head work not big valve, newmans ph4 276 deg it's made 178bhp apparently although I'm not so sure I thought it might make 155 maybe,

    currently

    idle 45f8
    tube f11
    145 main
    180 air corrector
    32mm chokes
    32 deg full advance on ignition
    i think it's got 175 needle

    this is was what motoscope did when they tuned it.

    cars done about 1000 miles.

    only 2 days after motoscope tuned it I took it to donnington park on a track day,

    i found that that in 5th gear on the straights it was hesitating almost like a rev limiter, It felt like fuel starvation, I went into the pits and turned the fuel pressure regulator up a little, (regulator was set by motoscope) this appeared to sort it that day,

    took on the car out for the 1st time in a while this weekend as I've a drift day booked and booking a track day tonight, it has a hesitation if I give it full throttle between 2000 and about 3000 befor and free if fine, I checked the carbs and they had come out of balance so unbalanced them up but it's still not right although it is abit better

    also after a standing start to flat out it feels to pull well in 5th and then just sort of gives up like there's not enough fuel (or air) and I've noticed it's not popping and banging like it did, well doesn't really at all now. All the idle mixture screws are set to 3/4 turn out but that's how motoscope left it as far as I know.

    ive had all the jets out and there all clean ect, think I'm Gona need a trip to a rolling road to see how it's feeling, either that or nick my dads afr gauge out of his Renault 5 gt turbo.

    i did ask for a print out of the afr from the rolling road which I never got and he kept avoiding for some reason.

    just looking for some advice on if it's a tuning issues or if the carbs are to small, the tuner recommended 45's and 36mm chokes he's was complaint that the 40's were had to set up.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    178bhp on 40's not a chance!

    what fuel pump are you running?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    32mm chokes will prob give around 140hp, try 34's with the right jetting or like you say go to 45's with 36mm chokes.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    178bhp on 40's not a chance!

    what fuel pump are you running?
    I did think the same, that's why I put what I was hoping it would make which is abit more realistic.

    If I'm Gona have to start changing things I might just bite the bullit and go 45's will I loose much on the bottom end as I use it for auto testing?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    32mm chokes will prob give around 140hp, try 34's with the right jetting or like you say go to 45's with 36mm chokes.
    How much of a gain do you think there would be with a slightly bigger choke?

    I have thought about bike carbs as I had them on my last track car and they were brilliant when set and never missed a beat in 3 years.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    No idea as I don't know your engine, will defo give you more top end tho.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Who said it has 178 bhp? As Graham said not a chance maybe 128 bhp.
    Easy change would be a change to 50F6 and check the advance curve.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Who said it has 178 bhp? As Graham said not a chance maybe 128 bhp.
    Easy change would be a change to 50F6 and check the advance curve.
    The rolling road said so, but as per my 1st post I don't believe it.

    You mean idle jets?


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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    ''Carbs hard to balance'' i dont think its balance thats the issue, are you sure this guy knows what he's doing?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    He did a very good job on my last track car of setting up the bike carbs, he's well recommended,

    Could my carbs just be worn out?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    If the cam is a Newman PH4 then I think the 145 main jet is a bit big.
    And change the idle jets to 50F6.
    But that powercurve has me puzzled: the PH4 cam is a low duration high lift cam which gives max power around 5500 rpm maybe a bit higher with a good head and exhaust. The graph says there is good power even after 6000 rpm. Could it be a PH4.5 cam?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    When I bug it all together I dailed in the cam timing with a dti gauge and cam timing wheel.

    Checked and re checked, and it meant my cam was retarded by 2 deg.

    I might just try get my local rolling road this week and get a power run and a print out of the afr. I know these rollers are accurate. Seen plenty of standard cars make near factory figures on them.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Well after a trackday 2 weeks ago, my pinto dropped a valve, well a valve spring failed causing no4 inlet to drop and get bent,

    Whilst rebuilding it / pulling it apart, I noticed after looking at the head it's been running lean on no1 and 2, After rebuilding the head with new valves and springs ect its back together. But it still feels to be lacking abit, mainly I have noticed there is no poping and banging on the over run like there was,

    I've checked for air leaks on the inlet manifold and carnt find any, anything eles obvious to check? I spoke to tuner who did it (my dad was there with a mates car) and he just went, air leak or don't know without looking..

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    I would try another Rolling Road if I were you, how about Boggies? There's no way on this earth you'll have the best part of 150 bhp at the wheels on 40's and std valves.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I would try another Rolling Road if I were you, how about Boggies? There's no way on this earth you'll have the best part of 150 bhp at the wheels on 40's and std valves.
    I'm not claiming to have 150 at the wheels, I've explained this in earlier posts, I know how people can mess with figures and 'trick' the rollers.

    As for boggies, they made a very nice manifold for my last track car bug when I took it for tuning they made a right hash of it, but made a healthy 165bhp (not a ford) but had no power low down and bigger and spluttered,

    I then took it to motorscope (where has done this) and he dynoed it and it mad 164.5 (prity close to boggies)
    After a few hours I had lost 3 bhp peak power but gain a lot of power low down car never missed a beat for the next 3 years,

    Power is irelevent, I'm having running problems, that I think might be down to a leaking inlet gasket, I've ordered some new ones, when the car is running right I will take it to my local rolling road for a health check,

    There was nothing wrong with the tune that motorscope did, when I left it was running great and pulled well, sounded awesome popping banging and the odd flame,

    I think the previous running problems as 1st discribed were caused by a bent valve ( eventually dropped it on track) I think this was done on the last auto test, so I have rebuilt it all and it goes well sounds sweet, just doesn't pop and bang like it used to.

    It could come away from that rolling road showing 50hp but if it drives like it used to I'll be happy,

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    I did n't say you were claiming you had 150 bhp @ the wheels Warrior! Motorscope presented you with a Dyno sheet to say you had 149 bhp @ the wheels on your final power run, a figure that seems very difficult to believe for the specification of your engine.

    Very seldom is a manifold gasket to cylinder head the cause of air leaks unless the inlet manifold faces are badly warped. Have you looked at where the carbs fasten to the manifold with the misab plates. What makes you think an air leak is causing the problem. Have you done a compression test? A competent Rolling Road operator should be able to find the cause of your problems.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I did n't say you were claiming you had 150 bhp @ the wheels Warrior! Motorscope presented you with a Dyno sheet to say you had 149 bhp @ the wheels on your final power run, a figure that seems very difficult to believe for the specification of your engine.

    Very seldom is a manifold gasket to cylinder head the cause of air leaks unless the inlet manifold faces are badly warped. Have you looked at where the carbs fasten to the manifold with the misab plates. What makes you think an air leak is causing the problem. Have you done a compression test? A competent Rolling Road operator should be able to find the cause of your problems.
    I like you don't think the figures I have are right but I'm not chasing numbers I just want it to drive like it did,
    Sorry meant the seals from carbs to the manifold, when I refit the manifold and tipped it back fuel came out of the joint(carbs were on the manifold), I'll do a compression test and see if anything shows up on the 2 that leaked fuel.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Don't for get to renew the Thackery washers or rubber bobbins which ever you have and new nyloc nuts.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    For anyone who searches and has a similar problem,

    I replaced my inlet manifold to head gasket and replaced my manifold to carb gaskets, carb rebuild kit, only changed a few gaskets.

    Found one float level to be low, stripped and cleaned the carbs, found 1 accelerator pump jet blocked,

    All back together rebalanced and set the idle, and runs much better sounds sweeter, idles smoother and pops and bags again on the over run,

    Just the ignition timing to fine tune, and check and dial in the cam again but I think it's very close as is.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Ignition timing is now set to the same as befor and I've dialed in the cam, sounds sweeter again now.


    But my timing is now set to 32deg at full advance as per the rolling road checked and it hits full advance at 3000rpm ish and my advance at idle is about 14 / 16 deg advance. (Vac not connected never used) so my distributor is only giving Only 16-18 degree of Machanicl advance, does this sound right?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Sound like correct to me.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    For anyone who searches,

    When I rebuilt it I used a thinner head gasket,

    It was still hesitating at low rpm's and felt like it was lacking power from 3k ish upwards,

    I changed the emultion tube from f11 to a f16 and was better and sounded nicer / smoother at higher rpm's
    I then changed my idle jet from a 45f8 to a 50f9 and adjusted the idle mixtures and idle, went for a drive and it's different again, pulls hard from low down, doesn't hassitate or bog down from low down anymore and pops and bangs on the over run again,

    Cruising around at 2/2.5 k at very very light throttle it spits back but a little more throttle and it's gone.

    Cars much better now, thanks for all the help.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Are you using late Spanish 40 mm DCOE ?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Are you using late Spanish 40 mm DCOE ?
    There dcoe 40 31's I think off an elan

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    OK, to me it sounds like you are "covering" wrong spaced progression holes by setting the mixture a lot more rich as needed. Is always the case with the newer Spanish version. But my advise on the older versions, don't start jumping using them because prog. holes are also very poor for newer fuels. Later DCOE from ALfa etc are better.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    OK, to me it sounds like you are "covering" wrong spaced progression holes by setting the mixture a lot more rich as needed. Is always the case with the newer Spanish version. But my advise on the older versions, don't start jumping using them because prog. holes are also very poor for newer fuels. Later DCOE from ALfa etc are better.
    Sorry I don't quite understand this, you mean the progression holes are in the wrong places for my engine?

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Usual wrong for any engine using "modern" fuel, reason why I currently avoid these older carburetors. They just don't "pre-mix" as it should today. It just don't mean I can't fix the problem but take quite a lot of work and skills. But don't want to go into details here it's part of my daily job and research to how a carb should be today and don't want to share with the rest of the world (sorry, I already share a lot).

    I just compared you jetting and your experiences while driving, still little problems light load at exact the place where I expect it would be. Reason for me to thick you got a progression problem caused by wrong progression (logic).

    Problem will most usual only disappear once you are over fueling the rest of the setting.
    Last edited by Dyno; 27-03-2017 at 18:55.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior View Post
    Sorry I don't quite understand this, you mean the progression holes are in the wrong places for my engine?
    what he says really, progression holes are a bit like jets they allow fuel into the the engine at specific throttle positions, they can be tuned like jets, but unlike jets they are not easy to alter. which is why there were loads of different variations of side-daft carbs dependent on which make and model of car they were on, ie whey lotus twin cam dcoe had a different type number to 1750 alfa or bda etc.

    but as ondy says, usually if you chuck enough fuel in you mask the problem.

    if you relay really know your stuff, you can change progression drillings, or make them work earlier by filing the throttle butterfly, or if even drilling drilling the butterfly to bring them in later (relative to throttle position) which all effects part throttle cruise
    Last edited by Graham; 27-03-2017 at 19:20.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Correct, and to some degree a one way direction. If you drill wrong, very difficult to recover by even drilling more holes. If you are not familiar with this "drilling", don't. It takes years before you know what drilling will cover something and where in the range. At least, it costed me years, probably others will catch up a lot faster.

    It does not stop with drilling, some plates have different degrees, intention to open or close on a different moment and some are made smaller, also not without a reason. It's learning the hard way, please note on a regular base I have to put carb bodies into the bin because I've made the wrong drilling (and not ones a year, sometimes several a month). Sound like expensive, yes it is but I buy carburetor bodies empty, not full carburetors. And some "wrong drilled" bodies I can recover on other engines with different spec. But usual I know when game is over and know it is "bin stuff".

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior View Post
    There dcoe 40 31's I think off an elan
    If they are the older 40DCOE31 type then these are far better made than the Spanish ones.
    No need to drill extra progression holes. Just a good tune / synchro setting.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Usual wrong for any engine using "modern" fuel, reason why I currently avoid these older carburetors. They just don't "pre-mix" as it should today. It just don't mean I can't fix the problem but take quite a lot of work and skills. But don't want to go into details here it's part of my daily job and research to how a carb should be today and don't want to share with the rest of the world (sorry, I already share a lot).

    I just compared you jetting and your experiences while driving, still little problems light load at exact the place where I expect it would be. Reason for me to thick you got a progression problem caused by wrong progression (logic).

    Problem will most usual only disappear once you are over fueling the rest of the setting.
    Thanks, I understand about you not wanting to go into detail on here if it's your job,

    The cars much better than it was and is not often driven at part throttle, I use it for auto testing, so the full throttle from low down is more imported than part load, also use it for track days and drifting where it's mostly full throttle or nothing,

    I can live with how the car is, I'm going to get it to a rolling road befor the next trackday just for a quick check, I have a selection of different jets ect and some micro drill bits if needed to fine tune, I'll post back with the results.

    Thanks for you help

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    I can make the Spanish perform perfect but takes a lot of work, time and machining.

    If you want to see how a good carb should have been made, buy a Dellorto. Weber production was always poor. Machining was poor, fitting was poor. Also Italian made. I've rebuild at least 1000 Weber carburetors, never seen a good one. One is worse than the other, yes.

    Any production DCOE carburetor can be OK as long as progression holes line up for your application. But in many cases, today, with the newer fuel, results from a none modified carb are getting worse and worse.

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Had it on the dyno this morning and it made 113bhp and over fueling from bottom to top

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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    The 32mm chokes will be strangling the engine, I would deffo look at getting some 34mm chokes for the 40's or even better 45 dcoe's with 36mm chokes.

    I have spanish 45 dcoe's on my pinto and have exactly the same problem with the idle progression holes, big lean spot and popping from the carbs just off idle on a light throttle, a tiny bit more on the accelerator pedal and its ok again.

    Although ive never used them myself, I have heard Dellorto DHLA side draughts have much better progression holes than the weber side draughts.... or maybe another set of bike carbs would be a good cheap solution.
    Last edited by capri dave; 16-06-2017 at 14:19.
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    Re: Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

    Quote Originally Posted by capri dave View Post
    The 32mm chokes will be strangling the engine, I would deffo look at getting some 34mm chokes for the 40's or even better 45 dcoe's with 36mm chokes.

    I have spanish 45 dcoe's on my pinto and have exactly the same problem with the idle progression holes, big lean spot and popping from the carbs just off idle on a light throttle, a tiny bit more on the accelerator pedal and its ok again.
    I have a Ford Focus st170 complete car that I'm running around in, thinking about pulling the engine out and putting itb's on it, and putting it in my Mk2 escort, I'm thinking it will be more reliable 170bhp than tuning a pinto to that.

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    Twin dcoe 40's? Tuning issue or wrong size?

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