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Thread: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Hi folks,

    I’m just looking for some opinions on what I can do with a fairly limited budget, even though I think I may know the inevitable answer.

    Basically, in a nutshell, by brakes are sh!te, and ive no confidence in them.
    In autotests and targa rallies I need to have confidence in the brakes, as we do a lot of very frequent hard braking, and I just don’t.

    There’s no real bite, and it dives to the left or right depending on which way the wind is blowing which is really annoying me. It could lock the left or front wheel first on any given day.

    The current setup is as follows:

    Rebuilt M16 calipers, new pistons, working perfectly.
    Practically new Mintex m1144
    New disks
    OBP hydraulic handbrake (simple in out to the rear setup
    1600 ghia 9” rear drums
    Mk2 1300 non-servo master cylinder (which I think is the achillles heel)

    With the exception of a pedal box for the moment, is there an off the shelf decent master cylinder I can get to replace the non servo one I have?
    I don’t mind having to weld/machine/make a rod to fit the pedal, that’s no problem – but im wondering is there a cylinder available for this purpose ?

    Any other opinions?

    Thanks!

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    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Random locking makes me think the calipers may not be as good as you think ?
    The only effective budget upgrade in my opinion is a remote servo on front only.
    If you can lock fronts you can't improve until you get more grip


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    Last edited by alladdin; 06-02-2017 at 13:02.

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    the brakes are only as good as the tyres before they break traction.. i used yellow EBC pads in std calipers for along time.. they were more than ample for me back then.

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    im running A021 185/70/13 A021's which have fantastic grip normally speaking.
    I dont mind not running a servo , in fact i prefer it. its not that i dont like having to stand on the brakes, the fact is theyre rubbish when i do.

    you reckon the calipers could be acting up?
    obviously im trying to take all external factors into account like camber of the road, damp patches etc but its definitely pulling sporadically to the left or right under hard braking.

    do you recon the master cylinder i have is good enough to provide a better service than im getting ?

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    Racer Decade Plus User mexicotait's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    You know what I'm going to say mark

    Bias pedal box
    I have the same setup on mine and the brakes work well but there is no feel from the standard master cylinder
    I run princess 4 pots on the front of mine and they stop really well but just cant get a good feeling from them
    Compare that to my mate Davies mk1 same setup as mine escept gartrac pedal box and my god its chalk and cheese
    The locking up etc will just be surface change if your calipers are fine
    Hexham and District Motorclub

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    thanks luke in my own head, i think i already knew the answer are you running the same MC as me, standard ford non-servo mk2?

    im going to get it tracked again just to make sure thats not causing the diving, then i guess il have to look at calipers first - i cant see the MC causing that if they're on the same circuit

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User MK1_Oz's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    I spent a grat deal of time working out the brakes on my tarmac rally Mk1 and ended up creating a mathematical model to get the system right.

    To get optimal braking you need to ensure that the MC bore for the front and rear matches the caliper pistons and brake shoe slave cylinders. A bias pedal box is not necessarily the solution to your problem although it obviously makes matching front and rear MCs easier. They are only used for fine adjustment of the brakes such as allowing for the fuel load (weight) changing over time. The correct MC combination should be used on the bias pedal box to get optimal braking in the centred position.

    As said above, the brakes are only as good as the grip the tyres allow but the system needs to be designed such that the rears are close to locking a little after the fronts do otherwise you are wasting braking potential. The locking of the front left or right might just be a factor of the road surface (grip) at the time of applying the brakes and probably not due to the components themselves.

    I am not familiar withe the Mintex m1144 so cannot comment but ensure they have a decent cooficient of friction at the temperature you use them at. You might need to put some temperature stickers on the calipers to know how hot they run but seeing as you say you are doing tarmac rallies I would assume they are used hard.

    How does the brake pedal feel? Hard, soft, long travel????
    1970 Mk1 Escort Tarmac Rally Car

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Thanks for the input! The actual pedal travel/feel is not bad in so far as the hardness/travel, but the feel from the view of feeling what they’re doing is rubbish.
    it feel like its going from nothing to locked wheels with no feeling in between – its very hard to explain, but theres just no feel or bite there.

    Ive a rwd starlet I use for trackdays with 1600 single pot corolla calipers, fast road pads, and using the standard starlet MC and they’d fire you through the window in comparison

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Diving to the left or right can be caused by wear in the bush at the end of the steering rack or worn ball ends or track control arm bushes- are you sure your problem is the brakes -could be worth checking the suspension?

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    Racer Decade Plus User mexicotait's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Quote Originally Posted by onecamohv View Post
    thanks luke in my own head, i think i already knew the answer are you running the same MC as me, standard ford non-servo mk2?

    im going to get it tracked again just to make sure thats not causing the diving, then i guess il have to look at calipers first - i cant see the MC causing that if they're on the same circuit
    Exact same setup exact same problems

    The main problem with the master cylinder is that the springs in it don't let the cylinder have any resting pressure so you have to compress the springs in it before you actually compress any fluid
    Hexham and District Motorclub

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    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    the symptoms your describing do not sound MC related to me ? standard cars (mk2) with good working brakes dont have this issue and have plenty of "feel" ?
    the main issues i have found over the years are lack of braking effort - mainly due to calipers in my opinion.
    i have tried princess ones also to no effect but again they were ancient units stood for years.
    you may have a combination of suspension/caliper issues.

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    Racer Decade Plus User mexicotait's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Id agree with above that one wheel locking etc would most likely be down to tracking or a caliper sticking
    Or warped disc or drum give you pad or shoe knock off
    But still is say you cant get good consistent feel with the standard mc ive driven several mk2s with the same setup and they have all felt the same

    Maybe im expecting too much but i like a near solid pedal
    Hexham and District Motorclub

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    It might be a good idea to put a cheap set of std pads in the front and go from there, that way it eliminates if the Mintex pads are Dicking about.

    Someone I know built a Harrier replica back in the 80's, the brakes were similar spec to yours ohv with std master cylinder without servo. The brakes were always very poor with a longish pedal, no mater how much bleeding we did the brakes would n't improve. In the end we put that down to the master cylinder.

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    drum brake master on discs will give long travel

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    thanks guys
    @alladdin , it may very well be the calipers - but less than a year ago, i stripped the calipers, put new seals in and polished the pistons in the lathe - you can always spin the wheel easily by hand, never binds etc. that doesnt really say much though, they still could be the issue i guess. i was considering a set of the powerlite willwood M16 replacement calipers. alot of people give willwood hassle with warping at really high temps racing etc, but whats others opinions on them for club motorsport use? at 330 odd quid theyre not bad.
    @Luke , my pedal is fairly solid, a little spongy i suppose, but no means soft, it just feels like ive just oiled the disks
    @forest rallying - done that, ive a set of unknown pads i pulled out of a spare set of M16's, and a new set of APEC i picked up in the motorfactors, no better no worse really. my pedal isnt long though, its fairly on par with any non servo pedal. id be happy with the pedal feel if the car actually stopped

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    Racer Decade Plus User mexicotait's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    Look at hi spec replacements they seem to get good rightups
    Hexham and District Motorclub

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    happy new year! so, im back here again.

    after A LOT of dicking about, i still cant seem to get a nice setup - i had started to think it was just me in my head, until we had an event on the 27th and a good friend who would be a consistent top 5 driver with an aweful lot of autotest/targa experience took the escort out for a spin.He commented that the brakes were total and utter rubbish, and didnt know how i got the results i ever did with such bad brakes.

    so, im determined to get to the bottom of it.

    The problem remains of absolutely no feel.......... to wheels locking. nothing in between in terms of modulation or feel.

    current setup as it stands:
    Bias box with willwood master cylinders (new)
    OBP bias adjuster
    rebuilt M16's with new pistons
    9" rear drums - new cylinders
    willwood handbrake cylinder (working savage)
    and my suspect - mintex 1144

    the vital thing to keep in mind, is that with targa's and autotests, the pads have to work as good as possible from cold. i think thats where i am suspecting the 1144's.

    any other ideas without spending a fortune? should i try a new set of standard pads first?

    heres a quick video of one test, and you can see at the end of the test the back brakes lock a good bit after the front which seems to be close enough bias wise

    cheers!


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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User onecamohv's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    anyone care to throw any ideas to the floor?

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    Racer Decade Plus User mexicotait's Avatar

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    I think you might be wise to try a set of standard pads
    From the video you aren’t touching the brakes much so no chance of any warmth

    My pass mintex 1144 work well from cold but the feel isn’t the same as when they are nice and warm
    Hexham and District Motorclub

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    Re: rubbish mk2 brakes - all opinions welcome!

    id agree, 1144s will be no use for what your doing

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