duratec v pinto

[davejupp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibvC8Ats1xE

[markb]

that duratec doesn't look too sad to me!!!
especially considering how well the harris car has been set up for the strip!

[Si_Steve]

Yeha i reckon it held up quite well, also considering rhe years of development the pinto has had compared to the duratec which is relativly new to go faster bits

[mk1 gaz]

The mega-bucks 285 bhp duratec has 50 more bhp than Andy Harris 235 bhp ( 235 bhp at sanspeed so you lot will reckon it's really got 205 bhp then so 80 bhp more popcorn yet it still couldn't keep up with the 1970's power ..........

[sambo]

And i wonder which one is making all that lovely noise?? ...

[RChambers]

Other than the launch he is keeping up quite nicely there (and that's more to do with suspension setup than power) considering the Retro Ford car is a proper road car with wipers, alternator, cage, etc

[mk1 gaz]

Yep he's not quite keeping up even after the launch with 50-80 EXTRA bhp which must surley tip the power to weight ratio in the stripped out , hoosier slicked duratecs favour . I was watching at the end of the strip with Cossymax , Kev16v and a few others and the Harris car was fooooking miles in front and pulling away . Jayon Elvys pinto done the same and he's got less power still , even though the duratec beat him off the start line Jayson still came pissing past it ............

[Retromotorsport]

GAz Gaz Gaz .. you must be a fisherman.. exagerating the truth all the time.. how can someone be " miles ahead" on a 1/4 mile ...

[Retromotorsport]

And as we are talking about the weights of the cars and their relitive powers, let us look into that.

Dave Colledge's car .. caged, full road running gear..

lets say for arguments sake 1000kg (average from experience of cage cars)

so a 1000kg with 280bhp = 280bhp/tonne

The stripped out drag racer with no bonnet, alternator ..drilled holes etc .. we shall say that it is around 650kg ..( Andy pipes car is 750 with cage, extingusher, huge brakes etc)

So 650kg with 230bhp = 353bhp/tonne.

Well there we have it.. Gaz less powerfull car is actually more powerfull..

[mk1 gaz]

Well My PROPER full weight road car weighed 915 kilos with a pinto etc in it so Dave Colleges tasty machine is stripped of interior , has perspex for windows and maybe fibreglass bonnet and boot ( not sure ) and a very light engine so i reckon it's about 850 kilos at the most . Dave's probably about 12-13 stone ( approx 80 kilos ) . Andy Harris car is about 700 kilos and he is foooooooooking maooooooosive at 25 stone ( 150 kilos ) so the power to weight ratio is as follows = The Harris car has 235 bhp at sanspeed ( which you lot reckon reads 30 bhp over ) so the Mountune Duratec should make 315 bhp on it then popcorn: ) . This means that the duratec car has a power to weight ratio of 930 kilos x 315 bhp which is 338 bhp per ton . The Harris pinto has a power to weight ratio of 850 kilos x 235 bhp which is 276 bhp per ton . Obviously we'll never really know how much the real weights are but as you can see it's definately in the duratecs favour .......

[ever88]

force = mass * acceleration. newtons 2nd law

double the force from engine and you double the acceleration.

but if you 1/2 the mass the acceleration increases by factor of 4. so even a small bit of difference in weight makes big difference.

not picking sides!

[trig]

The harris boys are the kiddys when it comes to 1/4 stuff.
But I do think the durtec did very well up aganced the daddy of the strip.

ps Did andy drive his car to the strip???

[mk1matt]

Andys car is obviously the one to beat to become the daddy of the 4 pots. Would of been a shame for the duratec to beat him on its wot? 3rd outing?
After seing the respectable time put down by dave im certainly not disapointed
Just be nice to see if i can beat any standard 2l pintos (except induction mods) with mine
If i ever finish it

[mk1 gaz]

but if you 1/2 the mass the acceleration increases by factor of 4. so even a small bit of difference in weight makes big difference.

Blimey , that's why the circuit race car lot get so upset when i tell them to ballast up their featherweight specials when comparing them to my full weight comfy road car . No wonder they never show up !!!!!!!!

[RETRO_AL]

that red mk2 was my fav car of cf show this year,looked and sounded spot on i didnt even know it was running a duratec
it would be more fair up and a better comparsion against the likes of your car i think gaz

[Retromotorsport]

Blimey , that's why the circuit race car lot get so upset when i tell them to ballast up their featherweight specials when comparing them to my full weight comfy road car . No wonder they never show up !!!!!!!!

Gaz... when was your car put on some scales?

And as for featherweight racecars.. not in this day and age of safety.. the lightest 6 point cage is 35kg .. then theres the other essentials.. extinguisher, transponder(ok thats grammes) bigger brakes (like twice the size) bigger axles, you have one stap on each side.. the race cars have 6 and rally cars have 12.. its very rare for a rally car to go under the 1000kg mark and most race escorts are over 900 kg

Craig Rainers mk2 .. 1160kg

And as for Standard Mk1 weight ..

Super 2 door ...1775lb/805kg
Deluxe 2 door.. 1762lb/799kg
GT 2 door .......1797lb/815kg

So just having a pinto in there means the cars 100kg heavier


At the end of the day Andy does a blinding job of hauling the car down the 1/4 ..
And i hope he dosnt mind you adding a few stone on when it suits .. i'm sure last month you said he was 24stone.. allthough i doubt he is even that.

And Dave has put his money where his mouth is and ran his car up the strip, testing the parts he has devoloped to enable the Duratec to fitted cheaply into an escort.

And this thread will roll around and around like all the threads you are inviolved in..

The answer will only come when the cars in question are both put on scales and both run at the same dyno.. then run down the strip.. with the drivers swapping cars... till that day, may i suggest readers take this thread and the way it turns out as Forum based Speakers Corner thread.. belive in what you may.. for the end of the world is nigh!!!!

[trig]

[mk1 gaz]

And the moral of the story is = It don't matter how much hype the tuners can drum up about the Mazda Duratec engine because until it can outgun the 8V 1970's engines running on carbs + clockwork ignition in a race off the lights then it aint no better !!!!!!! ...........

[Retromotorsport]

And the moral of the story is = It don't matter how much hype the tuners can drum up about the Mazda Duratec engine because until it can outgun the 8V 1970's engines running on carbs + clockwork ignition in a race off the lights then it aint no better !!!!!!! ...........

Like it does at every Sports2000 race .. but then that dont matter as all the cars are the same cept the engines and they have to go round corners*.. so it dont count

*corners, hills, crests, left and right switchbacks .. ahh just like the roads that "streetcars" have to use ..

[Retromotorsport]

Oh and one more thing to put the record straight..

The only person who consistantly states that peters rolling road over reads by 30bhp is you..

every one else say's that the known figures that are avalible says that peters rollers read 12% more than Roush's, HT Racings and T&R's .. and yet those 7 dynos read over TOTD dyno .. so yet again we have to come back to your old engine and state the facts as seen by the members on the forum..

Your engine at Peters .. 180bhp
-12% (21.6) = 158.4
Your engine at T&R .. 156bhp
-6% (9.36) = 146.64
Your engine at TOTD 146.4*

This figure obtained by using Gaz's own example from TOTD
T&R (HT, Rousch) read the same as manufactures quoted figs and TOTD reads 6% less as shown here ........

P.S. a standard RS focus with 37,000 miles on the clock came into my mates dyno dynamics rolling road last week and made 200 bhp instead of the quoted standard 212 bhp

full post....
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showpost...5&postcount=23


Now if we add up all the figures for that engine and average them..
we get 160.88bhp ... and what rolling road is closest to the average .. ahh that would be T&R ..

End of misquotes by Gaz hey

As i said .. this will go on and on and on like all the threads where Gaz verbally slates anyone that dosnt have a 16v pinto or 8 valve pinto .. just remember, before he had the said 16valve pinto.. all 16valve engines where " pants " and couldn't beat the "King Pinto" .. now all of a sudden the YB in N/A form is allowed in there.

Pinch of salt with all post I think.

Now i supose i should really look at the damm video clip at the begining of this thread..

[steveo_mex]

not here to join sides, more interested in the power to weight ratios and the weights of cars.

My car is built to rally"ish" spec and weighs in at 915kg wet including spares + tools onboard.

Now, its only powered by a 1600 xflow which I reckon at absolute best is 120bhp(flywheel).

so, that makes for low bhp/tonne figure!!

might explain why I darn't go near the strip at santa-pod

[zoso11]

GO ON THE PINTO... but in reality, no road going battle between pinto engined escort and duratec powered escort would ever end like that.

This is no disrespect to andy, but he should let me take it up the strip (given a bit of practice) my 10.5 stone piss wet through would knock a good second off that time. Im serious, there all big guys the harris' and can only imagine having a skinny bastard like me behind the wheel would be both front wheels of the floor on take off!

[juiceBoy]

could any one tell me how much my 2.1 pinto weighs, 205 block, cossy crank and rods accralite pitons, injection head, ht1 and a pair of twin fifties? Also it produced 197 hp "7000rpm at sanspeed so what does that work out in real life terms?

[davejupp]

Put the duratec in the harris car bet it would run 10s

[RETRO_AL]

Put the duratec in the harris car bet it would run 10s

that would be a good idea,would be very interesting

[Dan]

i know this is probably asking for it ... but is there a significant difference or benifit in 8v over 16v for a drag racing application (and for arguments sake, we'll try to stick to the strip rather than circuits... and not have the one line answers, id like a bit of factual content and reasoning aswell ),

im guessing there must be a good reason why the fastest 4pot boys are still on 8v. obviously car set up has a lot to do with it (and 30years of development), but with full throttle use im presuming the characteristics of the engine due to the number of valves has alot to do with it aswell

popcorn:

[mk1 gaz]

Oh and one more thing to put the record straight..

The only person who consistantly states that peters rolling road over reads by 30bhp is you..

every one else say's that the known figures that are avalible says that peters rollers read 12% more than Roush's, HT Racings and T&R's .. and yet those 7 dynos read over TOTD dyno .. so yet again we have to come back to your old engine and state the facts as seen by the members on the forum..

Your engine at Peters .. 180bhp
-12% (21.6) = 158.4
Your engine at T&R .. 156bhp
-6% (9.36) = 146.64
Your engine at TOTD 146.4*

This figure obtained by using Gaz's own example from TOTD
T&R (HT, Rousch) read the same as manufactures quoted figs and TOTD reads 6% less as shown here ........


Now if we add up all the figures for that engine and average them..
we get 160.88bhp ... and what rolling road is closest to the average .. ahh that would be T&R ..

End of misquotes by Gaz hey

As i said .. this will go on and on and on like all the threads where Gaz verbally slates anyone that dosnt have a 16v pinto or 8 valve pinto .. just remember, before he had the said 16valve pinto.. all 16valve engines where " pants " and couldn't beat the "King Pinto" .. now all of a sudden the YB in N/A form is allowed in there.

Well Plenty of back peddling here to look at . Firstly i reckon Sanspeeds dyno is about 5 bhp over but YOU reckon it's 30 bhp over on my old 185 bhp Harris pinto engine . So that means that the 285bhp Mountune duratec should make at least 315 bhp over at sanspeed then . As Andy Harris's engine makes 235 bhp at sanspeed then ACCORDING TO YOUR comments over the last year about my old engine then this car will have 200 bhp at the track n road "super dyno" which is obviosly not true because a full monty duratec with an extra 85 bhp can't catch it . Also i never slated 16v engines I SAID that you'll need a very good + expensive one to beat a 200 bhp pinto , WHICH YOU DO . Also I SAID that if fitting/tuning a 16v engine for 230+ bhp then they all cost about the same BUT some will fit cheap and easy and some will not fit and need lots of expensive parts on top of the engine price . I still stand by this but if anyone disagrees then fare enough

[mk1 gaz]

i know this is probably asking for it ... but is there a significant difference or benifit in 8v over 16v for a drag racing application (and for arguments sake, we'll try to stick to the strip rather than circuits... and not have the one line answers, id like a bit of factual content and reasoning aswell ),

im guessing there must be a good reason why the fastest 4pot boys are still on 8v. obviously car set up has a lot to do with it (and 30years of development), but with full throttle use im presuming the characteristics of the engine due to the number of valves has alot to do with it aswell

popcorn:

Most of the fastest 4 pot boys are still using pintos because they go much better than their rolling road figuires will suggest . Until you've experienced a proper stroked pinto your all think i'm mad but they really do go like fooooooooook . I know people will say that the Harris escorts are drag racing machines etc but they are JUST simple standard mk1 escort bodies on leaf springs with no fancy bodywork chopping , no engine relocating , no spaceframes , no tubbed rear ends with big fat wheels etc , just simple normal standard escorts with tasty pinto engines .

[mk1 gaz]

could any one tell me how much my 2.1 pinto weighs, 205 block, cossy crank and rods accralite pitons, injection head, ht1 and a pair of twin fifties? Also it produced 197 hp "7000rpm at sanspeed so what does that work out in real life terms?

In real life terms this will go like fooooook but retromotorsport and his hangeroners will scoff and say it's really got 167 bhp and then wonder why their big bhp 16v engines can't catch you !!!!!!!!!

[Retromotorsport]

In real life terms this will go like fooooook but retromotorsport and his hangeroners will scoff and say it's really got 167 bhp and then wonder why their big bhp 16v engines can't catch you !!!!!!!!!

Now you are really begining to piss me off ...

First .. I have never said that peters rr overeads by 30bhp.. 12% over T&R's is all i will say .. Its people like you that get stuck on numbers.. 30bhp is bollox .. it only fits 2 figures at each RR.

And whenever i state that its 12% i normally state that it dosnt matter as its a tuning tool.. set a base figure before tuning and an after tuning figure is all you need..

Its you who shouts about this rooling road .. that rolling road .. " my 156bhp (really 180BHP) ..

Its YOU that constantly puts other peoples car down, other peoples engines.. and other peoples jobs down..
Like your " mate at TOTB .. You say his rollers test standard road cars, and they never make the manufactures figures.. like i said before .. the manufacturers quote a figure thats low..or every tom dick and gaz would be returning the ST 170s when they only have 159.8.

And as for saying " but retromotorsport and his hangeroners will scoff and say it's really got 167 bhp " well that just Gaz bollox yet again.. as I or no one has said anything of the sort.

What i will say though Gaz is, you have a very Good car, hopefully a very good engine, and i hope you have some very good times in it..

And Hopefully people wont slag you off when its out there like you tend to do with everyone else who has done something different from your ideas.

And as for figures and facts .. the quote of the thread has to be ..

we was watching at the end of the strip.. and the Harris car was miles ahead..

Only in Gazicstan is there miles in a 1/4 mile


Just noticed another " Gaz almighty f**K up .......................

Firstly i reckon Sanspeeds dyno is about 5 bhp over

so by using Gaz's maths .. we have

100bhp at T&R = 105bhp at Peters
200bhp at T&R = 205bhp at Peters
300bhp at T&R = 305bhp at Peters

ermm dont we see the problem there, you cant use a figure Gaz..it has to be a %

like Darrens car 236 @ peters and 211 at HT and 211 @ T&R ... ooh thats 12%

[mk1 gaz]

Now you are really begining to piss me off ...

First .. I have never said that peters rr overeads by 30bhp.. 12% over T&R's is all i will say .. Its people like you that get stuck on numbers.. 30bhp is bollox .. it only fits 2 figures at each RR.


And Hopefully people wont slag you off when its out there like you tend to do with everyone else who has done something different from your ideas.

now now , calm down mr retro . So 12% of 285 bhp = 34 bhp then . So the duratec ACCORDING TO YOU will make 319 bhp at sanspeed ( ) or 84 bhp more than Andy Harris mental pinto , no fooooooking chance . Also people do slag me off on here daily but i don't mind , in fact i couldn't give a monkeys ..........

[ever88]

turn the other cheek guy's

rolling road numbers are just for erections aren't they?

yes they are interesting to read but if your happy with how it goes and your burning all the fuel you put in under load then thats all you can ask of a rolling road session.

or perhaps I'm forgetting something!

both these guys motors look sweet and I'm sure all would agree we wouldn't mind either on the drive.

[zoso11]

Calm down ya pair of nerds, remember the origanal aim of the topic, 2 generations of tuned escorts giving it beans for our enjoyment!!





My photoshop skills are the best!!!

[mk1 gaz]

Love it zoso11 , quality

[Si_Steve]

the scaryest part is thats an actual picture of gaz

[zoso11]

Love it zoso11 , quality

Gaz "the punch" Pinto haha

I did another one but it probably wouldnt of been taken very well, even though it was in total jest












Come on the Harris Power!

[trig]

Gaz noone is saying that a pinto hasnt got its place, just that its not the only engine that can do a 10sec run.

[zoso11]

yeah trigs right.. theres the YB.. which is essentially a Pinto hahahahahaha

[mk1 gaz]

yeah trigs right.. theres the YB.. which is essentially a Pinto hahahahahaha

yes mate YB's , warriors , holbay twin cams , millington diamonds are all essentially 16v pintos and bolt straight in an escort ............

[zoso11]

Thinks we won this one then gaz haha.

Was chuffed to bits when connaught started to make warriors again, thought, il save up for one, then i saw the price and thought FUCK THAT..

And millington diamonds.. mmmmmmmmmmmmmm mates race car has one (autograss class 7) and just wheelies everywhere..

SV2, the 1st into the corner!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxFhRc6kpb4