Hi all can people give me there opinion on weather I should get my engine build by a motorsport company or do it myself bearing in mind I'm no mechanic and have limited knowledge is it do able on my own
I'm not too sure how much the motorsport company will sting me for building my engine but I'm guessing about 3-5 grand or am I dreaming
And how much would it cost me to do it myself roughly
Ta
John
You dont say what engine it is, or what actually needs doing, but as a generalised personal opinion.....
Personally I'm all for doing/learning yourself, more so if you dont have time against you. Its all well and good paying someone to do it for you (Pro's being warranty/knowing its been done right (assuming you pick the right place)), but if anything does go wrong you rely on someone else and fitting in their schedule etc.
Certain bits you'll need to outsource regardless if your lacking equipment (boring out etc) but fitting pistons, measuring clearances etc can all be done with cheap/accessible tools and a good solid bit of reading
It's for a pinto turbo I have atm I have Yb pistons rods rings under piston spray bar 2wd sump and manifold Ak miller one going to put a rx8 5 speed to the pinto too
you could try asking someone a price!
your average pinto rebuild tends to come in around £1500-£2000 assuming its nothing special, 5k will buy you something pretty special.
unless you use a 1600 head, yb pistons in a pinto will give very low compression, and if you have standard size yb pistons you are likely to have another problem, almost every pinto block on the planet is now worn and needs a rebore, meaning std size yb pistons will be no use, unless you have a block linered back to standard size, which is costly,and you will still need to buy a new set of piston rings, so you might as well buy new pistons in the first place
Last edited by Graham; 21-03-2017 at 16:24.
Can u recommend new pistons basically
I want about or as near to 300 hp
I probably will be running Yb management as I have the engine loom And ecu already
What would be your recommendation for the build
Cheers
John
engine wise all you really need is a sound standard spec engine with a decent set of pistons and well sorted turbo, yes a bit of headwork will help as will a mild cam but they are by by no means essentual
Yh suppose the motorsport company will know what to do to get the right power won't they
My best bet will to strip engine then work out my options does that sound sencable?
Ta
John
as i said, engine wise you dont need anything special.
there are shed loads of threads on here about turboing pintos, have a read!
I agree, do a read-up and you can also check my build thread on my "new" Pinto turbo.
As for pistons, you have a choice to make. Standard YB pistons will give low CR like my old engine and that will be bad for spool. OTOH, if you do luck out and have a block with nice bores that suit your used pistons, you can build a very cheap engine that will be quite resistant to mistakes you can make if you're new to turboing. Then you certainly can build the engine yourself as long as the crank etc. is OK too. That engine will need around 1,5-1,8 bar of boost to deliver around 300 bhp. That means a rather large turbo so even worse spool...
If you later want to move further you can spec out pistons to get you a higher CR (I'd say a 39 mm compression height flat top piston would work fine with YB rods).
Gustaf
I read a lot of good advice but in the very first writing I see you have "limited knowledge" and "not a mechanical". This makes me worried, specially because it's possible also your first real engine build.
I would suggest to start with a NA Pinto and learn. Or a low boost 200 Bhp max Pinto. This is already complex enough if your not so familiar with engine tuning. Beware, a Pinto running 1,8 bar of boost to make 300 Bhp must be well made, all parts right, some head work, turbo, mapping etc..... or it will end in tears.
Good advise.
My first turbo "build" was just really a turbo and manifold on a completely standard, non-opened bottom end. It just had a head where the valves were ground with paste, and a K-jetronic injection system. That was a 150-170 whp engine.
Next "build" was just another block fitted with cast low compression Transit pistons, new bearings, oil pump etc. That was my first "engine build" and I ran that one for a number of years until I blew a ring land. Then I build the engine with the YB pistons and rods.
What I'm saying is that you can start gradually and learn, you don't have to have it all at once.
Still, building a very low compression engine with the YB pistons and rods will give you a very robust engine that you have to work hard to kill (if you have at least some feeling for how the engine is running). Even when learning.
I must stress though that a wideband O2 sensor is almost a must, and if you run YB management you can't really adjust anything apart from maybe base timing and boost. That is a real drawback and must be taken into consideration when running the engine.
Gustaf
Yh I'm probably going to send to motorsport firm and if I spend 3-5 hand been told I would get a good engine for this moneyOriginally Posted by onyd
Maybe not a bad idea but please note all work start AFTER you receive the block. From this point you should start fitting turbo, manifold, ECU, and tuning. If your not able to do all this yourself I should more count at 8 - 10K to have it all done right.
And yes, best to start with low boost and learn. 300 Bhp is not the "step in" version.
8-10 k that seems rather expensive for just 300 hp I'll just have a word with the company see what they can work out for me I'm getting all kinds of ideas some say go this route others say different route even 200+ would be great I'm budgeting about 8 grand for the car total needs a bit of rust sorting
Best is to ask what they can get with say 5 grand go from there if not I'll just put it up for sale no point spending 8 k on a pinto I'll just be better buying a real Cossie for the extra 5/6 grand
Don't think I'm to far off when I say 8 - 10 K. Most people stop counting when they got a set of pistons, rods, block bored and a new gasket. Believe me, once you got a complete engine, most of the money is on the outside. In your case, starting with the turbo, manifolds, injectors, decent ECU and a good dyno test. If this guy is not working for free, he will not gain much when he sell this engine for under 8K. I can tell you very honest, if you ask me to build a 300 Bhp Pinto here in Belgium (we have the highest 21% VAT rate and need to "dump" an other 53,4 % Tax on gained money to government) I will not start building this complete engine under 15K, more like 20K. I do know, labor is much cheaper in UK.
Please note there is a huge difference between, 200 and 300 Bhp. I know many people say. OK, 8K, I better buy a Cosworth. But ware, all Cosworth's you find today are worn out, need a full rebuild incl. new turbo etc... Not possible for little money.
I remember Rally-Cross Cosworth engines used to be 50.000 € for a complete engine developing 450 - 500 Bhp!!! And that's 10 years ago. And came from UK
Yh I suppose I gotta get views from a few different motorsport companys see what they can offer me
I second the difference between 200 and 300 bhp.
It's not only the engine itself, but it is also all the parts around it. A 200 bhp turbo Pinto is easily built with for example Saab turbo injectors, Saab or Volvo turbocharger, simple manifolds etc. You can also use a standard size clutch (an uprated pressure plate and disc will usually work fine).
A 300 bhp engine probably needs aftermarket injectors, a larger turbo, better manifolds and it's not easy making a standard Pinto sized clutch work (so you may need either a Transit flywheel or a bespoke flywheel to take a YB clutch).
IMO, the key to a turbo Pinto being a wise move is to learn working on it yourself. If you need someone else to do the work it will be expensive since there are usually many hours used to "invent" stuff.
Gustaf
I would say it's pretty pointless going to a Motorsport company asking for a Pinto Turbo build because they are n't used in Motorsport as far as I am aware in the UK so they'll have little knowledge. There are plenty of good engine builders that are familiar with the Cosworth YB, Julian Godfrey, Tommy Fields,Harvey Gibbs and many many more.
So what is needed for say over 200hp for a efi pinto engine wise
as far as the engine goes i have already given you the answer! i am only talking about the engine itself here, but
a stock pinto will with some boost go to 200bhp, BUT to be on the safe side use forged pistons, you will then have a motor which will stand a far bit of boost, a bit of head work and the right cam will help you on your way to 300
Correct, the weak link in a Pinto turbo is the piston. It will stand 200 Bhp but will be the first part to fail. For 200 Bhp, with the exception of this piston you can use a total standard engine. No need to buy any other parts. Tweaked head, camshaft etc.. is all fine but not needed for this power.
But you need a turbo manifold, return to sump, oil lines, ECU, programming, etc... I hear you say, and many people tell me when I start making price calculations. Than it's better to buy a Cosworth (or any other turbo engine when the make does not matter (like in a kit car)). That's totally correct. The reason is simple, Cosworth IS a turbo engine, you already have the right setup.!!!! The Pinto is NA !!! logic you pay more for a Pinto turbo than a Cosworth. Reason why some people still want to build Pinto turbo engine has little to do with price reductions, it's the culture of running a Pinto turbo. People LIKE Pinto turbo's. And if a Pinto turbo is blowing away a Cosworth it's even more fun.
And building a NA into turbo (budget wise) has also much to do with the engine setup himself. Example, a good 300 Bhp Pinto turbo will cost a lot more as a Honda S2000 blowing 400 Bhp. With the exception of a set of lower CR pistons and some regrind cams, all the rest is fine for 400 Bhp. OK, these people don't want 400 Bhp, they want 600 Bhp + and that's a whole different story, try to find those 50.000 € if you can't do yourself.
I could have bought several cosworths for the money I have spent on my pinto turbo!!
There is some good advice here, and yes, a simple low boost turbo is cheap and fun, but if you want to chase big numbers, figure on big dollars and custom everything.
For eg, I have put the following into the latest build, cosworth 2wd sump, spray bar, oil pump, 205 block, cosworth crank, custom crank pulley, trigger wheel, crank sensor pickup, custom rods, custom forged pistons, rings, turbo manifold, turbo, external wastegate, custom flywheel to suit cossy crank, modified ceramic clutch, custom pressure plate, custom inlet manifold, 70mm throttle body, 1000cc injectors, ls1 coils, knock sensor, ecu, wideband sensor, head, camshaft, adj pulley, big valves, springs, ... and anything else I have missed.
All that before fuel system, intercooler and plumbing, radiator, general machining costs and dyno time.
If I was to do it again, I'd go a cossy and spend the change on the rest of the car, or cheaper still, buy an sr20det package.
Start simple, get it going, experiment, and have fun.
Shaun
You could pop Cosworth head and essentially you will have a Cosworth
People are right about the cost I think my engine alone has had about 8k+ dropped in it, rods, pistons, crank, turbo, sump, breathers, manifolds, injectors, omex ecu, fuel pumps, swirl pots, hoses, gearbox, clutch etc. the list is just endless of all the little bits you need as well, it all adds up very quickly and gets out of hand! And I have not had it running yet!
Like what is said above if you are going to build one future proof it from the word go! You could use a smaller turbo with a potential 400bhp bottom end and head and make 250 or so then once you are confident with it put a bigger turbo on and go for more power. Nothing is off the shelf for a turbo charged pinto so a lot of the budget is eaten up in custom made parts and fabrication work. There is a hell of a lot of knowledge on this forum with regards to this subject you'd do well to read what has been put and then set yourself a target power output and price it up from there, there should be some more UK pinto turbo's on the road this year (mine included) hopefully braking the 350bhp barrier!
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
This is the current position engine:
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
The cost of turbocharging a pinto is down to what you can do yourself and what your prepared to put up with. Mine cost less than £500 to fit up a standard efi pinto. It's about 185bhp. But I have seen almost 400bhp from a standard engine. But it was not made to last just to prove a point and it was on E85.
If you want to do it yourself this is a good guide, although mostly n/a there is a bit of YB stuff in there
http://westfield-world.com/how_to_po..._Ford_SOHC.pdf
http://westfield-world.com/how_to_po..._Ford_SOHC.pdf[/QUOTE]
I'm not against charing information but I do believe, what these guy's have done is pretty illegal. Scanning a book and putting on internet ????!!!!
I agree it can be done on the cheap yes the OP was saying they wanted to run 300 odd bhp, that's not going to happen for £500 and last like you say, if we had E85 in this country then it might be more possible with a bit more money. I'm sure you'd make 300 on a standard engine but I wouldn't like to have to sweep up the mess after it has let go!
Old Fords never die.....................they just get made faster!
Best thing John can do is NOT building a 300 bhp Pinto but trying to have fun with a 185 - 200 Bhp Pinto. These kind of Pinto's can be build from almost standard engines, R5 GT turbo carb, DMTL, or anything else, tweaked fuel injection etc.. This way you can learn a lot and if it go wrong you don't loose a massive budget.
If you try to build your first engine and want 300 Bhp, different scenario's can happen. You drop out of money midway (best option), you try to do all yourself and loose the engine before it's finished (and can't build a second one because out of money) or you do make it to the end but have paid a lot of money to others building and tuning your dream. The last option will need a budget as I already calculated.
The best school for turbo engines, start with a low pressure low budget setup. Believe me, a 180 Bhp turbo Pinto is already a lot of fun to drive.
So what item will I need to getvabout 180 /200 hp atm I have the following
Yb rods pistons rings bearings 2nd hand
Yb ecu and engine loom
Log manifold
Garrett t3 turbo
Rs500 intercooler
2wd cossie sump
Yb oil pump with under piston spray bar
And sensors for yb engine
I will be adding a rx8 gearbox 5 speed but have a type 9 atm will be getting updated clutch ect
Car has xr4x4 rear axle and 2wd cossie brakes
Still thinking of steering rack manual , quick rack or power steering
If this is a good start to 180+ ill get her started as soon as pos
For 180 Bhp
Standard engine, +/- 5 - 600 Mbar boost, turbo (T3 Cosworth, Volvo 240, Escort RS turbo etc...), exhaust manifold (anything what can fix the turbo to the engine). A way of adding some extra fuel into the system(small ECU that can fire 4 extra injectors in the standard injection system), modified carb or Renault turbo carb. That's it, keep it simple. Weakest point will be the piston. At this level op boost, don't worry to much about ignition retard, it will be no more as 1° if CR is +/- 8,5/1. So just set ignition at the latest point.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks