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Thread: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    OK, I do believe there will be people, me included, willing to think with you, trying to solve your issues as well but the way the info came was very confusing, at least to me, and probably a lot others could not follow up the logic anymore.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    About no boost under 2500 RPM, if I see the power of you engine, it is no longer a road engine anyway, the turbo must be very big and for the same reason normal it can't make boost very low. There is always a compromise between power and low end torque. Road engine or race engine. This compromise has to be made.

    Second, your camshaft may vary from the original profile and this will not help much for low down torque.

    I think it would be beter to start a new topic, explain how the engine has been build up + all info and try out's you already made.

    By accident, I'm just building a Cologne V6 2600cc engine with turbo. My turbo pressure will be between 500 - 700 Mbar. That's what I call a road engine. It should end up reliable, easy to build, economic on fuel and make 150 and 170% of the original power.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    About no boost under 2500 RPM, if I see the power of you engine, it is no longer a road engine anyway, the turbo must be very big and for the same reason normal it can't make boost very low. There is always a compromise between power and low end torque. Road engine or race engine. This compromise has to be made.

    Second, your camshaft may vary from the original profile and this will not help much for low down torque.

    I think it would be beter to start a new topic, explain how the engine has been build up + all info and try out's you already made.

    By accident, I'm just building a Cologne V6 2600cc engine with turbo. My turbo pressure will be between 500 - 700 Mbar. That's what I call a road engine. It should end up reliable, easy to build, economic on fuel and make 150 and 170% of the original power.
    What manifold are you using on 2600 V6 to make it work? And how do you define road engine. My last engine gave little bit over 400bhb with 1.5 bar boost and I drove it 60.000km and then swapped it this new one because it was easier to build new one from scratch then
    to modify old. My old engine is still intact just throw it to engine bay and keep driving. And big turbo? Ummm It is T3/T4 hybrid. 56mm compressor and I think exhast was 58mm Ar. 0.64 This one is too small because even though I have 3" exhaust rpm won't reach what was designed.
    The cam should be working up to somewhere like 6700rpm but now it lags to 5800rpm. Camshaft is pretty mild in my mind, but depends what to compare. I have a friend that have Pinto, that has 2.7 bar boost with 290 degree camshaft making something like 950bhb. And I would call that more like racing engine, since it is one quarter smaller and makes double the power.

    Did 2.6 have same bore than 2.8 but shorther stroke or was otherwise? (Do you have something about your project here somewhere? Hard to find anything here... I am new one here).

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    The 2,6 ltr does not have the same bore as the 2,8 ltr, nor as the 2,3 ltr. That's all I know because I had 6 made at DynoPerformance Greece. Don't know anymore what stroke it has.

    The engine has a 2,3 ltr carburator manifold (and reason why we thought it was a 2,3 ltr not 2,6 ltr). The manifold is not a 100% fit with the 2,6 ltr, some water channels are difficult to get sealed. Inlet ports are the same. I'm using 38 DGAS carburetor, modified for turbo and Cosworth turbo but 0,63 exhaust.

    With the exception of the turbo, a set of forged pistons, a modified carburetor and a dizzy with boost retard, the engine is standard. And at the end this is what I call a "road" engine.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    About the line, where is it road engine and where is it rally / race. This line is indeed never specified but I do have my own feelings where one stops and the other comes in. Same for my camshafts, I have a selection what I call road, rally and race.

    For example, any correct build up Pinto running over 50 Bhp is no longer a road engine. I feel camshaft needed to get over 150 Bhp have too much lift at tdc. I don't want to go into details but to me too many drawbacks start. Fuel consumption and overal reliable of engine etc..

    So your 950 Bhp Pinto is not a road engine to me. More like a hand grenade with the safety pin already taken out.

    About you engine, you have answered this question already yourself, it's not running well under 1600 RPM. Almost sure the camshaft seems to be the problem here. Any road turbo should be build with standard camshaft or one with even less lift at TDC as original.

    I'm not saying you don't have a brilliant engine, just not an engine I would be willing to build for a customer as a road engine
    Last edited by Dyno; 29-12-2020 at 17:42.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Of course, it should have been any Pinto over 150 Bhp, not 50 Bhp
    Last edited by Dyno; 29-12-2020 at 19:33.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Of course, it should have been any Pinto over 150 Bhp, not 50 Bhp
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFiXbN_Tdco Thats the pinto I was talking about. 2.5l pinto hybrid.
    This guy is normally there too , like last summer.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsBOUJ5MQrI (This one is also street legan registered 2.0och with T04,registerplate in Finland is T04 also)
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPV91eWLVEOh-nTQuk1
    This guy is also worth to watch 2.4l Opel Manta engine. (this is not really street car anymore but, could be registered with lowered boost)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Ny63wClog
    This one is totally street car seen him in cruising night.


    I am using V6T21 kentcams camshaft from burton power. Not grinded or anything in my V6.
    If you ask me it is quite mild camshaft. https://www.kentcams.com/part/V6T21
    There is also V6T2 carburetor camshaft 1500-6500 but It has some problems dunno what but they said that V6T21 is better in my case.

    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPVgws7...Mv5qN?e=8H4a4u
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPV_GJZlTnepqN3AxyY
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPV_GCdz5YFLlPZg8gz

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Of course, it should have been any Pinto over 150 Bhp, not 50 Bhp
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFiXbN_Tdco Thats the pinto I was talking about. 2.5l pinto hybrid.
    This guy is normally there too , like last summer.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsBOUJ5MQrI (This one is also street legan registered 2.0och with T04,registerplate in Finland is T04 also)
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPV91eWLVEOh-nTQuk1
    This guy is also worth to watch 2.4l Opel Manta engine. (this is not really street car anymore but, could be registered with lowered boost)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0Ny63wClog
    This one is totally street car seen him in cruising night.


    I am using V6T21 kentcams camshaft from burton power. Not grinded or anything in my V6.
    If you ask me it is quite mild camshaft. https://www.kentcams.com/part/V6T21
    There is also V6T2 carburetor camshaft 1500-6500 but It has some problems dunno what but they said that V6T21 is better in my case.

    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPVgws7...Mv5qN?e=8H4a4u
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPV_GJZlTnepqN3AxyY
    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPV_GCdz5YFLlPZg8gz

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Sorry, can't open all these links takes too much of my time but form what I see in the first one, we are not talking about road engines. And the information about these engines will have no positive note on the engine we where talking about in the topic

    But seems like they have nice engines

    About the camshaft, no idea how well this is working in a high boost turbo engine. Usual you want a special profile with little lift at tdc. For road engine best cam is the one you already have

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    sorry to me none of them are street cars.

    a street car is one you could happily drive every day and take your grandma to the shops in.

    i have the same argument when people say HT1 is a street cam because people do drive on the street with them, yes some do, but also many cant live with such a cam on the road, not everyone want to change down 2 gears and rev to 6000 rpm to over take a milk cart or dust bin lorry

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    same here, there is no written line about where street cams / engine stops and where rally / race begins and will be for all different but as general rule, the engine should start making torque at the same level as original.

    The first mods (if you do it right) will give the engine a higher torque number as standard + the engine will have more power. At the end of this line (faster end faster cam and other mods) we will start loosing torque in the lower revs compared to the standard torque curve. This is the point where I feel road is going over into rally and finally end with race.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    I might have lost some of torque also because of roller rockers and new engine geometry. I have longer rods and lower forged pistons with bigger piston pin. Also the billet 6,7kg flywheel also lower low rpm drivaility.
    They balanced my engine internals up to 9000rpm (though I won't never be reving over 7000rpm). They took some weight off from crankshaft.
    Last edited by Vermilion; 31-12-2020 at 11:28.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Just a side note, Vermilion is from Finland and the Finnish definition of a "road engine" or "road car" is a bit different :-)

    Back when I used to work on turbo V6's with my friends, we ended up running very high advance figures off boost, to get the engine to really respond and be driveable. The 2.8 we ran, that had the US low compression (8.2:1 ISTR) pistons and a single Holset HX35W, and a "small" Nisse Hedlund cam was very driveable off boost but I think we had something like 40-45 degrees of timing there. Maybe overkill but that was actually a nice mannered road engine (and still ran mid/high 12s on the strip with street tyres, in 2002).

    Gustaf

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post

    Back when I used to work on turbo V6's with my friends, we ended up running very high advance figures off boost, to get the engine to really respond and be driveable. The 2.8 we ran, that had the US low compression (8.2:1 ISTR) pistons and a single Holset HX35W, and a "small" Nisse Hedlund cam was very driveable off boost but I think we had something like 40-45 degrees of timing there. Maybe overkill but that was actually a nice mannered road engine (and still ran mid/high 12s on the strip with street tyres, in 2002).



    Gustaf
    agree my bmw turbo engine ran 40 plus degrees of advance off boost low down

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    agree my bmw turbo engine ran 40 plus degrees of advance off boost low down
    ...and that's why, IMO and IME, a programmable management system is so important on a turbo engine. The ability to adjust the timing according to load is really what transforms the engine.

    Gustaf

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