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Thread: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

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    2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    A mate has just had a 2.9 V6 running a twin 40 Weber on the Dyno in my opinion he had a good result
    190bhp at 5700 and 200Ft/Lbs at about 4300
    The torque curve was pretty flat
    He of course had high expectations and some of the expectation may have been the bhp claims of other drivers in the series.
    The V6 Super rods run the 2.9 with a 2.8 carb inlet and can run the 38 DGAS or the 40 DFAV or DFI... I think. He was running the 40 DFAV

    What is a reasonable expectation of bhp & torque for this engine for oval racing?
    What little tricks can make a difference

    one more thing they run a distributor which has a 2.9 bottom piece and a 2.8 top it was set to 28 degrees max advance but the best power was found at 39 degrees on BP Ultimate.
    less than a degree either side of 39 and the power dropped off

    i was surprised it needed 39 degrees

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    ignition advance does sound a lot, although the chambers are big and open, and a carb 2.8 inlet will be strangling the engine with regards to air flow, so both those would increase advance requirements, it may also be the crank pulley timing mark is a few degrees out so actual advance is a little less.

    either way the power output sounds healthy, bearing in mind an injected 2.8 made a true 150bhp, carb was 135, the 2.9 only had 150bhp, so 190 on a carb manifold sounds strong to me

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Thanks for that, the standard figures put it in to perspective
    I to thought that the marking of TDC may be out with a final advance that high, not a big deal as it can be checked and redone
    More of a concern was how sensitive the engine is to exact timing

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by snapper1 View Post
    More of a concern was how sensitive the engine is to exact timing
    in my experience the engine is right on the compression limit the fuel will stand

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    190 Bhp sound very well to me if you are running one twin choke carburetor.

    39° and full power on BP Ultimate, 38° or 40° and power went off ? Sure this operator was not confused somewhere? 39° sound like BP Ultimate is straight Methanol.

    I've tested some "better fuels" in the past and seldom needed a single degree more or less advance for making full power (some could stand pinking very long but power did not raised). 39° is a number I've only seen on some rare antic engines and on some very bad engines. The Ford V6 combustion chamber is not bad enough for 39° and the power is also way to high for being a bad engine. Sure it was not 39° ?

    And one degree on and one of make a drop. That's fast but seen this as well but rare. Usual you see less reaction if you add more. 2 degrees less, with a correct tuned engine must be a drop because we tune minimum best timing. One degree should already give a drop. But adding 2° usual does not unless the CR is high. In this case, again with 39° it can't be high CR.

    Strange

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    BTW, you set advance at 28° instead of 39° for max power. What was the drop in power by rejecting 10° ? Should be a lot. Are you using your timing light in steady mode and watching the numbers on the pulley of have the light calculate the advance and flash at TDC mark? I prefer not to have the timing light calculating the degrees because it's a time calculation in function of RPM and can vary quickly.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    There are many unknowns as the engine came straight from the builder and as it's a friends engine I do not know the build specifications, like you in trying to analyse from incomplete data.
    The Dyno was run by a known engine tuner.
    Yes he did use a programmable strobe light
    The car would not drive off the trailer and would not take any load.
    First thing the operator did was to check the engine and warm it up slowly then adjust idle, then get base figure for engine, change jets as engine was vey lean.
    He set AFR a little rich and discussed a problem with rear cylinders on the V6 when racing on oval circuits can go lean.

    The race car owner wants reliability after having had 2 stock engines break at early attempts to race.

    The first power run after a safe AFR was set gave about 155bhp the final figure was 189.4 bhp with 199.8 Ft/Lbs
    Throughout the session there was talk of other available carbs and another racer who came along is going to test with all 3 carbs later in the year.
    Port matching the manifold and some other work was also discussed and the racer is going to source some more heads and manifold.
    There are tight limits on what the Super Rod formula allows.

    Last bits from memory was that the engine has forged rods and reved to 7300 but peak bhp was at 5718 rpm

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    All sound very common and normal.

    Only, setting the ignition at 28° while full power was at 39° and even 1° less was making less power. Still wondering how much power there was lost by cutting back more than 10° ? I can understand he want to be save but if you make full power at 39°, it will nog longer be safe if you cut back 11°. It will overheat the exhaust valves and put a lot of heat into the water system on the exhaust side.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    To clarify
    Engine was set at 28 degrees by engine builder
    After Dyno engine set to 39 degrees and gives best power
    Power difference was about 30bhp

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    OK, now I got it. I thought they returned to 28° and left it that way. Would have been horrible. 30 Bhp would be a normal "lost" of power if you back off so far.

    Still a lot. I do know on rolling road they usual come with an advance number higher as what I find on my dyno to be correct. Specially in a fast "run" mode (a few degrees, not 10°). The timing lamp can also calculate a small error and timing disc can be out slightly (reason why I only use them fixed and set marks at the pulley). I would think, 34° would have been max if CR is correct and a good engine (and it is a good engine).

    They did not forget to disconnect the vacuum advance while setting the ignition (if any is still in use) ?

    OK, if full power is 39° it's 39°.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Vacuum detached for racing and Dyno runs
    I agree timing light, timing mark could be out
    34 degrees sounds more reasonable.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Well just to give you an example. This week I've dyno tested an old Vauxhall 2300 engine (like in the Bedford CF). Car has been sold to DTV Belgium many moon's ago. I had it on the dyno before but carb was impossible to tune and no torque. Wanted to fix both problems in one motion and fitted one of my special "modern" profiles. Torque raised from 115 Nm to 168 Nm at 2000 RPM and most important I could tune the carbs as written in the carburetor books. Piece of cake.

    Max torque was 230 Nm, before 211 Nm but max power is still low, 152 Bhp (same as with the original cam but 400 RPM earlier) but seems like these numbers where normal those days . I call this a bad engine and engine did not made max power before I dialed in 38°. I have a feeling the CR may a little low but I have no idea how much it is.

    This ignition advance number is normal for a poor Bhp (and for sure not high CR) engine. But I can't say your V6 is low power, I feel high power so very interesting it need so much advance. We learn every day.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    There is a few 2.9's making around the 230-250bhp mark.

    They all use the Kent v6T46 cam which is a must to be honest.

    One example makes 254bhp at 7000rpm on 35 advance. Peak torque is 225 ft/lbs at 4500rpm at 36 advance.

    Running 3 x 40 DCNF's

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Yes, 3x 40 DCNF is an other story and best setup you can create with this engine. I don't have enough experiences with this engine to compare but still surprised they need that much advance. Compared to other engine with look-o-like heads and bore / stroke it a lot more as what I'm used to see.

    On the other had, V8 engine (bores over 100mm) usual also need 34°

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    They love advance.

    Even boosted making over 400bhp 25 of more advance is not uncommon.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Old post I know but.... my engine before i had turbo'd hit 42° advance in places on my N/a map. this was by a well respected dyno owner.
    On WOT between 3000 to 6000rpm it is 38 to 39.5° adv
    engine specs were
    185Bhp - 205 ft/lb limited to 6200rpm but power was wanting to continue through. (needed to strengthen block first before going higher )
    2.8 cologne
    std bottom end
    kent cam sports R
    mild ported head
    2.8efi manifold
    megasquirt Ecu.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    I don't think there is anysafe way to test what is suitable ignition advance, or is there?
    I am running my V6 with 19 degree ingition advance. (max power area)

    Those ignition advances sound quite high...

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    I don't think there is anysafe way to test what is suitable ignition advance, or is there?
    I am running my V6 with 19 degree ingition advance. (max power area)

    Those ignition advances sound quite high...

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    I see this thread has been re born.
    Back in 97,98,99 John Toovey was at the top of his game with these engines.
    The V6 Eurocar (mondeo) racing series ran these engines.
    Toovey race engines supplied most of the grid.
    2.9 V6 with 2.8 inlet conversion , running a single downdraught twin choke running a fixed ecu .
    From my poor memory, we ran 250 bhp fairly reliably.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by piekey View Post
    I see this thread has been re born.
    Back in 97,98,99 John Toovey was at the top of his game with these engines.
    The V6 Eurocar (mondeo) racing series ran these engines.
    Toovey race engines supplied most of the grid.
    2.9 V6 with 2.8 inlet conversion , running a single downdraught twin choke running a fixed ecu .
    From my poor memory, we ran 250 bhp fairly reliably.

    It would be nice to see videos of this serie.
    I think weakest point of these engines are pistons, then rods, then crankshaft. Not sure how much needed to crack these blocks.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by piekey View Post
    I see this thread has been re born.
    Back in 97,98,99 John Toovey was at the top of his game with these engines.
    The V6 Eurocar (mondeo) racing series ran these engines.
    Toovey race engines supplied most of the grid.
    2.9 V6 with 2.8 inlet conversion , running a single downdraught twin choke running a fixed ecu .
    From my poor memory, we ran 250 bhp fairly reliably.

    It would be nice to see videos of this serie.
    I think weakest point of these engines are pistons, then rods, then crankshaft. Not sure how much needed to crack these blocks.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermilion View Post
    It would be nice to see videos of this serie.
    I think weakest point of these engines are pistons, then rods, then crankshaft. Not sure how much needed to crack these blocks.
    im far from expert on these engines, but if i recall correctly the rods were ok, just didnt like forced induction, and its one of very few engines which has a high chance of snapping a crank when ground undersize

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by piekey View Post
    I see this thread has been re born.
    Back in 97,98,99 John Toovey was at the top of his game with these engines.
    The V6 Eurocar (mondeo) racing series ran these engines.
    Toovey race engines supplied most of the grid.
    2.9 V6 with 2.8 inlet conversion , running a single downdraught twin choke running a fixed ecu .
    From my poor memory, we ran 250 bhp fairly reliably.
    strong power, 100bhp up on standard on a more restrictive intake, i think they ran a 40DFI5 carb had 32mm chokes, which whilst originally used as multiple crabs giving one barrel per cylinder on Ferrari engines, was also used as an Essex v6 group one carb and i think gave similar power to that of the eurocar 2.9

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Oh I thought it likes forced induction! And if you don't go to over 7000rpm and have engine displacement lower than 3 litre stock crankshould be okay. Essex engine had very serius problems with cranks. I used to have one and reving over 5000rpm would kill it.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermilion View Post
    I don't think there is anysafe way to test what is suitable ignition advance, or is there?
    I am running my V6 with 19 degree ingition advance. (max power area)

    Those ignition advances sound quite high...
    ????? there is a very reliable way of finding the best ignition timing. Just put the engine on a dyno and measure maximum best timing by making slow full pull run's or full power at fixed RPM and read the torque number

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermilion View Post
    I don't think there is anysafe way to test what is suitable ignition advance, or is there?
    I am running my V6 with 19 degree ingition advance. (max power area)

    Those ignition advances sound quite high...
    ????? there is a very reliable way of finding the best ignition timing. Just put the engine on a dyno and measure maximum best timing by making slow full pull run's or full power at fixed RPM and read the torque number

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    ????? there is a very reliable way of finding the best ignition timing. Just put the engine on a dyno and measure maximum best timing by making slow full pull run's or full power at fixed RPM and read the torque number
    that was what i thought, although i think you meant to say "minimum best timing"

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Correct Graham, minimum best timing for max power (I did not wanted to write MBT because I was sure I needed to explain later, but went totally wrong)

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    BTW, "maximum best timing", that's how they did it in the '70thies. Advance the ignition until you hear pinking and set little back

    Well, a lot out there still do it this way !!!

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    BTW, "maximum best timing", that's how they did it in the '70thies. Advance the ignition until you hear pinking and set little back

    Well, a lot out there still do it this way !!!
    remember that well, in fact where i started out it was advance it until it kicked back on the starter and retard it a bit, job done, good knows how much advance everything used to have, luckily 4 star was slower burning!

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Indeed, it was not before dyno's became a normal standard in tuning auto-cross engine the number of blown engine decreased dramatic.

    In a normal race pre-dyno, 25% of the engine on track went bang. After-dyno these number decreased to almost zero

    Must say, it was very spectacular to see all these blown engines, it was part of the entertainment !!!

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    ????? there is a very reliable way of finding the best ignition timing. Just put the engine on a dyno and measure maximum best timing by making slow full pull run's or full power at fixed RPM and read the torque number
    Read then from this
    https://gyazo.com/0a3cae51c6ebe56330ee25931add6ce6
    Is 19,5 maximum load advance close enough or more advance.
    My dyno didn't dare to give more advance. Just asked how much advance they normally use on these? ( I said like the hell I know, and then advance was left on 19,5 degrees max)
    When we rised the advance from 18 degree to 19 degree it have aprox +25hp.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    When we talk about let say 32°, it means the max advance when the dizzy is totally advanced, usual round 3500 RPM or higher. With 18°, I guess you are talking about ignition advance at idle ???

    Honest, I should be very surprised to see you got max power at 19° all in. You would be running less than 0° advance at let say 1500 - 2000 RPM unless you got a fixed distributor with no advance. Unless you compression ratio is sky high, it's not possible. Probably you TDC mark is not correct on the pulley.

    Second thing that even surprised me more, 25Bhp plus with only 1 degree extra ignition? Sounds like a lot to me. If 19° is the right setting 1° less may give you maybe 2-3 Bhp less power. I always use steps of at least 2 (or even 3° when I'm in a starting fase) to check what direction the ignition is wanting to go. I guess something out there is moving where you don't have control over or the dyno operator is making mistakes.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    OK, I must have missed something but the graph is very unclear. Do I read 500 Bhp???? this is a very high tuned turbo V6?? That makes a whole different. I thought we where still talking about a 190 Bhp V6 engine.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    OK, I must have missed something but the graph is very unclear. Do I read 500 Bhp???? this is a very high tuned turbo V6?? That makes a whole different. I thought we where still talking about a 190 Bhp V6 engine.
    me too!

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    OK, I must have missed something but the graph is very unclear. Do I read 500 Bhp???? this is a very high tuned turbo V6?? That makes a whole different. I thought we where still talking about a 190 Bhp V6 engine.
    Not very highly tuned 2.8 V6, not even reving over 6000rpm and not even 2 bar boost. Dyno peaked 1.779bar (too small wastegate, now bigger but dont have dynoed yet, something like 1.55 bar max torque)
    Idle ignition is something like 12 to -16 degree advance.

    Can't you zoom the link image?
    Last edited by Vermilion; 29-12-2020 at 08:52.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Vermilion View Post
    Not very highly tuned, not even reving over 6000rpm and not even 2 bar boost. Dyno peaked 1.779bar (too small wastegate, now bigger but dont have dynoed yet, something like 1.55 bar max torque)
    Idle ignition is something like 12 to -16 degree advance.
    Now I can't follow up anymore, you show a graph with 500 Bhp but it is not even dynoed yet?? Where is the graph coming from and what sense does it have in this conversation?

    BTW, 1,7 bar is quite a lot for a road engine. Low boost (not highly tuned) here means 500 - 700 Mbar.

    With a turbo advance will be taken back under boost so without the whole ignition map or the dizzy advance and boost retard numbers, I have no idea what I can say about it, it's like I'm blind and you ask me do I have to go left at the next junction.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    https://1drv.ms/v/s!Ak0ev910-aPVgYBAI3CeNzsZTeoSIw

    Cruising speed are ignition advances are something like 25-35. (No boost under 2500rpm)
    Low end torque is though quite bad, Can't really drive under 1600rpm....

    edited:
    Last edited by Vermilion; 29-12-2020 at 08:58.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    double post...
    Last edited by Vermilion; 29-12-2020 at 08:58.

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    Re: 2.9 V6 Super Rod engine

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Now I can't follow up anymore, you show a graph with 500 Bhp but it is not even dynoed yet?? Where is the graph coming from and what sense does it have in this conversation?

    BTW, 1,7 bar is quite a lot for a road engine. Low boost (not highly tuned) here means 500 - 700 Mbar.

    With a turbo advance will be taken back under boost so without the whole ignition map or the dizzy advance and boost retard numbers, I have no idea what I can say about it, it's like I'm blind and you ask me do I have to go left at the next junction.
    It was dynoed but it ended because of oil leak, engine was lean on some rpm areas, and wastegate was too small (28mm and last winter it was changed to Tial 44mvr and should go to try a new dyno time)

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