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Thread: Help with the differences (suspention)

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    Help with the differences (suspention)

    I'm looking to sort my suspention out on my Mk2 track car,

    it has R.D 2.25 x 10.5" 220lb on coilovers on the front, with bilstine inserts (apparently I've not had them apart) and a anti dive kit I think it is.

    rear id unknown, sits quite high with 2" lowering blocks and feels very hard, there multi leaf springs. With panard rod and anti tramp kit turreted with bilstine shocks

    i see a lot of people stay away from anti dive kits, can somone explain the difference between, anti dive, double width kit, and twin cam arb?

    i use the car for trackdays, drifting, autotesting and sunny evening blasts,

    i feel the front could do with been abit stiffer and the rear softer. And the whole car to come down maybe another 35 mm ish.

    my dad seems to think (after just finishing it 8 months ago) I should cut 4 link boxes in and convert my rear axle and put the rear on coilovers whilst I'm there. I was on about this when I was building it and he said it wasn't worth it but now he thinks it is. Now I'm not sure it would be worth the money and feel it's more of a setup issue with miss matched spring rates

    What are other people running.

    Last edited by Warrior; 25-04-2017 at 21:55.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Also I think the front springs are to short and become loose when the car is jacked up.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior View Post
    Also I think the front springs are to short and become loose when the car is jacked up.
    that doesnt matter! most low stiff escort springs dislocate whne teh car is jacked up, and id agree your front springs are too soft for track use

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    that doesnt matter! most low stiff escort springs dislocate whne teh car is jacked up, and id agree your front springs are too soft for track use
    What spring rate would you recommend from experience for the front? And what rear leads to match?

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    that doesnt matter! most low stiff escort springs dislocate whne teh car is jacked up, and id agree your front springs are too soft for track use
    When I say loose, if I was to lower the car 35/40 mm on the front when I jack the car up there will be a 35/40mm gap between the spring top and the seat.

    What spring rate would you recommend from experience for the front? And what rear leafs to match?
    Last edited by Warrior; 25-04-2017 at 23:01.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    The A-frame rear axle bars work well but you would need to remove the planard rod and tramp bars. I have 220lb for the front on the road. If you have a pinto in then you may want to go up another 120lb or more.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    track use with sticky tyres 350lb makes a good starting point, some cars go way stiffer though

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by robrs2 View Post
    The A-frame rear axle bars work well but you would need to remove the planard rod and tramp bars. I have 220lb for the front on the road. If you have a pinto in then you may want to go up another 120lb or more.
    Cheers

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    track use with sticky tyres 350lb makes a good starting point, some cars go way stiffer though
    Was thinking the other night about this, and as it's mostly used on track I might start with just changing the front springs for something stiffer, and if the doesn't cure my problems then buy new for the rear to match the front.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    you want the rear relatively soft, so yes start by changing the fronts, in any case its always best to only change one thing at a time

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    that doesnt matter! most low stiff escort springs dislocate whne teh car is jacked up, and id agree your front springs are too soft for track use
    It does matter !
    Apart from failing an MOT the unloaded wheel after cornering will not return in a nice progressive way, the body and it corner weight will come down with a 'bump' onto the spring, the spring will compress further than it needs to and the damper will need to work harder to control the rebound. The best way around the problem is to use a decent weight 'helper' spring arrangement but be aware that the joiner collar needed to make it work is unlikely fit over the popular coil over conversion tubes.
    Last edited by mjr; 07-05-2017 at 18:34.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    It does matter !
    Apart from failing an MOT the unloaded wheel after cornering will not return in a nice progressive way, the body and it corner weight will come down with a 'bump' onto the spring, the spring will compress further than it needs to and the damper will need to work harder to control the rebound. The best way around the problem is to use a decent weight 'helper' spring arrangement but be aware that the joiner collar needed to make it work is unlikely fit over the popular coil over conversion tubes.
    in the nicest possible way you are wrong, after over 30 years of modifying cars and working the motor trade i know about getting them though MOT's, did i mention ive been testing cars since 1993 and own an mot station?

    as for dislocating spring and unloaded wheels, firstly some very very fast cars have been like that since before the escort was invented, helper springs do next to nothing in terms of springing typically having a rate of 25lb/in or less, the slightest weight on them squashes them flat. if you can corner hard enough to dislocate a spring, then ( helper or not) you will of taken all the weight off the suspension, so it will effectively go from no spring to a stiff spring, not instantly but in whatever speed the weight comes back on the spring, remembering you have dampers and anti roll bars which also control suspension movement.

    lastly 95% of race cars i know have springs which dislocate when suspension is at full droop

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    The late great Carroll Smith would disagree with just about everything you have said, no doubt arguing that it would be that last 5% that did the winning !
    In his words....
    "allowing the spring to rattle free is just dumb"
    I agree with him and if you want to know why I suggest you buy his book, he had race winning experience and knowledge he also worked with some of the best drivers around.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    .
    Last edited by mjr; 07-05-2017 at 21:08.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    With 20/25 mm of droop built into the proper strut fitted with a 25lb flat helper, you will never get springs rattling around the cups.

    And yes, plenty of very good knowledge in Carrol Smith book...... the day you stop learning is the day you die.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    After my 1st trackday since changing the rear springs from the unknown ones to 146lb single leafs the car handles much better,

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    If you are running a pinto ? I would go tarmac, sprint, hilclimb ,fast road.
    350 /375 running toyo,yoky etc
    400/450 running slicks.

    Our mk2 race car on kumho, pinto 9jx15 etc l8ng races ( plenty of fuel)
    550 front 350 rear. And it works 2.52 around Spa 53.5 Brands etc

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    My anglia and escort both do this when jacked up, for me to dislocate a spring i would have to get the car virtually airborn.

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by piekey View Post
    If you are running a pinto ? I would go tarmac, sprint, hilclimb ,fast road.
    350 /375 running toyo,yoky etc
    400/450 running slicks.

    Our mk2 race car on kumho, pinto 9jx15 etc l8ng races ( plenty of fuel)
    550 front 350 rear. And it works 2.52 around Spa 53.5 Brands etc
    It's rolls abit but still corners very well, there was a lad with a mk2 there he had 335lb front springs and he said he suffered with under steer, he was running r888's

    It can stay as it is, u use it for autotests aswell and they can be abit rough, even more so if it's in a feild or on stumble

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    I don't really like the springs rattling about... And if they don't rattle you can also preload them too.

    I make struts for Escorts over here. (You can't buy any specifically for the Escort) Almost all of them i will make by using a threaded tube which means you can higher or lower the car and not have stuff rattling about.


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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Quote Originally Posted by M11rf View Post
    I don't really like the springs rattling about... And if they don't rattle you can also preload them too.

    I make struts for Escorts over here. (You can't buy any specifically for the Escort) Almost all of them i will make by using a threaded tube which means you can higher or lower the car and not have stuff rattling about.

    Could you make these with 40mm Bilstein inserts to fit a Corolla AE86 ?

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    Re: Help with the differences (suspention)

    Can you not buy them already? I'm in Bangkok... So post would be very expensive.

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