Mk1 hydraulic pedal box and remote servo instalation

[murray1967]

Good day guys.
I have a Mk1 2.0 LHD. I have a set of 45s to go on but the master cylinder is in the way. The only way to overcome this obstacle is to install a hydraulic pedal box assembly. I mentioned this to someone a while back and they told me the was no need for me o install remote servo a he hydraulic pedal box would be sufficient. Hmm. I need more convincing. I've coil over front end with vented brakes.

So I have looked on line an the choice of pedal boxes are immense. I also need direction as to what is the best remote servo choice.

Regarding the pedal box, I intend to retain a cable cutch unless someone convinces me that hydraulic clutch is better.

Thanks in advance for any technical help.

[alladdin]

Pedal box from rix engineering is often recommended. Remote servo on front only is effective in my experience.


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[murray1967]

I have since been told with Bias pedal box that no servo is needed. Can someone explain why?

[katana]

I have since been told with Bias pedal box that no servo is needed. Can someone explain why?

Its not that its 'not needed' but a separated system gives better feel with adequate pressure to brake set-ups different to that supplied by manufacturer. A servo won't improve 'bad' brakes just make the pedal operation lighter. If you want more brake pressure with smaller masters then servo's can be fitted but just make the brakes 'too fierce' with a good shove!

[alladdin]

It's such a difficult topic as you need a matching system so changing a part on yours if different to same part on mine etc as rest is different. 2 points.
You don't need it with pedal box - in theory you don't IF you get all parts to work correctly and match and even then if you have std discs etc your limited.
Servos don't make brakes better - yes they do - that's like saying "pushing the pedal harder don't make the brakes work better"
Best setup I ever had was all std but servo on front only. I will add that it was 30 yrs ago and I don't spend thousands on brakes but they were superb end of


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[murray1967]

As you said. The servo lets you control braking better as old cars don't have abs. I found on my mates mk1, this was 25 years ago, that the tendency with no servo was to have to push so hard that you would lock up. I believe that a servo lets you control this easier. As said, the brake setup is the set up. The servo doesn't improve your calipers and disc efficiency. But it does give you better control over it.

[wildo105e]

Just to throw in the mix, lower spec mk1's never had a servo they had a single master cylinder. mine did and felt fine on vented disc's with drums etc. My anglia has a bias pedal box with 4 pot willwoods and rear disc's and stops a treat. no servo in that.

you may be able to get away with a single cylinder in the engine bay. as for bias pedal boxes nobody ever moans about gartrac ones although i don't have one, just what i have heard on here.

[Erikmex]

Servo's dont make brakes any better, the term better is in reference to braking efficiency, a servo doesnt increase that, nor do they increase pressure in the system, all they do is assist you in applying the pedal pressure. its an input assist not an output improver. Unless you have legs like matchsticks, then a servo wont make your brakes any more effective, in fact the opposite as they reduce feel and create a 'servo delay'.

[Erikmex]

As you said. The servo lets you control braking better as old cars don't have abs. I found on my mates mk1, this was 25 years ago, that the tendency with no servo was to have to push so hard that you would lock up. I believe that a servo lets you control this easier. As said, the brake setup is the set up. The servo doesn't improve your calipers and disc efficiency. But it does give you better control over it.

Id have to disagree, the control with a servo is reduced, youre more likely to lock up brakes with a servo fitted as you have reduced feel and a slight delay, often the delay means that first braking application is too fierce...then a delay then feedback before releasing slightly, drive a car with over-servo'd brakes like a modern VW Golf and you'll feel it.

[alladdin]

Servo's dont make brakes any better,
Unless you have legs like matchsticks, then a servo wont make your brakes any more effective, .

Tosh
Anyone who has driven their daily without starting the engine will know that the brakes don't work too well , in fact you will struggle to stop car at all - now why could that be ? Have discs shrunk ? Calipers seizure overnight maybe ?
I don't know about you but when I start my engine my brakes do get better not bigger not newer not even more expensive but much bloody better.



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[Erikmex]

Its simple engineering physics, what youre talking about is a vehicle with a master cylinder and hydraulic system designed with a servo assist, so of course they will 'feel' better, however, the braking efficiency wont be any better with our without the servo, the only difference is how hard you need to push the pedal, fitting a servo will never increase braking efficiency unless the system requires such a high pedal effort that you cannot physically apply it with your leg. Thats not my opinion btw, thats fact. if you like i'll do a calc for you. So by your way of thinking, two identical braking systems on the same car, one with a servo one without, do you think youll achieve a higher braking efficiency on test rollers in the car with the servo??

[alladdin]

Keep shovelling 👍😄


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[katana]

Why don't many race cars retain servo then?

[alladdin]

Because a correctly set up system with parts that are up to the job doesn't need one but comparing race car budget and technologies to what is practical to update 40 yr old brakes doesn't really make sense or help anyone.


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[Erikmex]

That isnt really an explanation as to how a servo makes brakes ''better''. they dont, all they do is reduce the required input whilst reducing feel and causing a braking delay. A servo fitted to any hydraulic system, whether to actuate anythign, be it a piston, and actuator, solenoid.........cannot increase the system pressure or efficiency, thats an impossibility, its merely to reduce the input required, any engineer or anyone with an ounce of engineering knowledge will tell you that.

I think the term ''better'' this guy is referring to is that you dont have to push as hard, without really knowing the drawbacks or that the braking efficiency cannot be improved by fitting one.

[alladdin]

Your repeating yourself
That's 3 times now without answering my original analogy


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[murray1967]

ok Smokey guys.
All clear and we can settle down. So the servo basically means the brakes work the same but the drivers efforts on the pedal are reduced but there is an estimated slight delay between pedal pushing and actual brake response. Nothing that I have ever personally noticed. But for some reason all the brains in the Fords AVO department put their heads together and decided that servos were a necessity. After reading this wee thread it would appear they knew little :-)
So I guess then its simply now personal choice.
I would also assume that the introduction of assisted braking would be of greater benefit to heavier vehicles where the physical braking mechanism is bigger and therefor pedal pressure required is greater for longer. Thus an assisted system is easier for the driver.

Ok so to summarize. I wont use one :-) Money in the bank for other modifications.

[Graham]

i would say try without, you can always add one later.

to servo or not is horses for courses, without doubt a servo makes the brakes feel very different, much more like a modern car.
some drivers like a really solid rock hard pedal, others prefer a bit more movement and a less solid feel, if you tend to stamp on the pedal id say you more likely to suffered unwanted brake lock up with a servo, but sometimes without on, you have to push so dammed hard you loose the feel and again lock up.one things for sure there is o right or wrong in this case

[Erikmex]

Your repeating yourself
That's 3 times now without answering my original analogy


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I dont need to, i get the impression you dont really know what youre talking about.

[alladdin]

ok Smokey guys.
All clear and we can settle down. So the servo basically means the brakes work the same but the drivers efforts on the pedal are reduced but there is an estimated slight delay between pedal pushing and actual brake response. Nothing that I have ever personally noticed. But for some reason all the brains in the Fords AVO department put their heads together and decided that servos were a necessity. After reading this wee thread it would appear they knew little :-)
So I guess then its simply now personal choice.
I would also assume that the introduction of assisted braking would be of greater benefit to heavier vehicles where the physical braking mechanism is bigger and therefor pedal pressure required is greater for longer. Thus an assisted system is easier for the driver.

Ok so to summarize. I wont use one :-) Money in the bank for other modifications.

sort of , ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,the standard servo fitted to the escorts was always deemed a compromise due to the linkage, remote servos running from vacuum only are better and were actually used on some of the works escorts from memory .
............... and grahams comments are spot on as usual. .
one other point - mentions above of brakes locking - if you CAN lock the brakes then at least they are working well enough to do so which on a lot of std setups is not the case, often its like having teflon pads when you stand on them and its in this situation that a front only servo gives you the bite your missing.
as you say, try it for yourself on your own car and see what suits

[Erikmex]

ok Smokey guys.
All clear and we can settle down. So the servo basically means the brakes work the same but the drivers efforts on the pedal are reduced but there is an estimated slight delay between pedal pushing and actual brake response. Nothing that I have ever personally noticed. But for some reason all the brains in the Fords AVO department put their heads together and decided that servos were a necessity. After reading this wee thread it would appear they knew little :-)
So I guess then its simply now personal choice.
I would also assume that the introduction of assisted braking would be of greater benefit to heavier vehicles where the physical braking mechanism is bigger and therefor pedal pressure required is greater for longer. Thus an assisted system is easier for the driver.

Ok so to summarize. I wont use one :-) Money in the bank for other modifications.

Correct, also worth noting that many WRC cars have no servos, not all boreham cars had servos either, alot has to do with driver preference, personally, i prefer the feel of a non servo system, worth noting that cars like the Lotus Elise and Exige, Mk1 & 2, have no servos. On the subject of locking, its never desired to lock brakes, too large a servo will make locking up far easier, if you do fit a servo the smallest you require is always best, under - servo is always better than over.