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Thread: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

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    Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Hi! I'm graving an n/a cosworth engine built for my car and i am looking for what camshafts to use. It will be a roadgoing engine, hopefully seeing arounf 180hp, with a good usable power-range .

    I want to stick with hydraulic lifters if possible and found pipers ultimate road camshafts for hydraulic lifters (288 duration in/ex, 10.34 lift with 36-72/72-36 timing) that supposedly revs to 7k I have been doing some reeding the the subject and it seems the general opinion is that the lifters wont cope with the lift/revs?

    Then again if piper sells them, it has to work right?

    They also male a rally cam for na with hyd lifters that has a lift at 11,18 in and 11,00 ex and 288/280 duration revving to 7500.

    Anu experience shared on the subject would be greatly appreciated.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    hydraulic lifters will cope with 7k no problem

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Could it cope with the lift/rpm of the rallycam at 7500 aswell?

    Whst kind of pistons would be appropriate for the hp target and longevity? Considering 11:1 ish comptrssion so that 98 octane will be fine.

    Hoping that kind of compression could give me the desired engine performance.
    Last edited by Broberg; 09-07-2017 at 19:18.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    plenty of engine are run to 7500 on hydraulics ,

    you wil most likely have to either have some pistons custom made, OR buy some forged n/a ones and machine them to drop the compression

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    I had 60thou taken off my Cosworth NA 12.1's.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Are there any pistons to recomend?

    I've heard the accralite ones can bebritle and needsto be changed often?

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Broberg View Post
    Are there any pistons to recomend?

    I've heard the accralite ones can bebritle and needsto be changed often?
    used loads of accralitte, id say they are bomb proof.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Ive used Wossners in car and bike engines with no issues

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Sounds good, maybe i'll go for the accralites and lower the cr just a tic, so that there is noe issue With the fuel beeing used.

    Thanks alt for Your input !


    you guys hae any other tips, Things i should keep in mind, it's more than welcome.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Ive used Wossners in car and bike engines with no issues
    wossners tend to be more intricately machined than accralites, which makes them lighter, in an na engine either would be fine, although i think the woosners are a bit fragile in high boost big horse power turbo yb engines, dont know about anything else

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Im currently building just such an Engine.
    Wossners for me with Std injection rods and crank.
    Out of interest who is doing the cylinder head work?

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowtaxi View Post
    Im currently building just such an Engine.
    Wossners for me with Std injection rods and crank.
    Out of interest who is doing the cylinder head work?
    I'll be using standard cosworth crank and rods.

    So either Wossner or Accralites will work fine?

    - I'm not quite sure yet, but i live in Norway, so won't send it to England for headwork.
    i'm checking out some local engine builders, haven't decided anything yet.

    Not sure if i should go for a modern company that does all kind of computering wichcrafts to find the best port shape/size or use the old "gurus". (we do have som very good cosworth gurus here, but more on the turbo engines)

    My setup is probably going o be inlet manfold restricted,, as i'm going for injection and plenum inlet.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by THEDMAN View Post
    I had 60thou taken off my Cosworth NA 12.1's.
    What kind of compression did you end up With? and what kind of fuel are you using?

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Hi Broberg,
    Comp ration works out at around 10:1 but not had any headwork done yet so after headwork may need thin gasket, trying to avoid block skimming if possible.
    Standard plenum and injection sounds interesting. Didnt know that was possible without Turbo.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowtaxi View Post
    Hi Broberg,
    Comp ration works out at around 10:1 but not had any headwork done yet so after headwork may need thin gasket, trying to avoid block skimming if possible.
    Standard plenum and injection sounds interesting. Didnt know that was possible without Turbo.

    I am using a haltech elite series ECU, so the engine control should not be any pronlem, i'm more unsure about the plenum, i don't think it has enough flow for my target power, but time will tell and it can always be changed if needed .

    Your build sounds interesting are you going to be using carbs?
    Last edited by Broberg; 12-07-2017 at 20:20.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    First, you will have no problem with the haltech ecu, it's a very good product that is more than up to the job of most applications and second, the normally aspirated yb engine experience i have has been using either bike carbs or individual throttle bodies, with a compression ratio around 11:1 or more in some cases. Burton has some great accralite pistons and rods that are suitable for use in a high compression range of n/a yb hardware and cams that will scream to 9k

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Broberg View Post
    I am using a haltech elite series ECU, so the engine control should not be any pronlem, i'm more unsure about the plenum, i don't think it has enough flow for my target power, but time will tell and it can always be changed if needed .

    Your build sounds interesting are you going to be using carbs?
    The standard plenum and single plate throttle will make one big joke of your engine. Is not going to work and for sure not with a faster camshaft. You need ITB's or a good pair of Weber carbs (I would go for the Webers all day long). The problem is, if you get more valve lift at TDC (and will be the case with your faster camshafts needed to make real power) one cylinder is going to detune the other. With ITB or Weber, each one is separate from the other and this way you can get real pulse tuning.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    You are probably correct, and i have different inlets waiting, but i want to give it a go and see what happens.

    If you"ve read this thread you will know that i am aware thst the inlet ca cause problems but have you tried it? As stated before anf seen in the cam choises it's not going to be a race engine with 250hp screaming at 9k..

    Take a look at the gt86 for example, that"s using a relatively small single plate throttle, and works fine for 200hp.doesn't it?

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    NA engines with one throttle plate have a different kind of inlet manifold shape as what you find on a turbo Cosworth (careful tuned lengths that work in a narrow RPM range). Plus, these high power engines are not as spectacular driving at all. They have low torque numbers and do not feel as fast as if you would have fitted ITB's (and seldom give the power they have quoted).

    For sure, a Cosworth inlet manifold will not give good results, way to short and you need a serious camshaft to make 180 Bhp because the head flows so badly. Unless you put an awful lot of time and money into it but then you should at least fit ITB to make full advance of your money spend.

    Fit a set of Weber's and the increase in torque / power will be a lot better compared to the money you want to spend (or use the Haltech if you already got it and fit ITB).
    Last edited by Dyno; 13-07-2017 at 07:22.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    NA engines with one throttle plate have a different kind of inlet manifold shape as what you find on a turbo Cosworth (careful tuned lengths that work in a narrow RPM range). Plus, these high power engines are not as spectacular driving at all. They have low torque numbers and do not feel as fast as if you would have fitted ITB's (and seldom give the power they have quoted).

    For sure, a Cosworth inlet manifold will not give good results, way to short and you need a serious camshaft to make 180 Bhp because the head flows so badly. Unless you put an awful lot of time and money into it but then you should at least fit ITB to make full advance of your money spend.

    Fit a set of Weber's and the increase in torque / power will be a lot better compared to the money you want to spend (or use the Haltech if you already got it and fit ITB).
    The head needs alot of work anyways to give decent Power.

    I will not use webers, hate the low driveability, cold start issues, and they are not alot longer than the standard intake runners..i would love itb's but for the moment i'm trying he plenum route.
    in Norway there are strict rules for car tuning, and itb's will not go down well either.
    - Do you tink a sweedish style inlet would be better?

    I have some space limitations for the intake runners, as the brake booster is n the way (LHD)
    The Haltech is in the car, only a few connetors left to wre.

    And again i do not disagree with Your opinion, ITB's are probably the best but it's worth a shot, doesen't cost me anything to try.
    Last edited by Broberg; 13-07-2017 at 08:30.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Don't know about the Swedish manifold but any manifold using one throttle plate is costing your torque and power.

    The advance using ITB against Webers is that you may route them in a other direction with a bent and maybe find more space so you do not touch the brake booster.

    Totally not agree with your carb explanation, poor driving at low RPM, cold starting issues etc... are tuning problems, not Weber problems. Weber was standard equipment on million Alfa's, Aston Martin's, Porsches and many others, they did not give any of the problems you mention. It is indeed the most misunderstanding and if I got a customer calling me they also talk about no Weber's, hate Weber's and a lot of story's. I build, tune and fit Weber's for living, we do not seems to have these problems, not even in fairly high tuned engines. We usual end up halve the price as when we would fit ITB's and ECU.

    BTW, if your car would be here, I can build and fit a set of Weber's, not even using my dyno, just fit, synchro and set CO and will already perform so well it would take you many hours do the same with your ECU. Don't want to attack or whatever but just want to make clear you should not underestimate a correct setup Weber. And story's about less consumption with ECU etc, if there is, it will be hardly noticed.
    Last edited by Dyno; 13-07-2017 at 08:46.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Don't know about the Swedish manifold but any manifold using one throttle plate is costing your torque and power.

    The advance using ITB against Webers is that you may route them in a other direction with a bent and maybe find more space so you do not touch the brake booster.

    Totally not agree with your carb explanation, poor driving at low RPM, cold starting issues etc... are tuning problems, not Weber problems. Weber was standard equipment on million Alfa's, Aston Martin's, Porsches and many others, they did not give any of the problems you mention. It is indeed the most misunderstanding and if I got a customer calling me they also talk about no Weber's, hate Weber's and a lot of story's. I build, tune and fit Weber's for living, we do not seems to have these problems, not even in fairly high tuned engines. We usual end up halve the price as when we would fit ITB's and ECU.

    BTW, if your car would be here, I can build and fit a set of Weber's, not even using my dyno, just fit, synchro and set CO and will already perform so well it would take you many hours do the same with your ECU. Don't want to attack or whatever but just want to make clear you should not underestimate a correct setup Weber. And story's about less consumption with ECU etc, if there is, it will be hardly noticed.
    i'm sure there is a reason why carbs got outdated and injection became the new standard, and yes it has alot to do With emitions. but that only tells that it is more effective right? a good EMS wil give alot more accurate fuel delivery and atomisation would be better right?

    If te cars you mention had good injection systems theyd probably perform better.

    The Haltech, can also correct fueling depending on enigne temp, altitude, throttle position and all the other paraeters to give the best performance at all times, where as carburated engine work great at working temp and the altitude for where it was tuned, but is less than opimal for the rest.. if it is tuned at sealevel, it's not going to be that perfect, way up in the mountains?

    I'm quite confident a set of ITBs With a good EMS will outperform a carburated equal.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    I do not fully agree. ECU's do have advance and where mainly introduced because it was the only way to work at a correct 14,7 for the CAT.

    In theory when you read all about ECU's (and I had the same idea in 1999) ECU's must outperform carburetors with a mile. In practice, a good tuned carb does exact the same for have the price (and that's why I want you to inform you or others, there is a cheaper option). About top power, do the test, I did on many engine, in the whole working range of the engine where it will be used (let say 3000 to 8000 for a race engine) the carburetor will make at least the same power, in my test's usual more. Never seen less. I do not go into details but all has to do with the drops coming out of the carb (and did my homework very well).

    Fuel consumption. Many tell me you can make the map lean at light load and richer for full power and so safe fuel. No you can not. When you make a lean map at light load, acc. suffers. Mainly because all sensors like temp of air etc.. are coming late. The map can not be made leaner as what you can with a cab. Carbs like SU can even run leaner as most ECU's (but CAT does not want to see lean; it need 14,7). And most prepared engines with 8v heads do not even want to run lean at all. Only thing you can do is add an other 400 € wideband and let it correct the mixture. This will work for constant load and RPM but when you are "playing" with the throttle it's no longer helping (look's like on your data but is coming to late). And the fuel saved is also a lot less as what you might think. You never going to gain your 400 € back o must do a lot of miles, let along the rest of the extra money.

    Most people are to focused to believe it's so much better. I've seen the ECU's coming round 1995 and everyone serious tuner over in less than 5 years. Those using dyno's are long time stepped back to carbs for many engines, including high power BDA's, Holbays etc... And then I do not talk about the running cost over the years and the fact many ECU's are no longer to service after some time. I've used Haltech E6A, do not even have a PC where I can run the software today and can not replace with later version Haltech.

    Just to tell you, if you need to think today about buying cabs o run the Haltech and standard plenum, go for the carbs.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    You're replies and input are appreciated, but i'd rahter go for ITB's than run carbs even though the price is higher.
    -
    Btw here is a test between injection and carbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sQJ...tsqMHXtwKLVtvJ

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    One of the reasons carbs have become outdated on performance engines is that there are very few tuners in the UK now that can reliably tune them whether Weber, Dellorto or others. Schools have taught everyone that the computer will do the job for you instead of getting your hands dirty.

    The NA Cosworth is one of the most disappointing engines when tuned, we have 20 yrs experience and a lot of expense with that type of engine. I know of no one that has even tried a single plenum, I would think a lot of work would needed to reach even 160 bhp with one. A lot of people think because it says Cosworth on the cam cover the engine 's instantly going to give big power, some of us now know that's not the case.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    One of the reasons carbs have become outdated on performance engines is that there are very few tuners in the UK now that can reliably tune them whether Weber, Dellorto or others. Schools have taught everyone that the computer will do the job for you instead of getting your hands dirty.

    The NA Cosworth is one of the most disappointing engines when tuned, we have 20 yrs experience and a lot of expense with that type of engine. I know of no one that has even tried a single plenum, I would think a lot of work would needed to reach even 160 bhp with one. A lot of people think because it says Cosworth on the cam cover the engine 's instantly going to give big power, some of us now know that's not the case.
    I think we all know it needs alot of work to give good performance.

    As you've said, you don't know anyone who have tried.

    I'll try to remember to post back when it"s up and running,
    It could be crap and it could work just fine, if it fails it is always possible to go for itb's

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Don't need to see there tests, I've done mine many times. They are also not using ITB but "normal" manifold and there is more involved. In an ITB setup difference will be almost zero between 2 setups and on the engines I tested it was always the carb slightly higher at the end.

    Anyway, don't want to be rude, just give you the facts. I don't have to wait for your result on standard manifold, it's gone be crap. You better tuner into ITB's direct. I've tried these things as well hoping we could build a cheap fast engine.

    The point I wanted to make is different. I always try to make as much power and torque from the budget I got. The extra money spend on ECU's I put probably into a decent head, better rods, pistons or even a stroker crank. And that's where I make the big difference. Power / money ratio is important because most of us are on a budget.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Thank you for Your advice you obviously have more experince than i do, and thank you for sharing that with me, but for now i'll be a stubborn idiot like many others before me and probably fail along the way. But then i've learn't it for myself.

    A part of this hobby is learning this sort of thing and evolving the car as i og along.

    I aboslutely agree with you on the power/cost point, but that is not what i want for this project.
    On the carb vs EFI we'll not agree, and thats fine, both are systems that with knowhow can produce great results.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    if you do keep the plenum intake you must keep the cams very mild or if it will idle really badly

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    First you need to decide what you are going to use, the std plenum or ITB / Webers.
    As this dictates the cams and compression ratio.
    With ITB / Webers you can go wilder with cams, using the fast road cams with these will be dissappointing.

    About the NA Cosworth engine being dissappointing bhp wise I do not agree.
    Have seen several well prepared engines back in the day which were flying!
    Best remember Mike Manning's rallycross Fiesta racing in Belgium about 25 years ago.
    Think John Cross and Jos Sterkens used similar engines.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    First you need to decide what you are going to use, the std plenum or ITB / Webers.
    As this dictates the cams and compression ratio.
    With ITB / Webers you can go wilder with cams, using the fast road cams with these will be dissappointing.

    About the NA Cosworth engine being dissappointing bhp wise I do not agree.
    Have seen several well prepared engines back in the day which were flying!
    Best remember Mike Manning's rallycross Fiesta racing in Belgium about 25 years ago.
    Think John Cross and Jos Sterkens used similar engines.
    I can confirm the N/A Cosworth engines we had were indeed very disappointing for the money we spent. 1990, engine no 1, steel rods & crank, Cosworth 93mm piston modified for 16v. Paul Gardner fully modified head with L1 DA 10 cams and 48 Dellortos.

    Engine no 2 as above but with a Holbay 80mm crank and 93mm Cosworth high comp pistons out of a Sammy Nelson 2.3 engine.

    Engine no 3. An early 2.2 Millington Diamond development engine out of Geoff Kitneys Darrion. A Millington modified Cosworth head with a pair of DA 10 cams. That engine was suppose to give 250 bhp. The best we saw was 220 on Roy's dyno He had all the excuses under the Sun for it being down on power.. The end came to that engine when it dropped a valve shot through the top of piston and was spit out the side of the engine block by the crank.We later found out the engine had nothing more than modified std Turbo pistons fitted.

    Engine no 4. The head repaired and fitted with F1, BD4 cams with the 84mm Diamond crank and Holbay long rods with 93mm JE pistons and 48's. This was the best engine of all, however it never got to the Rollers as the stupid idiot behind the wheel holed the Rad and cooked the engine resulting in damage once again to the cylinder head.

    Some of the competitors were starting to use the Vauxhall XE engine with good results without braking the Bank regarding their budget. We wanted to stay loyal to the Ford engine and retain that beautiful cam cover which came at great expense and big disappointments. That why now when someone asks me about building a N/A Cosworth engine I try to steer them well clear. You can take a Horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    What the specification of the engines that were built abroad we did n't know. A lot of the engine builders here we using tried and tested BDA cam profiles etc at that time.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    First you need to decide what you are going to use, the std plenum or ITB / Webers.
    As this dictates the cams and compression ratio.
    With ITB / Webers you can go wilder with cams, using the fast road cams with these will be dissappointing.

    About the NA Cosworth engine being dissappointing bhp wise I do not agree.
    Have seen several well prepared engines back in the day which were flying!
    Best remember Mike Manning's rallycross Fiesta racing in Belgium about 25 years ago.
    Think John Cross and Jos Sterkens used similar engines.
    Totally agree with you Leon. First you need to know the setup, THAN cam because both are related and can't be taken apart.

    And yes, I can confess, this Mike Manning engines was a 2,3 Ltr NA Cosworth and really fast (driver even faster). I guess with a large budget and knowledge you do can make them fly. Most do fail and end up between 200 and 220 for a 2ltr but even more will never pass 160 Bhp.

    John Cross and Jos Sterkens where using turbo engines. John most of the time BDA turbo, later, after no longer homologation, he switched to Cosworth. Jos did ran an early MK1 Fiesta with NA engine but was BDA. The 4x4 was also Cos turbo.

    Want to come back at Mike Manning, no idea where this guy is left now but if someone could drive flat out.... yes this was your man. We where calling him "Mad Mike". Best action was when he missed the start, if he was at the rear of the field it gave him so kind of energy and was like he had Nitro in his head !!! Passing one by one, Never ever seen before and never again

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I can confirm the N/A Cosworth engines we had were indeed very disappointing for the money we spent. 1990, engine no 1, steel rods & crank, Cosworth 93mm piston modified for 16v. Paul Gardner fully modified head with L1 DA 10 cams and 48 Dellortos.

    Engine no 4. The head repaired and fitted with F1, BD4 cams with the 84mm Diamond crank and Holbay long rods with 93mm JE pistons and 48's. This was the best engine of all, however it never got to the Rollers as the stupid idiot behind the wheel holed the Rad and cooked the engine resulting in damage once again to the cylinder head.

    Some of the competitors were starting to use the Vauxhall XE engine with good results without braking the Bank regarding their budget. We wanted to stay loyal to the Ford engine and retain that beautiful cam cover which came at great expense and big disappointments. That why now when someone asks me about building a N/A Cosworth engine I try to steer them well clear. You can take a Horse to water but you can't make it drink.

    What the specification of the engines that were built abroad we did n't know. A lot of the engine builders here we using tried and tested BDA cam profiles etc at that time.
    Manning's engines were build in the UK, he only used to rallycross together with John Cross (of AutoCross) in a Fiesta in Belgian events.
    L1 / DA10 and F1 / BD4 are well known cams from the BD range but also been used on a NA Cosworth with good effect.
    German tuner in the day claimed 260 bhp from a 2 litre NA Cosworth with F1 / BD4 with good torque but you needed at least twin 50's to get this.
    Guess you haven't been lucky with your engines doesn't mean it cannot be done.

    Manning was very fast in his green Fiesta but it was a tailhappy car so he spun alot, usually at the first corner ... and entertaining the crowd with his race back to top after that!

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Manning's Fiesta


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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Yes, best thing that could happen was Mike Manning making a spin in the first corner. That's when he came alive and you got you money from entry ticket back !!!!

    260 Bhp is a lot of power for any 2 ltr, possible it can be done. Whatever Mike his engine was making, it was a lot of Power, I estimate over 280 Bhp with very good torque. We are talking about 2,3 ltr here.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    BTW, I could not even remember Mike's engine was on Webers.

    If I'm reading right here it could have been a lot faster with fuel injection and ECU ? Man what an engine would this have been !!!!!!! Sad Mike did not had fuel injection. Try to find out I can get some of my entry money back !?!?

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Manning's Fiesta

    That exhaust's what was described as a Tony Law chimney, we had a manifold the same as that and at the time no Rolling Road operator could get rid of a massive hole in power band around 4000 Rpm. We eventually fitted a 4-2-1 Ashley manifold and the engine drove so much better right through the rev range, problem solved.

    We had a slide throttle injection system to try on the engine but we never got round to fitting it as we did n't have a modern ECU at the time.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Hi Leon,

    I'm not surprised about your Tony Law experiences. Seen many exhaust manifolds from him and most very big, very short 4-1 and very high priced. I had a few on my dyno and replaced with the super cheap Ashley and ALWAYS found more torque and power. Not sure where these guy's get there lengths en diameters from. I've got the same experiences with other big bore expensive manifolds. When it is big, impressive weld and bent people seems to believe it must be very good. Not always so.

    Dirk

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    if you do keep the plenum intake you must keep the cams very mild or if it will idle really badly
    I'll be using a plenum intake, either the original, maybe With a 14mm spacer and modified "neck", or a sweedish type plenum.

    As stated in the first post i want to go for one of the Piper hydraulic ones. Not quite sure which yet.

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    Re: Camshafts for 2.0l n/a cosworth

    The Piper ultimate road cam or the Kent CW22.

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