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Thread: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

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    Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Just a quick post of my last Pinto engine. To give people an idea what can be expected from a road engine. This engine was build up round parts left in my workshop, rebore to 1 mm, KS pistons, polished crankshaft, new bearings, Melling oil pump (very happy with it, very quick full oil pressure), Vulcan stage 3 head (affordable road head and for sure able to make lot more power as what is seen in this engine setup), KENT single valve springs, little over 10/1 CR, Piper BP285 (I wanted to put a personal "touch" into this profile but unfortunately they failed). It's is almost sure I would have pushed up the low RPM torque a little. Very difficult to get a personal profile for a Pinto. Don't have so many problems with flat followers as in most other engine.

    Same torque would probably be pushed up also with 44 IDF trumpets but I forgot to test and anyway, there is no room for them in the Capri MK1. Carb set 44 IDF and ended up with 32 mm chokes (lost 2 - 3 Bhp on top but had a nice +/- 10 Nm extra from the very beginning up to almost 3000 RPM). I did not had 40 mm ready but for sure this engine could have been build up round a good set of 40 IDF and would possible be more progressive on throttle and is always a nice credit. People seems to forget but big carbs open a larger "gap" in a smaller movement (less degrees to open) and can give eretic driving. Try a set of 40 and 45 DCOE on a Jaguar and you will know what I'm trying to explain.

    Exhaust is my favorite Small Bore Ashley. Cost zero to nothing. Perfect up to +/- 160 - 170 Bhp.

    You will notice the very small air filters needed to fit the engine into the Capri without cutting the bonnet but please note, I did measure with and without these small filters and after correcting the jetting I ended up exact the same all over. So they are not restrictive but I do believe you will need to clean them more regular.
    Last edited by Dyno; 25-07-2017 at 21:52.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    The graph. Please note the whole torque line is never as smooth as what I see from other graphs here coming from a rolling road and masking all important info. If you would compare with a real rally cam measured on my dyno it's more like Mount Everest.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Karl Viking.jpeg‎  

    Last edited by Dyno; 25-07-2017 at 21:56.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Some pictures. Almost ready to be picked up by the customer. New oil filler cap and plastic ignition cable holders and ready to go.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P7151761 kopie.JPG‎  

    P7151758 kopie.JPG‎  

    P7161765 kopie.JPG‎  


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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    in pinto terms - when do you change from your recommended 134/fr30 profile cam to the 285 profile ? is it the change to 4 intake chokes ?

    thanks.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    BP285 is indeed more suited for twin carbs because of the extra lift a tdc. I should say, as long as you got single carb, BP134 is the one to go for. But if this engine would have been fitted with BP134 only top power would be little lower as what we see now. I think more in the regio of 140 - 145 Bhp but more toque low down. I wanted to make a combination which would have made BP134 low down and full advance of the BP285 on top but it failed, profile was not as I wanted and gave up.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Good to see there is no dip at around 3000 rpm.
    In the graph it says: 122 F2 210 .55
    Is that the jetting? Where did you a 122 main jet from or is it a typo?

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    These jets used to be available, 120, 122, 125, 127, 130. Not sur they still sell them but when I need a 122 today I ream them and measure them on my carburetor tester. This device has a ver small flow bench to test jets live. I buy jets in packets of 200 up to 500 (the one we use most), when I ream and not OK, the are for the bin.

    Please note, the jets I use are almost for sure of no use in a carburetor I did not already build/ changed. I had several Beetle customers trying the same jetting as I use in my carbs but not working because usual I change to much in a carb and has a big influence on the jetting. For example fitting trumpets will change the whole main jetting. Often without any increase in power.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    The "dip" is not there because I use the correct cam for the power this engine generate. Put little more "cam" in it and you got your dip.

    I'm almost sure, with the right cam I wanted (but they failed to build) it would have been better, almost smooth from very low (at least 500 - 1000 RPM lower). Let say I'm not 100% happy with the torque between 1600 and 2400 RPM. With the cam I had in mind I would have been able to take full load graph started from +/- 1000 RPM. I've used this profile in other engine and some I could even floor as low as 600 RPM.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    nice one !

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    These jets used to be available, 120, 122, 125, 127, 130. Not sur they still sell them but when I need a 122 today I ream them and measure them on my carburetor tester. This device has a ver small flow bench to test jets live. I buy jets in packets of 200 up to 500 (the one we use most), when I ream and not OK, the are for the bin.

    Please note, the jets I use are almost for sure of no use in a carburetor I did not already build/ changed. I had several Beetle customers trying the same jetting as I use in my carbs but not working because usual I change to much in a carb and has a big influence on the jetting. For example fitting trumpets will change the whole main jetting. Often without any increase in power.
    Hello, could you double check the main jet size? Comparing it to my data 122 is too small for twin 44's with that cam.
    Also, in the graph it says "correction factor 1.063" ; do you why it is 1.063?
    Does this mean all readings have been multiplied by 1.063?

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post

    Please note, the jets I use are almost for sure of no use in a carburetor I did not already build/ changed. I had several Beetle customers trying the same jetting as I use in my carbs but not working because usual I change to much in a carb and has a big influence on the jetting. For example fitting trumpets will change the whole main jetting. Often without any increase in power.


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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post

    Please note, the jets I use are almost for sure of no use in a carburetor I did not already build/ changed. I had several Beetle customers trying the same jetting as I use in my carbs but not working because usual I change to much in a carb and has a big influence on the jetting. For example fitting trumpets will change the whole main jetting. Often without any increase in power.


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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Yes, 122, chokes 32 mm, normally you are used to see 36 or min 34 mm chokes. I have no idea what the relation of the cam is versus main jet. I've never seen a real pattern between them??? It's usual related to the choke and the size of engine and yes, where it start to pull (is indeed to a degree linked to the cam) but far less influence. At least not that I ever found a pattern between the cam and main jet.

    Correction factor is automatic added when you add temperatuur, barometric and humidity. If I ask for text only I can see power as absorbed and corrected power. Please note, in hot day and humidity high the correction is more than normal day. But corrected almost always higher as measured (unless sometimes in winter). Dyno cell easy go over 35° inside. Be sure these are no fake numbers. If I test the same engine this winter, correction may be totally difference but correct power will be the same, "measured" power will vary. Sometime in the winter (dry and stone cold) I measure more power as what I get as corrected. Temp in cell can go under 20° and humidity 30%.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    Yes, 122, chokes 32 mm, normally you are used to see 36 or min 34 mm chokes. I have no idea what the relation of the cam is versus main jet. I've never seen a real pattern between them??? It's usual related to the choke and the size of engine and yes, where it start to pull (is indeed to a degree linked to the cam) but far less influence. At least not that I ever found a pattern between the cam and main jet.
    I have.
    Also, if you start calculating things like max. flow of petrol through a jet and what caloric (spelling?) value it represends a 122 jet does not give enough "ooommmphhhh" for 150 bhp.
    Just curious, how to you compensate for the transmission-loss of the gearbox?
    Do you do the measurements in 2nd or 3rd gear?

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    I measure direct drive. It means almost zero lost. Running the second shaft in the box for no reason does not take much energy.

    If I do take 3 gear I can see the "lost" is always higher where torque is highest. On a 2 Ltr like this engine it can be up to 8 Nm at the top. But at lower RPM's (rower torque) and higher RPM's the lines start to come close to each other. Sounds logic to me because where torque is highest, lost in gearbox are highest . Torque is also what kills gearboxes.

    Most of the time I do measure in 3th gear because it has some advances when I test smaller engine, specially to check lower load settings. But when the engine is finally finished I take direct drive readings to be sure the lost over gearbox is like zero. Testing Beetle engines of 49 Bhp are all done in 3th gear, when I measure in direct drive, the losses are minimum, even in 3th gear because they only produce +/- 110 Nm.

    I feel totally nonsense about how much fuel a jet can supply versus HP just by measuring the fuel flow the jet can supply. I totally does not take into account the depression present to draw the fuel out of the jet. It depend a lot more what choke is fitted, aux choke, how the rest of the carb has been setup, trumpets or not etc...

    There are many relation I did found out between carb and camshaft you use but not the main jet. Most important part that change is the emulsion tube and how I have to build up the carb. I see more difference in jetting between let say 2 different exhaust manifolds (and does not automatic mean difference in power), trumpets or not, length of the trumpets. This can have more influence in main jet as anything else. If there would be a fixed relation between camshaft and main jet I'm almost sure I would have noticed and it did not.

    But, I don't know all, what I do know is that this engines is making 150 Bhp (corrected) and I was almost sure it was going to deliver this power before I started building (sold for 150 Bhp). The same head, combined with something like RL31 (Piper BP300), Weber 45 DCOE should make at least 170 Bhp or even more. But than it is no longer a road engine despite it would drive perfect at lower RPM's.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    i have to agree there, many years ago a ran a mildly tuned 915cc hillman imp , i then fitted with very big carb and huge bore exhaust ( by imp standards) the carb then needed massive main jets, at a guess it probably had about 60-70bhp, the same carb settings would of easily supported 150 on a 2.0!

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    I have.
    Also, if you start calculating things like max. flow of petrol through a jet and what caloric (spelling?) value it represends a 122 jet does not give enough "ooommmphhhh" for 150 bhp ON A 2 LITRE ENGINE.
    Just curious, how to you compensate for the transmission-loss of the gearbox?
    Do you do the measurements in 2nd or 3rd gear?
    .

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    I can garante you there is no relation between max power and the main jet. I can prove this and explain all but I won't because it's my daily job and keep it all inside.

    I'm for sure NOT the one who knows all about carbs. As a matter of facts, the more I learn about carbs the more I realize I only know the very beginning. But I do know very quick when someone is talking to me about carbs and jetting, relation to X etc... wether he knows more about that particular aspect or not.

    Just one for you Leon, in you theory, let us take a fixed carburetor 40 IDF with 30 mm chokes and supply 120 Bhp on a 1600 engine with let's say 125 main jet, than the same carburetor fitted to a 2 ltr, making probably 140 Bhp wil need a bigger jet because there is more power?? Right? It needs a bigger jet because it has to supply more power ?!? I'm not going into anymore details, you can answer YES or NO (please explain if the last one). I do know for sure what the jet will be or where it will go to if all the rest of the engine will be the same.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    I think there are 2 things here you forgot about, I'm using a 44 IDF with a very small choke for this carb. 32 mm would normally be fitted to a 40 mm carb and that's a complete different carburetor. The depression is very high because not only the choke is part of the venturi, it's the whole carb from trumpet (if fitted) up to the throttle plate you need to take into account. I'm 100% sure, if the same choke was fitted to a 40 IDF you would see main jets somewhere between 130 and 140 for the same engine. Probably better torque and for sure better progression on throttle.

    Please note, the carb is also modified in house and does have an influence on the main jets to.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    I can garante you there is no relation between max power and the main jet. I can prove this and explain all but I won't because it's my daily job and keep it all inside.

    I'm for sure NOT the one who knows all about carbs. As a matter of facts, the more I learn about carbs the more I realize I only know the very beginning. But I do know very quick when someone is talking to me about carbs and jetting, relation to X etc... wether he knows more about that particular aspect or not.

    Just one for you Leon, in you theory, let us take a fixed carburetor 40 IDF with 30 mm chokes and supply 120 Bhp on a 1600 engine with let's say 125 main jet, than the same carburetor fitted to a 2 ltr, making probably 140 Bhp wil need a bigger jet because there is more power?? Right? It needs a bigger jet because it has to supply more power ?!? I'm not going into anymore details, you can answer YES or NO (please explain if the last one). I do know for sure what the jet will be or where it will go to if all the rest of the engine will be the same.
    Dirk, you say you don't know all about carbs (who does?) but you also suggest I don't know as much as you do. (which could be true ofcourse). If you haven't seen a relationship between main jet and bhp that doesn't mean there isn't one does it?
    From testing and also from what others found as the correct jetting for a particular engine I took the conclusions that I did.
    I won't disclose that just as you don't (even though it isn't my job).
    If you read my post of 18:14 hr (with the added text in red) you will probably guess what my answer to your question would be!
    Regards, Leon.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    I'm not saying you don't know about carbs, I'm saying you don't know as much as I do about carb REGARDING the relation between power and the jet size in this case. I don't know about other carb details, we are currently not talking about other carb details (and it must of course be parts I do know already myself because I don't know all to) so I can't judge.

    What I do know is you got it wrong about the jet size regarding engine size and power and I'm able to explain in full details why it is just opposite of what you are thinking (must say, many people I've med in the past think the same way but it is'n). I do have good reason why I don't want explain and already told you why.


    Just to come back to my question and this will also go back to the red text you typed. Do you feel this 2 Ltr engine of my sample will need a bigger jet compared with the 1600 (same engine) because it is making more power yes or no ????? As far I can follow you logic you should say yes (or not???).

    Sorry, I don't want to argue because this is not where forums are for but it seems like you don't want to believe this engine is making 150 bhp from the very beginning (despite most other people usual quote a lot higher with engines of this spec. I just wanted to show how low the real world is). The main reason why you think you are right is because the jet size (and this was the jet making best power, believe me) is to small for 122 bhp. The last one is totally nonsens. You are comparing the wrong carb and don't take into account I supply fuel to the same engine by using a different supply. It's only a small quantity but it is. Reason I never want to sell carbs only because all "pro-tuners" get it wrong and all I can do to get them back on track is explaining the tricks I use to get the carb setting as good as I can within the limitations of a carburetor.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    About the correction factor, just been standing in front of my dyno and checked the values.

    Temp in dyno cell was 36° (normall in Summer days after a few good "pull's").
    Humidity was 44 % rather low and means PC will compensate with a lower "corrected" power compared to the "measured" power.
    Baro was 30,039, pretty normall values

    So in case someone would feel I was faking these numbers, manipulating these numbers, please ask a pro what these numbers will do for calculation. I only have to fill in these numbers, the software does all the rest, nothing I can do about it.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    There's nothing wrong in discussing differences of opinion about a certain subject on a forum.
    As long as it's being done in a civilised matter.
    About the subject of mainjet vs. power I think you will agree we disagree on that item.

    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    The main reason why you think you are right is because the jet size (and this was the jet making best power, believe me) is to small for 122 bhp. The last one is totally nonsens.
    Oh no a 122 jet is okay for 122 bhp !

    About the correction factor, I am not saying you manipulate the bhp numbers at all.
    The software does that for you. That thinks that in "perfect" conditions the 140 bhp engine gave (yours on the dyno) will make 150.7 bhp. Fact is it did 140 bhp on the dyno that day.
    Correction factors can be manipulated, I saw an engine on ebay some time ago with a picture of the dynosheet.
    That made 162 kW (221 bhp) but that was because the correction factor was a stunning 1.196 ....
    When I asked about that the dynosheet was quickly removed ...

    Oh yes the question, if you ask me does a 2.0 engine need a 25% bigger mainjet compared to a 1.6 with the same carbs the answer is no.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    The correction factor is there because otherwise your can't compare the same engine on next day with new mods. More like the depression standard on a flow bench. This correction factor is nota liar factor, it is called DIN standard SAE or whatever. DIN is calculating to 20° 50% humidity and sea level. You would be surprised on some days how much it can vary from morning to evening. Reason why you best test one after other, not waiting to long.

    Yes, if you set air temp, humidity or barometric out of what it was, the factor can go sky high and you can sell the engine better. believe me, I don't, I fill in what it is after last dyno run. Today the correction was something like 1,053 I believe. 28° dyno cell, 30,059 and 66% humidity. Whole different numbers to start compared to the other day. The difference in power between 3 gear and direct drive was 3 Bhp somewhere in the middle of the power graph, top was the same. 80 Bhp engine.

    Just to come back to the jetting. To me the main jet has a relation to the choke size and the RPM it needs to run and engine size (the last one more or less related to the RPM). This engine was first adjusted with 36 mm chokes and gave 2 - 3 bhp more as with 32 mm choke. Best power was found between 135 and 140 main jet but I did not finished. Fitted 34 mm choke and jet went down to 130. Still making 153 Bhp. Finished with 32 mm choke, lost small power at top but gained back double low down. Jet was 122. So all jets made between 150 and 153 Bhp. I can't see any relation between jet and power.

    Would the carb be 40 mm and choke 32 jet would be a lot bigger, still making same power en same jet. So here go the story of jet related to choke size? No, the 40 mm is a whole different carb, you may not only take the choke in account, it's the choke in a given carb that matters, not jets any carb.

    Usual the choke will determine max power because it start "choking" the power. The bigger choke you will need for full power the bigger the jet will be. But the bigger the engine for the same max power, the lower it will make max Bhp and the smaller the jet will be. That's the relation I found over testen about 700+ engine. Sadly, the direct relation between jet and power I've never found.

    That's about as far as I'm willing to explain. Oh yes, about the jet, the 2 Ltr will need a smaller one.
    Last edited by Dyno; 01-08-2017 at 21:17.

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    Re: Road going Pinto 44 IDF BP 285 Vulcan head

    Oh no a 122 jet is okay for 122 bhp !

    Type error, jet 122 to small for 150 Bhp . correction !!! sorry

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