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Thread: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

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    Bodger grzelu's Avatar

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    Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Hi, I need your advise and help.
    escort mk2, rally prepared and tarmac stage used, grp.4 replica except for the tranny and engine.
    What exhaust manifold would you recommend ?

    I'm Struggling with my Pinto output. At this moment only 140-145hp and nice 210 torgue.
    dyno tested, ignition and jets modified many times. Always same performance . Big valve head, all ports machined, valve guides done, 2x 45 Weber DCOES on largest venturis that fit, cat cams rally camshaft kit, balanced and new bottom. Silver top facet pump and fuel pressure regulator. Everything checked / inspected by 3rd local company and their only concept is to change the exhaust. Now there is installed a 4 branch 4-2-1 type tubular exhaust manifold. 1.5" primary, 1.75" secondary, 2" exit - all on OD (I think 105-speed or sthg like that - bought many years ago and don't remember. Photos below). Please advise on proper exhaust or other areas of my engine if something above makes no sense to you ... thanks


    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_2419.JPG‎  

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    IMG_2417.JPG‎  


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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto


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    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Most recommend the Ashley


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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Thanks but it's designed for over 2 liters. Is that what you use? What power/torgue you have ?
    they make also 2l version but is out of stocks in shops I know.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    Most recommend the Ashley


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    Thanks, which size? I was thinking about 2-1/4" OD but they are out stock in shops I know.
    Also what is your experience with their quality? They are half the price of TLE but I heard they could be miss welded like my current exhaust...

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    Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    If your going to compete I'd go for the 21/2 Ashley. race in stoke stock them and post .

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    Bodger grzelu's Avatar

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by redhf View Post
    If your going to compete I'd go for the 21/2 Ashley. race in stoke stock them and post .
    Appreciated - could send a link to someone who has those in stock?

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    210 nm isnt bad, most ive seen from 2.0 was 225, on full engine management

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    If prepared for over 160 - 170 bhp it should work perfect with Ashley big bore. Tested several different manifolds on different engines and this manifold never failed when it came to overal power and torque.

    If you can't get the right power with this manifold, other parts are holding you down. Possible you manifold ain't that bad at all and max power is not low because of the manifold.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto


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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    210 nm isnt bad, most ive seen from 2.0 was 225, on full engine management
    I'm also happy with torgue It's the low power that worries me.
    Ok I'm looking for the Ashley 2-1/4".
    BTW - should rest of the exhaust system (beyond 4-2-1 manifold) be that same size (2-1/4") or can be 2" as well? I know it shouldn't be bigger in NA car but smaller can work?

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    what cam exactly, and what compression ratio? you say the head is big valve and ports fully machined, BUT 90% of work done to most heads doesnt do anything other than add to the cost, the difference between an ok and a really good engine is the head, both in terms of how well it flows and whether the valve geometry suits the cam base circle.

    you read much about pinto rocker angles and where the cam wipes and that it should be in the middle, quite frankly i all i look for is to get the valve lift it should have, ive never had an issue due to the cam not quite wiping the middle of the follower, as long as it doesnt fall off the edge of the pad and i have the lift the cam is supposed to give im happy and ive NEVER had a cam wear out

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    I recall reading an article somewhere about back to back tests on Pinto exhausts and manifolds. I can't remember if it was Vizard or someone else carrying out the tests.

    The outcome of the test was that the small bore 421 manifold with a 2 inch diameter exhaust cost the engine very little in power and torque on an engine giving over 180bhp. So big is not always best.
    Last edited by Forest_rallying; 28-07-2017 at 20:38.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Totally agree with the Graham comment about the head work. I've seen many "full" prepared Pinto's in the past but only a hand full that made power. In next graph are 2 identical engines, same bottom, same exhaust, same carb set, same camshaft (different makes but same profile within very close lines), only different headwork (both pro's). The Vulcan head is making the power as usual, the other head ........ Both tests done in 2 days. One engine after the other.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails A8 Leysens + Vulcan kopie.jpeg‎  

    Last edited by Dyno; 28-07-2017 at 20:45.

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    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Is the Ashley "big bore " the 3 piece one ?


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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    From what I read in the graph not the same carbs were used.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Correct, the text says, 40 DG-D-V and 28 mm chokes. This is a downdraft carburetor I use on VW Beetle engines and for sure a mistake in the text. I forgotten to change to 45 DCOE. They where exact the same carbs as in the other engine. I always have to fill in the text so it suits the engine, here I forgot to change it and text before was for sure a Beetle and carbs do not even fit the Pinto.

    As in the text, the only real difference was the cylinder head. Head was sold for over 200 Bhp and came from a well known Pinto tuner in the Netherlands.
    Last edited by Dyno; 28-07-2017 at 21:16.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Ashley 3 piece. For engines under 160 Bhp I suggest small bore. I've once tested a 175 Bhp (or 170, can't remember exact but very close) and I "lost +/- 2 - 3 Bhp in top with the small bore compared the big bore. Torque in low revs was better. Can't remember how much, can try to find the test work back.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Please note, test where not done in 1999, I did not even had an engine dyno in 1999, it was an error in the software they have never fixed, dyno always started the same date. It was also the printing date, not dyno date. Both engines where printed the same day despite the software says day 2 and day 3. Confusing I know but just want to tell before I get commends about this one.

    You can also see a different correction factor for both engine, where not tested the same day. Anyone familiar with dyno testing will also be familiar with these numbers (the changing of these numbers). I don't have the most expensive dyno of all, and maybe not the most accurate. All I can tell about my dyno is, for customers who are used to other dyno's and finally have there engine tested on my dyno, the are usual depressed about the Hp numbers. I seems to supply low dyno numbers.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    I'm running a healthy Pinto and have the TLE with a 2.25" system. On the dyno we tried a 2.5" system and they made the same power but the 2.5" was a bit higher up the rev range. The dyno graph was with the 2.25" system





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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    what cam exactly, and what compression ratio? you say the head is big valve and ports fully machined, BUT 90% of work done to most heads doesnt do anything other than add to the cost, the difference between an ok and a really good engine is the head, both in terms of how well it flows and whether the valve geometry suits the cam base circle...
    Thanks for joining the discussion.
    The Kentcams camshaft kit is RL32k (before I had a FR32k with similar power output but much smaller torgue). The head was inspected due to lack of valve seat tightness. No other wear out was noticed even the engine was running on this set up 2 for years (app 500-600 stage Km). It was then machined / aligned and the tightness returned to app.85-90%. Also the flows were checked / equalized between cylinders. The compression will be checked on Monday and I will let you know. There is also adjustable cam pulley installed but the large valves don't allow for much adjustment.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    why i say flow i mean how much air does the head flow on a flowbench?

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    why i say flow i mean how much air does the head flow on a flowbench?
    I'm not sure how it's called (flowbench?) but yes, the flows were checked and I found a diagram via "Port Flow Analyzer v.3.0" but only for heads condition before works done to it. Now trying to get the later one.

    Compression ratio was checked today - it is low. Starting from 1st cylinder: 9.0; 9.1; 9.3; 9.0....
    The head was skimmed 2 times already but maybe to little (?). I'm using new but standard pistons as well.
    Please let me know what you think / suggest.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by grzelu View Post
    I'm not sure how it's called (flowbench?) but yes, the flows were checked and I found a diagram via "Port Flow Analyzer v.3.0" but only for heads condition before works done to it. Now trying to get the later one.

    Compression ratio was checked today - it is low. Starting from 1st cylinder: 9.0; 9.1; 9.3; 9.0....
    The head was skimmed 2 times already but maybe to little (?). I'm using new but standard pistons as well.
    Please let me know what you think / suggest.
    those figures are not compression ratio they are compression test, a totally different thing, but that suggest you have nothing like enough compression.

    sounds like you need to have the engine apart to fit some forged pistons and do some machining to get the compression ratio up

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    How would the figures look for the 'compression ratio' ?
    also could you write from your experience what it would be (I've read somewhere that skimming of the head should allow for max 10.5:1) and how it could effect power output ?

    I guess going for forged and shaped pistons is quite expensive approach and wonder where could I end up only with proper head machining... and eventual different exhaust manifold. Maybe will have to live with this.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    you dont look at the figures to get compression ratio, that is worked out by calculation, you need to know the volume in the combustion chamber, piston height, head gasket thickness and exact cylinder capacity, you can only work it out BEFORE the engine has its final assembly, or by removing the head and then meassuring

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Graham....now I understand....thank you for patient explanation
    the compression ratio should be calculated based on measurement of existing elements, based on that skimming/machining to be done and only then the engine assembled back together... We were doing it backwards indeed.

    I called one guy that have and use for competition Pinto engines here (with compression ratio 12:1, and skimming app 2.7mm) and he claims that with a big valve head there must be machining done to pistons. It might be true as on our engine as it is now we could adjust the pulley only 5 degrees each way. That makes things much more complicated (skimming not only head but also milling pistons). I guess I must play with what I have now to finish the season (local historic championships) and maybe build another engine during winter.
    Do you see any sense in skimming the head only to a level that pistons remain original (only some compression would be gained) or its better to leave it as is keeping pulley adjustment possible (small though) ?.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    It's the overlap of the valves that determines whether the pistons need pocketing on a Pinto. The RL 32 cam that you have in your engine will certainly not need pocket pistons irrespective of your valve sizes grzelu!

    As for your compression you need to measure your head volume, gasket and piston volume at tdc and do some calculations. You are literately stabbing in the dark with skimming your head blindly guessing. For example you don't know how much material has been removed from the combustion chamber de shrouding the valves.

    It I were you I would aim for pistons to be at least flush with the block or better still 10 thou proud and a gasket thickness of 40 thou, approx 1mm. Whatever you do don't aim for anymore than 10.5.1 on std pistons or the extra cylinder pressure and heat could turn them into putty.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    thank you ! i will try to find someone who could make those volume measurements here (especially for head is tricky i guess) and then will decide weather to go for it.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Anyway, is not it very interesting to have 210 Nm from an engine with a wrong CR for the RL32 ? I am confused.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Ok so we did some measuring yesterday.
    the head took 44,5 ml of oil into one cylinder compartment (btw we have checked heads height as I don't know how much was skimmed in the past and it has 93mm now).

    we did some calculations. They all don't work. We are making a mistake somewhere.
    If we measure the volume of combustions volume (volume for one cylinder + the 1,25mm gasket + the head above) and check how many times the volume of only head+gasket will fall into it, We ended up with 12,02:1 compression ratio. Not possible. Please help me to do the calc. Method used:
    Volume of one cylinder when piston is down (498,25cm3) + volume from its gasket (0,7cm3) + head volume (44,5 cm3) = 543,45cm3.
    Volume of one cylinder when piston is up is gasket and head above = 45,2cm3.
    543,45 / 45,2 = 12,02....

    Ps we have checked also how much the big valve is sticking outside of the head - at highest extension it's app 3,5mm outside. It seems that the head could be skimmed another 2mm but no adjustment on pulley will be left. I'm confused.
    Last edited by grzelu; 07-08-2017 at 22:13. Reason: More data

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    World Champion Decade Plus User alladdin's Avatar

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    Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    (Swept) Volume of 1 cylinder is just bore x stroke
    Or if measuring with liquid
    Volume at bdc - volume at tdc both above piston.

    Standard head is approx 95 mm


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    Last edited by alladdin; 08-08-2017 at 05:23.

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    head gasket volume wont be 0.7 more like 7cc or 8cc

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    head gasket volume wont be 0.7 more like 7cc or 8cc
    You're right - I've divided by 100 and should by 10... Gaskets volume for one cylinder is app 8cm3.
    this changes our calculation and the compression ratio is 10.74:1 of method used above is correct (?)

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    where does the piston sit at TDC in relation to the top of the block?

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    where does the piston sit at TDC in relation to the top of the block?
    I thought it's flat but Just made a double check and it's 0,6mm below the block surface. I need to update my calculations

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    theres another 3-4cc gone, its clear part of your issue is you need more compression for that cam to work well, so either go forged pistons and up the compression or switch to an rl31 cam

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Done:
    With a piston 0,6mm lower then the blocks edge the combustion chamber is larger and compression ratio is 9,92:1
    skimming -1mm, would give 11,08:1
    skimming -2mm, would give 12,60:1

    Please let me know what you think. Should Indl more skimming of the head (above) to find the missing power or should I look elsewhere for the problem?

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    Can you double check what cam you have?
    First you write it is a catcams kit then it is a RL32.
    Can you post a bigger version of the dyno-sheet?

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    Re: Which exhaust manifold for pinto

    My apologies to everyone. I was using part names I had in my mind. For years. Now I have checked orders in old
    Emails (from 2014/15) and the set up is:

    - Kent Cams road/rally camshaft kit: SOHC Pinto (carb) KCRL31K
    - WEBER 45 DCOE 152G CARBS with 38mm chokes
    - Inlet manifold SOHC Pinto 2x45DCOE 3.4" (burton)

    Again, sorry for all the confusion. I will appreciate if you look at this again. Bigger dyno I will try to add although this site allows only very small attachemnet sizes

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