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Thread: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Nope

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by longboy View Post
    Look above and to the left of no4 spark there should be a stamp on it. R is for unleaded there may be others, have got one with I stamped on with hasn't got inserts in.
    if its stamped with an 'I' then its not unleaded.....most 2 litre heads had it stamped on them.

    P,PP , R , RR is what you are looking for.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Well, that wasn't a quick read
    Very impressed with what you did and your write up Graham
    I don't suppose you've had a chance to put it on the rollers yet Dave??
    Graham, don't suppose you'd be interested in doing another Pinto but one aiming for high power/torque and still nice to drive/driveable?
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    You should talk to Dave White. He has a pinto built by Graham which would meet your requirements for high output. Not sure how driveable it would be on the street though.

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...ace-car/page40

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    actually dave whites pinto would be streetable in a lightish car with lowish gearing, but thats on engine management it wouldnt be so user friendly on carbs and dizzy, although if you made it bigger it would be more so as it was a true 2.0 being only 1999cc.

    there are quite a few options in between dave whites and dave roberts engines, within reason i can build anything you like.

    but if you really did want dave whites engine it is for sale, complete with dry sump but no management

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Many thanks for the reply Graham
    The story is, I've bought a RS2 which came with a pretty standard 2.0 pinto with twin 45's.
    I've bought an engine off E-bay which is supposed to be a 2.1, lightened & balanced, bvh, cam etc etc.
    I should be getting it rolling roaded this week so will find out if it's any good then
    But, the engine I took out is the right one for the car and was thinking I'd like to use that for a nice powerful pinto that is nice to drive.
    I wouldn't want it to be un-driveable unless you have your right boot planted! i.e. lumpy at idle, doesn't come on cam till 4000rpm!
    I was very impressed with what you did to 'Dave' and would it be fair to say that it's the head work that makes all the difference?
    The idea of a high capacity pinto is nice but I believe these cost lots of money due to the crank and rods?
    I'd be very interested in your thoughts please Graham. After reading your write up I believe you would be an ideal person to take advice from and possibly build it for me?
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    going bigger on cc certainly adds to the cost, even going to 2.1 adds a good few £, to do a long stroke 2.1/2.2 like i did with the geoff pinto which its owner hasnt fitted yet! will add somethiing like another£300 to the build cost, 2.2 isnt too costly its going any bigger which costs real £££ because that requires special steel cranks

    actually im not a big fan of automatically going for the biggest cc possible, i prefer to modify everything but keep the cam sensable to get a nice all round engine, but there are times its well worth going big cc, i did with the geoff pinto because i wanted 45's type performance but using a mild cam and twin choke carb, its also worth doing if your trying for 190 odd bhp but want nice mannors, most people say they dont give a stuff about bottom end torque and flexability until they try living with such an engine on a daily basis

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    My thought process was 180bhp but with very nice manners!
    The bhp figure isn't the major thing for it, torque is what I'm looking for and instant grunt that doesn't require all day waiting for
    I've just sent you a link to something. Thought it might be an idea?
    I'd probably be looking at using the 45's that I already have. Would that be a good choice? I did get a set of 48's with the engine I bought from E-bay but think that's way over the top!?
    Did you do a thread on the 'Geoff' pinto? Just wondered what you did with it?
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    My thought process was 180bhp but with very nice manners!
    if you want that then you have no option but go for big cc, your need 45's with 38 chokes, 48's with the same 38 choke would also work but probably be a bit less grunty lower down.

    or much better stil put it on management and throttle bodies

    i would also be looking at using forged pistons because to get that much grunt you either need a lot of cam which is poor at low speed or lots of compression which std cast pistons wont handle

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    link to geoff http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...ht=geoff+pinto

    which one day might end up in a capri LOL

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr View Post
    if you want that then you have no option but go for big cc, your need 45's with 38 chokes, 48's with the same 38 choke would also work but probably be a bit less grunty lower down.

    or much better stil put it on management and throttle bodies

    i would also be looking at using forged pistons because to get that much grunt you either need a lot of cam which is poor at low speed or lots of compression which std cast pistons wont handle
    So, big/bigger capacity it is! Now, I've got both the 45's and the 48's. Seems to make more sense using the 45's as I'd prefer the grunt low down.

    As it turns out, I've got a set of throttle bodies as well! I believe they are Lumenition 40's (made by jenvey as it says so on the bottom ) Would these do the job? Also got an old Lumenition ecu and wiring loom. Trouble is I don't have any ignition amps to go with it. Though I know a man who has Would 40 throttle bodies be big enough?

    What forged pistons do you reccomend?
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    40mm throttle bodies should just be big enough, especially if driveability rather than wringing every last bhp out of it is the aim.

    as for pistons, my personal preference is for accralites, but i've happliy used wooseners and trw's

    as for the luminition ecu, do you have mapping software for it? otherwise you might want to go for something more modern such as an emerald or dta

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr View Post
    40mm throttle bodies should just be big enough, especially if driveability rather than wringing every last bhp out of it is the aim.

    as for pistons, my personal preference is for accralites, but i've happliy used wooseners and trw's

    as for the luminition ecu, do you have mapping software for it? otherwise you might want to go for something more modern such as an emerald or dta
    It's nice to 'give it some' every now and again but in the real world, you need to be able to drive it on the road and enjoy it! Bottom end power will give you this so definately not looking at top trumps bhp figures

    Yeh, thought accralites might be in the list. Only heard good things about them.

    Good point Graham. In fact I think that might have been one of the reasons for not using it when I first got it! I know you reccomend Emerald so might look at one of them?
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    "Dave" still hasn't been on the rollers, but last week it went to Lands End and and back, and this week it went to Jersey and back. It will be on the rollers sometime, I was even thinking about it today.
    "Geoff" still hasn't been fitted yet, but will be very soon. If the owner had a little bit more cash it would have gone to Jersey instead of "Dave".
    ps. "Dave" is still doing 34mpg+ and can stand being driven at 75-85mph for 4 hours only stopping once for fuel.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    "Dave" still hasn't been on the rollers, but last week it went to Lands End and and back, and this week it went to Jersey and back. It will be on the rollers sometime, I was even thinking about it today.
    "Geoff" still hasn't been fitted yet, but will be very soon. If the owner had a little bit more cash it would have gone to Jersey instead of "Dave".
    ps. "Dave" is still doing 34mpg+ and can stand being driven at 75-85mph for 4 hours only stopping once for fuel.
    Dave
    Thanks for taking the time to reply on this thread. It's good to hear 'Dave' is doing well. Not that it's the be all and end all but it would be nice to know what it is putting out. That's really good fuel returns as well. Not sure I'd want to do 4 hours without stopping
    Will be interesting to see the difference between 'Dave' & 'Geoff'. Be nice to get your view after driving them back to back
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr View Post
    link to geoff http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...ht=geoff+pinto

    which one day might end up in a capri LOL
    Thanks Graham, gave that a good reading as well
    Cheers

    Dazzle


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave View Post
    "Dave" still hasn't been on the rollers, but last week it went to Lands End and and back, and this week it went to Jersey and back. It will be on the rollers sometime, I was even thinking about it today.
    "Geoff" still hasn't been fitted yet, but will be very soon. If the owner had a little bit more cash it would have gone to Jersey instead of "Dave".
    ps. "Dave" is still doing 34mpg+ and can stand being driven at 75-85mph for 4 hours only stopping once for fuel.
    blimey dave by the time "dave" does get on the rollers he certainly wont be "tight" in fact will due a decoke or new rings

    you cant knock 34+mpg driven at those speeds, a lot of modern injected motors would struggle to do better
    Last edited by Graham; 04-05-2010 at 15:59.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    [QUOTE]It's nice to 'give it some' every now and again but in the real world, you need to be able to drive it on the road and enjoy it! Bottom end power will give you this so definately not looking at top trumps bhp figures[ QUOTE]

    i couldnt agree more, you only got to look at my six series, peak power of about 240 isnt anything specatular from 3.5 litres, but buckets of tyre smoking grunt low down means it will haul arse any speed or gear despite weighing one and a half tonnes!

    likewise "Dave" the pinto wont have big top end power especially on only 40mm carbs, but it was built to do torque low down and lots of it which unless your on the race track or rally stage is whats best in the real world
    Last edited by Graham; 04-05-2010 at 16:06.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Sorry to prolong this thread but did you use the vac advance to get this mpg? How is this done - I guess a take off from each port and a reservoir is required to dampen out the vacuum pulses but does anyone have any details.

    PS for the record I get 24 mpg (A road motoring) 2.1 fr33 cam, Grp1 head, twin 40's, 10.6 CR (168 fw bhp for what its worth) - looking to make it into a summer commuter so mpg is important.

    thanks

    jeremy

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    im 99.9% certain dave isnt using a vac advance dizzy, but he is using one with an approprite advance curve,

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    mmmm - would you expect much more mpg from using the vac advance. My dizzy is tweeked slightly so the advance comes in early and the max advance is limited. Is it worthwile trying to get the vac advance working seeing as my cam has quite a duration?

    thanks

    jeremy

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    As Graham said, I use a Bestek dissy with curve to suit the engine and no vacuum advance.
    All mpg figures are calculated by brimming the tank, travelling 200 odd miles then brimming again to give litres used. Miles are off my sat nav, so as accurate as you will get.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Two cracking threads thinking of going down the geoff route myself this winter a quick question
    my block has been bored for 93mm v6 pistons what cc would this make with the crossflow rods
    and offset grinding the crank.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    2174cc if the crank is ground for an 80mm stroke which is whats normally done,

    if you use 0.040 undersize x/flow bearings you can get a 80.5mm stroke which would give 2187cc
    Last edited by Graham; 21-06-2010 at 22:09.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Looked at my crossflow rods today and noticed the oil spray hole is on the opposite side of the rod to a pinto rod
    allso the square counter weight on the small end is on the opposite side !!
    Does this make a difference or do you fitt the rods backwards on the pistons to match the pinto .
    or does it not matter.
    regards paul

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    building basically the same thing but going to use a modified 32/36, my last pinto was fr32 and a modded 38 dgas and when that got set up on the rolling road it was basically set up at 12.5-1 afr, which gave good power but economey, when i get this engine set up, i want power but nice economey, is going for something like 13.5-1 afr too lean?????
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    12.5:1 AFR is very rich, fine for full power on a race motor with wild cams, but part throttle cruise should be more like 14:1, if it needed 12.5;1 AFR to get power theres something wrong or you have a very inefficent engine/setup

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    as far as i know it was only set up at 12.5-1 on the power run, i have the printout infront of me as was a follows,

    rpm afr
    2000 11
    2500 11
    3000 11
    3500 11.2
    4000 11.5
    4500 12
    5000 12.4
    5500 12.6
    6000 12.5

    and now i look at it, it was more ike 12-1, i was thinking this was abit rich when he was doing it but he was the "expert" so i didn't say anything, i did go to track 'n road but they was fully booked for about 6 weeks and i only had a week till pod, so he recommended me to a friend of his who has some rollers in kent, he seemed like a nice bloke but did take his time, should i not maybe go back to him them.

    i'll try to get a scan up of the printout, i'll see if i can borrow a scaner off someone.
    its not dead till it's buried!


    T.I.T engineering. "Feel the power!"

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    by god thats seriously rich low down, its also quite possible your carb had a knnackered power valve, that would mean even off load it would still run very rich

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    power valve was new so hopfully not, i did all the moddifications to it as discribed in another thread, i take it from your reaction i best not go back to him, it had 155 mains so maybe if i replcae with some 150's? i spose i really should of said something at the time now
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    if you want economy rather than all out power a 32/36 would be a better bet. looking at the numbers i'd deffo want to fit smaller mains and then maybe air correctors as well sto stop it leaning out at the top end, it may well be it actually wants a different set of emulsion tubes

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    yes i liked the 32/36, i had it on before the engine build, gave reasonable power but returned great economey if driven steadaly.

    when he done this car he changed the the mains to 155 and put in 160 air correctors, i'm off to buy a scanner so i can post up the printout, i pretty miffed with that bloke now
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    155 main and 160 airs are very close to each other, i would expect more like a 180 air with a 155 main

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    World Champion Decade Plus User caprimentle's Avatar

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    how do i upload pictures, i'm struggling like hell here, the uploads isn't working for me, it says DSC03731.JPG is not of the type image/jpeg or image/pjpeg or image/gif. its my print out for the rolling road session
    Last edited by caprimentle; 24-07-2010 at 14:52.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    power valve was new so hopfully not, i did all the moddifications to it as discribed in another thread, i take it from your reaction i best not go back to him, it had 155 mains so maybe if i replcae with some 150's? i spose i really should of said something at the time now
    Maybe I missed it but what cam do you have?

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Maybe I missed it but what cam do you have?
    the build was as follows

    kents fr32 camshaft
    injection head,
    10.3-1 compression
    ported exhaust ports
    standard bottom end,
    points replaced with electronic ignition (which he later removed the vacume advance as he thought it was to high)
    micro dynamics rev limiter
    ported inlet manifold (remove sharp bends and port matched to head)
    38 dgas (thinned down throttle spindles, enlarged chokes by 2 mm)
    standard exhaust system apart from ashley tubular manifold

    no air filter as it was running those air to ratios without a filter and i didn't want even more richer.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    In my opion all good except:

    Quote Originally Posted by caprimentle View Post
    38 dgas (thinned down throttle spindles, enlarged chokes by 2 mm)
    (which he later removed the vacume advance as he thought it was to high)
    no air filter as it was running those air to ratios without a filter and i didn't want even more richer.
    Enlarging chokes is a tricky job; the choke has a radius on both ends, if you just make the hole bigger then the airflow might increase but it doesn't help the mixture as airspeed decreases.
    Also, the 38DGAS is made for a 3 liter engine. All the internal bores, the power valve channels are too big for a 2 litre unless you have a big cam.
    How much power did it make? Something like 125 bhp?
    I would replace the carb with a std 32/36DGAV.

    Removing the vacuumadvance with one carb isn't a good idea if you want some fuel-economy.

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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    it made 118.1 hp at 5966 rpm and 123.3 lbft at 4120 rpm,

    it knocked the quarter mile time from and standard engine with k&n and tubular manifold by a second and a half from a 17.6 to a 16.2, the build was a very quick budget build, it was a bet for a tenna that i couldn't knock a second off, so i just threw together what i had laying in the shed, the build cost me nothing apart from the cost off the rolling road, and 40 quid for a head skim, everything else i had laying about,

    i was very carefull to keep the venturie affect buy having a large soft polishing piece in the drill and kept pumping it in and out of the carb, so in theory to the whole thing was done equally, took a long time but it felt and looked exactly the same, only 2 mm bigger.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto, 32.6 mpg on sidedrafts, a pinto named dave

    p.s he tried adjust the advance curve through the small plate on the side of the dizzy but i think he gave up so disconected it, with the advance he said it was 36degrees advance which he thought was just a tad to high so tried to adjust but ending up removing.
    its not dead till it's buried!


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    Re: budget economy pinto with some power, how to rebuild a pinto named Dave

    Good to see a real world pinto thread , im just starting a pinto build for a freind in Perth OZ he has a very nice mk1 . Ive done a few before with good results the plan is ; Non 205 block and head it will be running a 34/36 DGAV , 4 branch , Newman cam , 10/5/1 and some headwork , lightened flywheel , full balance , Looking for around 120-130 hp.

    Owe yes Injection rods as ive got a few set lying about.
    Last edited by packman; 14-06-2011 at 10:31.

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