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Thread: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

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    256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    My previous thread was little help. Anyone know of a 2.1 pinto with more power? After having a Google and speaking to some engine builders, this is what I found. This is a development engine.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    you do realize its not April ?

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    So that's a no then? You don't know of one with more power??? These results were produced on the Smith and Jones engine dyno. Feel free to call them. Thinking outside the box, lots of time, money and clever machining has achieved this. I haven't said this engine will last forever but big power has been gained.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Hello,
    the date on the sheet says 11/29/04; is it from 2004?
    What does No W.Pump mean? No waterpump?
    Do you a dynosheet with uncorrected HP and torque?

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    .
    Last edited by Miniliteman; 28-09-2017 at 19:00. Reason: double post (not my fault ...)

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    graph alone doesnt tell us much, presumably no w pump means no water pump, thats a few bhp at the top end, and most likely no alternator either. but thats still a long way off what anyone would expect to see, but it could have a welded up totally reworked head and roller cam giving 15mm valve lift and running E85 or some other rocket fuel.

    wont say its impossible, but it sure as hell isnt possible with just conventional tuning

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    wont say its impossible, but it sure as hell isnt possible with just conventional tuning[/QUOTE]

    Your getting close! Like I said, this engine has been built 'thinking outside the box'. Graham, you are the first to say the graph doesn't say much and your right. No one has even asked for the spec, so how can they say it's not possible??!!! This engine was dynoed a week or so ago, feel free to call Smith and Jones to confirm for yourselves.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Smith and jones? id say its a 2.1 NA Cossie, thats what they mainly build.
    The most powerful Pinto ive ever seen was Connaught's 260hp 2.4 on 50's that they built and dyno'd in 2016, Mark at SRD has built some impressive long stroke Pintos too.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    The guy who built it has his own dyno but chose to use a different one that he's not affiliated with to prove a point. This is 8v 2.1, not n/a cossie.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????



    Twin 50's and a dizzy..... No ecu or throttle bodies here

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    very mk1gaz too

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Hello,
    the date on the sheet says 11/29/04; is it from 2004?
    Im not defending it because I know bugger all but I wonder if the date refers more to smith and jones company history than anything else...
    http://www.smithandjonesengineering.com/history.html
    So thinking outside the box how much does one charge to build that engine, and what is it's spec....? Alloy block, everything else along with it, 10-15k, more???
    Like Graham says not conventional tuning and I doubt conventionally priced for the man in the street either.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Much more, most pro engine builders...the likes of Dave Brookes etc are aprrox 10-£12k for a 200hp 2.1, im struggling with the torque figure on this engine, if it is gen then im pretty sure it would at least be a 2.3.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Brooks does an 8 valve alloy head, it is completely their own re-design but accepts pinto manifolds and alloy rocker cover. It is s clever bit of kit but even with that Dave Brooks told me one customers 2.1 engine saw 230 something bhp. Even with 2.4 capacity could it make the extra bhp?

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Dynosheet with uncorrected bhp / torque figures please !

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    Dynosheet with uncorrected bhp / torque figures please !
    here you go miniliteman, this was the original dyno sheet before John Wood and Smith and Jones altered it.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    If I didn't know any better i'd bet money that was a curve with a sniff of nitrous added - similar kick up.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    @540 0rpm?

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    If I didn't know any better i'd bet money that was a curve with a sniff of nitrous added - similar kick up.
    No nitrous here. 👍

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    I'll bite, how much of the specs do you know or are willing to share?

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Its a bit of a pointless discussion without revealing any detail on the spec of the so called 256hp Pinto, it could be anything really.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Its a bit of a pointless discussion without revealing any detail on the spec of the so called 256hp Pinto, it could be anything really.

    I spoke to John about this yesterday and understandably he doesn't want to reveal how he gained this extra hp. The only thing he said is its on a standard crank with twin 50's and a dizzy. Once he's done some events or ran some times at Pod I'm sure people will realise this figure is correct. This engine was built by John Wood in Eastbourne, this is not an advert just credit where credit is due. If he decides to give any extra information I'll update this.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Yeah, i dont think anyone could really decide on this one without having more info, the drag strip wont prove its power output either.

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    256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Or it's cc or anything else 🙄


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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    What a brilliant piece of engineering, that exhaust manifold is crazy

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Yeah, i dont think anyone could really decide on this one without having more info, the drag strip wont prove its power output either.
    Even with a detailed description of every component used, would people believe it then? The answer is probably not. From this thread and my previous one it seems that anything over 200-220 is just mythical, not possible or lies. If the dyno or event results don't prove anything, what would prove it? Does this mean for the last 30-40 years HPE, Burtons, Vulcan and the other big boys have just made up their results???? At what point do people believe it??

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    What it means is that without any detail of how its achieved - there isnt really much to discuss, like anything really, i could post a dyno graph and say my Pinto makes 12,000hp but without detail to back it up, it doesn't mean much. Lots of engine builders love to talk about a power figure, the ones who like to contribute to the development of engines and the sport.....discuss how they did it, you can hold back key info to protect your business but still give some tech details that dont give too much away. In my opinion, saying ''a standard crank, twin 50's and a dizzy'' doesnt really prove your worth as a builder of a Pinto producing 256hp. I could name numerous well respected builders that will give far more detail than that, Mark Schillaber of SRD for example or Steve Curson of Vulcan, ive been on the phone to these guys for hours discussing their engines......to me thats the sensible approach, if you were about to spend £10k + on an engine would you sign the cheque to the guy who wont tell you much? would you even go to him in the first place? The way i see it is that this post serves as nothing else but bad advertising.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 01-10-2017 at 09:10.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    To be honest....you believe it when its in a car thats winning lots of races / rallies with reliability, a drag strip never proves that in my opinion, sure you can have an engine thats producing really strong power for a wee squirt up a bit of tarmac but having to rebuild it every 13 seconds doesnt make a great engine does it? Im pretty sure that most of the builders making engines with 200, 220 etc could build something with a higher output, but without reliability its useless for the application. Applicaton being the key word here, most of the engines with lower power than this are for events that require reliability, so a direct comparison of two engines one with higher power than the other means nothing....if you had said here are 4 Pinto, all running in X race series, all completing X amount of laps, 1 produces 30hp more than the others with the same reliability.....thats when people start opening their ears.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 01-10-2017 at 09:23.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    As I said at the beginning of this thread, i was in search of the biggest bhp. I also said this is a development engine so who knows how long it will last. John already builds race winning engines. I understand all the points you've made, but I can only share the info I've been given. I'll get onto him today, hopefully I can squeeze some more information
    Last edited by Rustyspoon; 01-10-2017 at 10:03.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Q is there purpose to the thread? or is it just idle curiosity?

    one of the nicest pintos i built was a 2.2, without resorting to a race cam it made 200bhp, it had nothing trick inside i could replicate it for a couple of grand.

    one of the most bullet proof was a 2.3, dyno operator asked me what he could rev it to and i replied anything you like! in the event he only revved it to 8700, since then its been revved to hell and back lap after lap on a race track, nothing about that engine was pushed to the edge because it needed to stay in one piece, in one race its done more work that years of drag racing so if you ask me drag strip times mean nothing.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    ] Anyone know of a 2.1 pinto with more power? After having a Google and speaking to some engine builders, this is what I found. This is a development engine.[/QUOTE] Finding big power pinto's was the purpose of this thread but it got bogged down with the technical issues with these big bhp engines! As I said in my first post, this engine is a development engine so who knows how long it will last. It's already done 10 hours on the engine dyno and is sitting in a road legal race car so is also clocking up some road mileage.. I'll keep this updated as and when there's news on whether it's won any races, it's quarter mile times or just blown up.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Ok so at least tell us about the car? what does it race in? it seems you know more than youre letting on as with each response you reply with something else. But to end the thread until we know more, yeah i know of a Pinto with more power, a 2.1 on a 38 Dgas that made 340hp at 13,000rpm, but thats all im telling you lol!

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    The 140 bhp dyno sheet looks a little misleading with the blank piece of white paper in the top right corner. Power and torque figures look to have been done by a felt tip pen, the torque curve becomes the power and vise versa, very confusing at first glance. The figures there are nothing more than a fast road engine on 40's, I doubt it would have been fitted with 50's at the time.

    I don't think for one moment believe HPE, Burton or Vulcan could possibly build a Pinto engine anywhere near 250 bhp. You would be surprised how many experienced engine builders find it difficult to get over 250 bhp out of a NA Cosworth or BDA without loosing total drive ability.

    The exhaust manifold is a work of art on the John Wood engine, I shudder to think what the cost of it is. We also know from experience that big is not always best, sometimes a pea shooter ex manifold can make the car drive better due to it helping to give the engine a better spread of mid range torque. The down side is they don't look as good when the bonnet's opened.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    The 140 bhp dyno sheet looks a little misleading with the blank piece of white paper in the top right corner. Power and torque figures look to have been done by a felt tip pen, the torque curve becomes the power and vise versa, very confusing at first glance. The figures there are nothing more than a fast road engine on 40's, I doubt it would have been fitted with 50's at the time.
    Er........that's because its fake / tongue in cheek / hand drawn / modified................passes for humour round these parts!

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    256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Arrgh sarcasm , I'm afraid I missed that too, just thought I was missing a pic 😀
    So was miniliteman's request for uncorrected printout not understood or just dodged ?


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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Er........that's because its fake / tongue in cheek / hand drawn / modified................passes for humour round these parts!
    Bahahahahaha, did you really say that?

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    Er........that's because its fake / tongue in cheek / hand drawn / modified................passes for humour round these parts!
    Is this a serious discussion or are we just taking the Piss, probably so according to some that have posted.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    Is this a serious discussion or are we just taking the Piss
    Both!

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    So was miniliteman's request for uncorrected printout not understood or just dodged ?
    Dodged for sure.

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    .
    Last edited by Miniliteman; 01-10-2017 at 21:01. Reason: double post (again not my fault)

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    Re: 256 bhp 2.1 pinto????

    Now we are just taking the piss.....clearly.

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