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Thread: Holbay Cylinderhead

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    Holbay Cylinderhead

    Hi Guys

    In the 70's Ford Homologated the 16 valve Holbay Head for use on the RS2000 Escort Mk1

    I need as much info as I can get on this head.

    How many manufactured.?

    Valve angles

    Pictures of the head.

    Are there any of these heads still around.

    Any pictures and info will be very much appreciated.


    Thanks



    Henry

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    did that head not evolve into the warrier head?

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by graham bahr View Post
    did that head not evolve into the warrier head?

    Yes you are correct Graham the holbay 16v head was actually designed to fit a saab engine with almost exactly the same bore spacing and head bolt spacing.
    Warrior took over the holbay head and now the head is still produced by Connaught engines.

    http://www.connaughtengines.co.uk/warrior.asp

    They are very expensive though so be prepared for a shock when you get a quote lol, I think its something like 5K for a kit to build your own motor based on your own pinto block and crank.
    They are far superior to a N/A cosworth head because they have much larger ports.

    The heads are mainly sold for historic rallying and the holbay rocker covers must be used to pass the regulations.

    There was an artical in a recent classic ford about the warrior head and Connaught engines.

    Have a look at this vid on u-tube, 300bhp 2.4 warrior in the hands of a serious pilot over here.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d01VBR5nKPwYouTube - Simon McKinley Ford Escort Mk2 Early 07 Hillclimb Season VPV.

    Jason.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    This ia an origional i think?



    And a layer holay one

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    No the Warrior head did not evolve from the Holbay head, they are completely different. Holbay were still selling their head when Warrior started producing theirs. The only link between Holbay and Warrior came about in the late 80s when Holbay purchased a number of Warrior heads for an open wheeler category which never got off the ground. The whole concept of the Warrior head being correct for historic racing (provided it has the Holbay cover) is just plain wrong (someone successfully convinced the hcrt there in the UK they were the same). Put a Warrior head and Holbay side by side and you will see they are nothing alike, infact the Warrior head is closer to a YB than the Holbay.

    I don't know where you got the story about the Saab engine (maybe that does apply to the Warrior head) as the Holbay head was designed by Ford to fit the Pinto block from day one.

    BTW, The head bortaf posted in the first picture is mine, the other head is the same style of head, only setup for a wet sump engine.

    As for production quantities I've heard as many as 15 and as few as 8 produced depending on who you talk to (Holbay heads that is, there are probably hundreds of Warrior heads about). I don't have valve angles, but I can post some pictures showing the cylinder chamber etc.

    Recently two of these heads were sold, infact there is a link around here somewhere to one of them, the other was reputedly sold for around the 8000 Euro mark (I'm sure the seller comes on here from time to time and could check the accuracy of that)

    Cheers

    Justin

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    Yes you are correct Graham the holbay 16v head was actually designed to fit a saab engine with almost exactly the same bore spacing and head bolt spacing.
    Warrior took over the holbay head and now the head is still produced by Connaught engines.

    http://www.connaughtengines.co.uk/warrior.asp

    They are very expensive though so be prepared for a shock when you get a quote lol, I think its something like 5K for a kit to build your own motor based on your own pinto block and crank.
    They are far superior to a N/A cosworth head because they have much larger ports.

    The heads are mainly sold for historic rallying and the holbay rocker covers must be used to pass the regulations.

    There was an artical in a recent classic ford about the warrior head and Connaught engines.

    Have a look at this vid on u-tube, 300bhp 2.4 warrior in the hands of a serious pilot over here.

    YouTube - Simon McKinley Ford Escort Mk2 Early 07 Hillclimb Season VPV

    Jason.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Some pictures of the head chambers and camshaft towers showing bracing to stop flexing at high rpm ...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Holbay head bracing.JPG‎  

    H2.jpg‎  

    H3.jpg‎  

    Last edited by dingo_boy; 12-09-2008 at 04:35.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    They are far superior to a N/A cosworth head because they have much larger ports.

    I have to disagree with this, the Cosworth head will give more power ultimately and is also much more reliable.
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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Dino Boy/Justin and others

    Thanks very much for the info and pictures posted.

    Reason for my request is:

    We race a Mk 1 Escort in the local Classic Saloon (Pre 1977) championship. Currently we use a + - 1850cc X flow but need to find lots more power.(Currently about 175 bhp)

    We are allowed a Pinto which we will probably bore and stroke to 2.3 litre. I've obtained a copy of the homologation papers for the Holbay head. Local rules re cylinder heads read as follows.

    " Cylinder Heads may be substituted for another type manufactured by the same manufacturer as long as the camshaft position and number of camshafts and number of valves remain the same as the original"

    Our intention is to "use" the rule and fit a YB head to the car. Therefore all my questions re the Holbay as we might have to prove to local officialdom that we are just replacing one 16valve head for another.

    As it is Cosworth YB engines were never available in S A and we will have to import one from the U K., but it will be very much cheaper than trying to find a Holbay head.

    Anyone know of a good cheap Y B head lying around.?

    I've compared pictures of the combustion chamber layout of the Holbay and the YB and they look virtually identical.

    Could it be that Cosworth used the basic Holbay design and just adapted it for mass production?

    B t w the valve angle on the YB is 22.5 degrees. Could anyone confirm the Holbay valve angle. It looks identical to the YB.

    Thanks for info provided by everyone.

    Any further info & pictures highly appreciared.

    Can also be E mailed to me at henryk@nedbank.co.za

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    this head is a ford cast head as it bears there cast number
    ford did do things for others one of the main people in the 70s was lotus.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    I have to disagree with this, the Cosworth head will give more power ultimately and is also much more reliable.
    A 2046cc warrior engine can produce 270bhp in hill climb tune,
    try getting that out of a cosworth yb head.

    The cosworth yb head was designed for forced induction and therefore it has small ports and valves compared to an atmo engine.
    The yb is perfect for turbocharging but not so good for atmo.
    The most I have ever seen or heard of from a 2046cc atmo yb is 250bhp in full race tune, much bigger valves, ports opened up to the limits, 12.5 to 1 comp and twin 50's.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Henry,

    I'll try to dig some up some more photos for you of the Holbay, valves etc. I believe the original Cosworth N/A YAA head was developed independently of the Holbay (ie. Cosworth did their own development) and from what I've read/heard Stuart Turner or Peter Ashcroft or someone at Ford saw the head and wanted it for the Sierra (someone can correct me here I'm sure).

    The Holbay head was designed by somone at Ford and cast up by them, however they were sold off to Holbay when they decided not to develop it further (or so I've been told). Holbay ended up using them in a March Formula 2 car, and selling them to customers. Now they are a very heavy thing, much heavier than a YB head as they are much wider and taller. The Ford part number is not too dissimilar to a BD head part number, the story goes that Ford were developing the head in preparation of the BD being outlawed due to homologation reasons of running a 2 litre when the RS1600 was delivered with a 1600cc unit. Again these are stories I have gleemed from people over the years who worked at Holbay, or knew someone who worked at Ford so I can't reliably say some of this is 100% factual.

    Cheers

    Justin
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Holbay On Stand.JPG‎  


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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Hi Justin

    Thanks for the info & picture.


    Any additional pictures will be appreciated.


    Sent you a PM


    Henry

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by henryk View Post
    We are allowed a Pinto which we will probably bore and stroke to 2.3 litre. I've obtained a copy of the homologation papers for the Holbay head. Local rules re cylinder heads read as follows.

    " Cylinder Heads may be substituted for another type manufactured by the same manufacturer as long as the camshaft position and number of camshafts and number of valves remain the same as the original"

    Our intention is to "use" the rule and fit a YB head to the car. Therefore all my questions re the Holbay as we might have to prove to local officialdom that we are just replacing one 16valve head for another.

    but would this be allowed as the mk1 escort never had a cosworth yb, just an 8v pinto.

    if you was to change the cylinderhead you would only be allowed another single cam 8v head.

    if you are saying you are going to fit a cosworth yb in the 1st place what is stopping you from using a modern more powerful engine?
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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by POO SLINGER View Post
    but would this be allowed as the mk1 escort never had a cosworth yb, just an 8v pinto.

    if you was to change the cylinderhead you would only be allowed another single cam 8v head.

    if you are saying you are going to fit a cosworth yb in the 1st place what is stopping you from using a modern more powerful engine?

    I think what henryk is saying is that 'in theory' his mk1 'could' have had a twin cam Holbay head fitted, so this is the basis for him trying to get the YB head allowed. Or did I read it wrong ?

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by Gmac View Post
    I think what henryk is saying is that 'in theory' his mk1 'could' have had a twin cam Holbay head fitted, so this is the basis for him trying to get the YB head allowed. Or did I read it wrong ?

    thats how i read it too

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    was this because the head was avaliable before 1977?
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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Hi,

    some photos of the Holbay head we had for sale are here:
    http://forums.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=124216

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Graham Bahr and Gmac, you are 100% correct. Because the Holbay head was homologated for the RS2000 Escort in 1974 it was quite possible at the time to legally compete in a 16valve Holbay engines Escort. As local rules allow for replacement heads with same no of valves, cams in the same position and from same manufacturer we have applied to use a YB head. As the rules stand we are in the clear, but before we go to the expense of importing a YB head, porting it, converting it to solid lifter etc we want to make 100% we will be allowed to use it.

    Truth be told the rulemakers left us Escort guys a gap in the rules. They were not aware of the Holbay homologation and will probably try and find reasons not to allow the YB.

    Therefore my request for pictures and as much technical detail on the Holbay.

    By the way local rules require that a period (pre 1977) block be used, so "technically" we cannot use a 205 block, but we'll get around that problem later.

    Thanks for all the info end pics.


    Henry

    Cape Town

    South Africa

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Graham Bahr and Gmac, you are 100% correct. Because the Holbay head was homologated for the RS2000 Escort in 1974 it was quite possible at the time to legally compete in a 16valve Holbay engines Escort. As local rules allow for replacement heads with same no of valves, cams in the same position and from same manufacturer we have applied to use a YB head. As the rules stand we are in the clear, but before we go to the expense of importing a YB head, porting it, converting it to solid lifter etc we want to make 100% we will be allowed to use it.

    Truth be told the rulemakers left us Escort guys a gap in the rules. They were not aware of the Holbay homologation and will probably try and find reasons not to allow the YB.

    Therefore my request for pictures and as much technical detail on the Holbay.

    By the way local rules require that a period (pre 1977) block be used, so "technically" we cannot use a 205 block, but we'll get around that problem later.

    Thanks for all the info and pics.


    Henry

    Cape Town

    South Africa

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    as far as i can see there no reason why you shouldnt use a pre 205 block as long as your not going to try and run a 93 or 94mm bore, afterall when holbay made these heads there was no such thing as a 205 block

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Graham unfortunatly we'll be running 94.5mm with capacity close to 2.3L
    Henry K is our research and rule's guru in our team - in case u'r wondering whats going on here.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    blimey 94.5 even a 205 block is going to have thin cylinder walls by that point, me thinks your going to have to liner a block

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    My humble apologies - just checked again, the bore diameter is 94mm for the Wiseco's.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthVader View Post
    My humble apologies - just checked again, the bore diameter is 94mm for the Wiseco's.
    94mm is a bit optomistic with a pre 205 block, fair play for trying tho.
    Might be best to get it tested after boring, x-ray testing or something mad like that.
    Or just grind off the 205 letters lol!

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Have a look at this new vid of Simon.

    300bhp warrior engine with a true warrior behined the wheel!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9DQ2...eature=relatedYouTube - SIMON MCKINLEY KNOCKALLA 2008.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    RWD - I'm sure we'll get some intracate piece of pipe or something to "hide" the 205 lettering.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Hi to Dingo Boy & other clever people.


    Has anyone ever compared the cumbustion chamber side of the Holbay Head thith that of a YB Cosworth?

    I've put the pictures side by side and it's exactly the same, except for the shape of the water jackets. Have a look at the Holbay pic posted by Dingo Boy earlier in this thread.


    Another very interresting fact I discovered yestersay (probably known to all of you)

    Part number cast into the Holbay Head is:
    73 JF 6090 AA

    Part number cast into Cosworth YB Head is:
    86 HF 6090 A.

    Could it be that the YB is just an updated or modernised version of the Holbay?

    Did Cosworth perhaps just take the existing Holbay design and adapted it for mass production. (removable cam caps etc?). Not that Cosworth would have admitted it.

    Why would the part numbers be almost identical?

    Can a N/A Cossie be seen as an evolution of the Holbay given similar part numbers?.?



    Regards




    Henry

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by henryk View Post
    Another very interresting fact I discovered yestersay (probably known to all of you)

    Part number cast into the Holbay Head is:
    73 JF 6090 AA

    Part number cast into Cosworth YB Head is:
    86 HF 6090 A.

    Why would the part numbers be almost identical?
    Hi,

    that's just how the Ford partnumbersystem works: 73 (86) is the year 1973 (1986); 6090 is the partno of any cylinderhead and AA is the first version of the part.

    There were (at least) 2 version of the Holbay cylinderhead, one for a 2 litre engine (or up to 2 litre) and one for the 2.3 litre. If I remember correctly we had a 2 litre head and Justin has a larger head but maybe he can confirm (or not) that.

    Leon.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Hi Leon/Henry,

    That is something new to me Leon, I certainly wasn't aware there were two versions of the head. I did notice both your head and mine have the same part number (I just looked at the photo you posted when you sold your head).

    Haven't had an opportunity to put the heads (Cosworth and Holbay) side by side as yet, hopefully will do one-day.

    Cheers

    Justin

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    A 2046cc warrior engine can produce 270bhp in hill climb tune,
    try getting that out of a cosworth yb head.

    The cosworth yb head was designed for forced induction and therefore it has small ports and valves compared to an atmo engine.
    The yb is perfect for turbocharging but not so good for atmo.
    The most I have ever seen or heard of from a 2046cc atmo yb is 250bhp in full race tune, much bigger valves, ports opened up to the limits, 12.5 to 1 comp and twin 50's.

    I would do some more research on what you have just said before making bold statements as it can be done quite easily if you know what you're doing just Mark Cogan what he's seen since being in oz


    Danny

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Still have 4 inlet and 4 exhaust valves from the Holbay engine.
    If there's anyone who can use these you can have them for postage costs. (PayPal)

    Leon.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by danny m View Post
    I would do some more research on what you have just said before making bold statements as it can be done quite easily if you know what you're doing just Mark Cogan what he's seen since being in oz


    Danny

    Show us the proof of your "easily tuned" 2.0 YB with over 250bhp then ted

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    What would you like?
    Have a look at this for starters

    http://www.rsmotorsport.com.au/forum...pic.php?t=2139

    Danny

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post

    Show us the proof of your "easily tuned" 2.0 YB with over 250bhp then ted
    Tis true,

    Danny's car would need to b e detuned to get to 250bhp, and it's under 2.0, it revs to 10,000rpm, and is by far the best atmo YB I have seen to date.

    I am sure Clint and the HT boys can also back up just how good an NA YB can be, as long as you know what you are doing,
    and Danny definitely knows what he is doing with these things
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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by 2quick4u View Post
    Tis true,

    Danny's car would need to b e detuned to get to 250bhp, and it's under 2.0, it revs to 10,000rpm, and is by far the best atmo YB I have seen to date.
    There is a lot involved in getting that sort of power out of a N/A yb, in fairness that motor must have cost a fortune if it revs to 10,000rpm, I know I could get 250+ bhp from a N/A yb but it just doesn't make sense to me, all that the time any money
    spent on tuning a N/A YB seems like a bit of a waste to me, a vauxhall XE engine would give you far more power for less money and a std XE head flows far more air than a std yb head.
    280bhp is very acheivable with an XE or duratec motor.
    The problem with a N/A YB is that the ports cannot be opened up enough to get that sort of power from a 2.0
    For a 2.0 16 valve N/A motor I would sooner an XE or duratec anyday.

    My opinion is that YB's should use forced induction, the engine is ideal for this given its strength and with a big valve head they can flow more than enough air for big bhp turbo applications.
    That same head that you say makes over 250bhp would make 600bhp at the very least with a turbo setup.

    Thats just my opinion.
    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 03-10-2008 at 13:42.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    The problem with a N/A YB is that the ports cannot be opened up enough to get that sort of power from a 2.0
    I am not sure where you are getting the info on the head flow, the YB is one of the best see below for flow rates :

    Engine STD in/ex Fully Modified in/ex
    YB 122/95.9 191.5/133.4
    XE 137.9/108 158.4/131.4
    YD 152.9/102.4 179.2/137.6

    I have just finished a head for my Orange mk2 and have a very good flowing head, more in fact than a rousch/mountune modified Duratec one by a long way.
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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    I am not sure where you are getting the info on the head flow, the YB is one of the best see below for flow rates :

    Engine STD in/ex Fully Modified in/ex
    YB 122/95.9 191.5/133.4
    XE 137.9/108 158.4/131.4
    YD 152.9/102.4 179.2/137.6

    I have just finished a head for my Orange mk2 and have a very good flowing head, more in fact than a rousch/mountune modified Duratec one by a long way.
    What size valves are you using and what size are the ports at their smallest point?

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint View Post
    Engine STD in/ex Fully Modified in/ex
    YB 122/95.9 191.5/133.4
    XE 137.9/108 158.4/131.4
    YD 152.9/102.4 179.2/137.6
    I see you got all those flow rates from CNC porting uk
    You are comparing the flow rates of a big valve YB head to a std valve XE and Duratec!

    I must say those figures are very impressive, where are all the 300bhp 2.0 N/A YB's hiding?

    The ports must be very thin after all that porting, I wonder what valve sizes he is using, it says 35 and 31mm but that is std YB so it must be at least 36 and 32mm if not bigger.
    The inlet port would need to be 29mm diameter! that is a hell of a lot of material to remove.

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    I have heard the YB was designed to be a NA head by Cosworth - dono if thats just pub talk

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    Re: Holbay Cylinderhead

    As I said fully modified heads, the YB big valves are 36mm inlet and 32 exhaust are the big valves, I took the flow figures from the big valve versions from XE and YB the YD cannot really take bigger valves.

    The head I have just done for the Orange thing is 29mm inlet and 27mm exhausts I will stay with standard valves as they are supurb quality as standard.

    The truth although not may people will like it is that there are no 300BHP 2.0's that run pump fuel... simple... unless of course you are using some wiered dyno corrections, we use SAE over here.
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    [B]Engine Parts for most makes, all Ford parts kept in stock, Pinto, Xflow, YB, V4, V6, Zetec, Dratec, Wiring Looms Plugs, Plug Kits and Loom Products, Head Refurbishment and Porting, Engine Rebuilding Services.
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