New EMS: MegaSquirt killer

[Jeroen]

Hi all,

I like to pressent the new EMS system KdFi.



It is a FULL management system.
I am working on an english translation on my website (http://www.bs-autotune.nl).
Anyway. It is based on an MS2 processor. It is a bare board with all components fitted. But excluding housing. It is SMD soldered so it is not a kit, it is ready to install in a box and wire it to the car. I have the manual here:
http://www.bs-autotune.nl/pics/KdFi/...320English.pdf

So: It is the MS2 processor. But the rest is enhanced. So it is not a copy, it is the better version. Insiders know MS has some issues. We have solved that on these versions. We have implemented the folowing features:

- full compatible to MSextra Software (Megasquirt®)
- MS2 onboard / Firmware MS2extra
- free Software / Open Source (MegaTune, MegaLogviewer, Tunerstudio)
- Fuel Table 16x16
- Ignition Table 12x12
- USB Conector (stable!)
- Dimensions only 100x120mm
- Widebandlambdacontroller JAW on Board (JAW Processor not included)
- header for JAW display
- Upgradeable up to 8 single coils (6 coildriverchanels are available but require patching and skills...)
- Knocksensor Input
- supports low impedance injectors
- supports 2 und 3 wire Fast Idle Valves
- user programable Relayoutput
- electronical boost control
- Tacho output
- permanent Barometric correction prepared
- Rev input via: VR-Sensor, Hallsensor or Coil at "Fuel only use"
- supports CAN Bus

The only thing you have to do is install it into the casing of your old engine management system, or like I have done: fit into a universal box. I can also do this for you like like on this pic with megasquirt compatible connector + Wideband connector.

It also fits into a motronic housing:

Here is a close-up of the connections of the board. The high-current grounds have seperate lugs to have a good connection.

Known tuningsoftware can be used. Here is a screenshot of the Tunerstudio software:


If you like it, feel free to start a group buy !

Selling price is 249 euro. But for international shippings out of europe I can take 19% tax of. Shipping will be around 30 euro worldwide. Shipping to european countries will be cheaper though. Starting at 10 euro.
If there are any questions, I'll be happy to answer them.

I hope to welcome you on my website. You can find some weird transformations over there !

http://www.bs-autotune.nl

[neilm]

If you have gone this far, why dont you just box it ?

Makes it a proper product people can buy and install, I'm interested but I dont want to have to mess around trying to find a box that fits.

Just a suggestion.

[dangerousdave]

He says he can box it for you neil. I guess he is trying to save the customer and himself time and money if they are planning to fit it in the standard ecu case or something like some people do

Looks good though best of luck with the venture

[wildo105e]

Very interesting

[Tinde]

Is it accepted by Bowling and Grippo?

[alladdin]

Is it accepted by Bowling and Grippo?

i was wondering that myself. since it uses m/s programming code then it would effectivly be "ripping them off" if it doesnt i would think.
i beleive bowling and grippo are happy for any deviants as long as they retain the motherboard,(this doesnt) this guarentees the development doesnt get too (even more)fragmented.

in what way is it improving on ms2? which "issues" does it overcome , i thought most were software related?

interesting tho.

nielm, why are you interested in this while generaly being,er shall we say not so m/s friendly

[Jeroen]

Well, it is not a copy. It shares the processor. Circuits are defenitly different. USB onboard, better tach. I started up the BMW3.0 CSi today and got it to run the very first try. The engine was taken out of a 530i. All wiring was new. I have never seen such a stable tach signal on a MegaSquirt.

I don't know what B&G thinks of it. I might have waken them up ? I am not the developper allthough I did some recomendations. I also recomended a case... But this is the bare board and it is developped to fit into motronic and other ECM housings. So wiring looms can be maintained. When it is a succes there might be a system with a case. But it would cost more. The alloy casing I bought was 30 euro. If you want it supercheap you can buy a plastic box and solder the wires straight on without a connector. Then you might have done it supercheap but you still have a superb product.

I really liked the way it performed today. USB is working super-stable. Engine was running like it was installed in the 530i on motronic. Or a little better :-)

I love it and I use it for conversions that I do for custumers. I hope you'll see the potential for your project. It is the cheapest in the market, I think. Cheap doesn't allways mean poor quality. I think this system works better then the MegaSquirts I used to work with. But I am not objective. What is objective: they are certenly more bang for buck. Good circuitery, well build and loaded with options.

[andrewr]

Well, it is not a copy. It shares the processor.

Its a copy. It may use a different board and circuitry but the brains is megasquirt.

Its something I have real problem with.. and I'd say B&G will.. I'm a bit out of the MS loop, but last I remember they were getting trademarks registered to start taking legal action against mobs like this. And I would, its theft of IP.

It not only fragments MS development, but it also means that funds don't get back to B&G to spend on development, paying for the forums, websites etc. A lot of people don't realise the development time and $$$ going into ms at the moment.

But thats just my 2c.

Cheers
Andrew

PS I'd like to look at the schematics and see how different it is. I bet 90% is the same as MS with a different board layout.

[muckerbarry]

I’ll have to agree with andrewr, it is most definitely a copy, or more accurately, a rip off.

To be honest I can’t see why anyone would go to the bother of developing a new circuit board when the current B&G line up is extremely well designed, stable, and excellent value for money, with simply phenomenal forum support.

If someone wanted to make a worthwhile contribution to the DIY EFI community their time and effort would have been better spent developing the current MS line up, unless of course they want to profit from B&G’s years of hard work to line their own pocket.

If you looking for cheap EFI, buy a MegaSquirt.

End of Rant,
As you were….

[Jeroen]

Do you actualy USE a megasquirt ?

If you buy one you have to put it together yourself. Most of the people I know fail on the first board or have tons of trouble.

If it is so well designed, where are all the extra's like knock sense, switching tables, launch, baro-correction, wideband support onboard, etc. etc. ? Where are the positions to place extra ignitor drivers when you finaly stop running on a dizzycap ?

You cannot be sereous ! I guess if you see 3 banana's you buy the one that is more expensive then the other ? Even if it is smaller ? Just becouse the small and expensive banana was there first and it is more expensive so it must be good ?

I am sorry for you mate... I install these systems for a living, you can check my website. I have a lot of MegaSquirt installations om my record. But the new systems give me more bang for buck and I have better results in stability, form factor and features. I would not buy one of those Megasquirts anymore untill they change their design (after what ? 5 years ?) and come with something that rocks my world.

Aren't we just looking for the best features, the best quality ? Don't we want the best price ? We can spend our money only once and not all of us have MoteC money ?

You can call it a rip-of, whatever. Most of the circuits are changed, no... Enhanced. It is just up to you.

As for the support forums, since MS is running the same processor, all the support is there... ON THE SAME FORUM. I am sorry mate. Judging like that will keep you in the '60's or so.

[4drmatt]

If you buy one you have to put it together yourself.

This is what has always kept me away from megasquirt.

The kit for sale in this thread seems like a good solution to the above problem albeit a "rip-off"

[wildo105e]

True MS can be bought as a kit if you want and have an interest in building it to learn. You can also buy one built and tested by people who develope the code and contribute significantly to the MS developement etc.
No names but they can be found on the MS forums

[andrewr]

Do you actualy USE a megasquirt ?

If you buy one you have to put it together yourself. Most of the people I know fail on the first board or have tons of trouble.

Yes I use megasquirt, have done on many different cars and have built my own.

That said, you CAN buy megasquirt pre-built and THERE IS a surface mount pre-built megasquirt board.

If it is so well designed, where are all the extra's like knock sense, switching tables, launch, baro-correction, wideband support onboard, etc. etc. ? Where are the positions to place extra ignitor drivers when you finaly stop running on a dizzycap ?

There is a (small) proto area and extra boards can be fitted (these can be ordered from the vendors pre made). These extras have come about through development and will likely be included in MS3.

You cannot be sereous ! I guess if you see 3 banana's you buy the one that is more expensive then the other ? Even if it is smaller ? Just becouse the small and expensive banana was there first and it is more expensive so it must be good ?

I am sorry for you mate... I install these systems for a living, you can check my website. I have a lot of MegaSquirt installations om my record. But the new systems give me more bang for buck and I have better results in stability, form factor and features. I would not buy one of those Megasquirts anymore untill they change their design (after what ? 5 years ?) and come with something that rocks my world.

Aren't we just looking for the best features, the best quality ? Don't we want the best price ? We can spend our money only once and not all of us have MoteC money ?

You can call it a rip-of, whatever. Most of the circuits are changed, no... Enhanced. It is just up to you.

It is a rip off or copy, you choose. It is cheaper because they haven't had to spend any money to get the code, chipset and most of the schematics. It doesn't support the development of ms.

Its not like choosing between two bannanas, that is an overly simplistic example. I don't choose Megasquirt because it is the cheapest Megasquirt-based ECU, I buy it because my dollars support the developers, and the community benifits from development I do.

As for the support forums, since MS is running the same processor, all the support is there... ON THE SAME FORUM. I am sorry mate. Judging like that will keep you in the '60's or so.

You missed my point. I know the support is there, my point is YOU AREN'T PAYING FOR OR SUPPORTING THESE SERVICES. THE PRODUCT DOES NOT SUPPORT THE DEVELOPMENT OF MEGASQUIRT.

I'm not going to post any other replys to this topic because I'm just going to get upset. This ecu is a COPY and is THEFT OF INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY. Unless of course the manufacturer has written permission from B&G, which it would seem they don't.

Cheers
Andrew.

[muckerbarry]

Yes I do use a MegaSquirt, it does about 5000 miles a year, never misses a beat.

I was going to do a long winded reply, but it would just be a repeat of Andrew’s points.

I never said that your ECU was inferior to the MegaSquirt, I don’t care how good or bad it is, my gripe is the use of the MS firmware, and of course some of the circuits, as you say, “most” have been “enhanced”.

The MegaSquirt may be a little more expensive, but the extra money goes to further development, and to the people who rightly deserve it, i.e. those who done the original design.



P.S. The same forum support won’t be there, mention that you are using a non-MS board on a MS forum and see how much help you get.

P.P.S. Don’t you don’t need feel sorry for me, but thanks anyway for your concern.

[alladdin]

a rather hot topic it seems

out of interest jeroen, in what ways is it improved? i ask since ms has most if not all the features you mention, even map switching, i thought someone of your experiance might have known this.

im guessing most of the circuit design/schematics are the same? (even if advanced) otherwise the software wouldnt work with it, would it?

there are several aproved sellers of ready built m/s units in the uk. maybe not in holland?

[Jeroen]

Ok, very nice for all the people that stay loyal to B&G. If they had came up with the GPIO like 2 years ago I would be in there with you. I am not going argue with you about wether it is ethical or not. I did not made the board, so I actualy don't feel responsible for it.

But what IS happening: the quality of the MS in The Netherlands by several kitchen builders is very poor. I have made these boards myself and had a large support forum in the Dutch language. So I very much supported the "community" aswell. Although I have requested to become a dealer, I never got answered. I don't know why.

Because I can work with MS very well, I was asked to come to several projects to do the tuning. Most of the time it was not more then trouble shooting and getting the car to run because there was a lot wrong with the quality control of the kitchen-builders. So I ended up losing business over these folks AND doing their work: helping their custumers out of trouble.

I ran into this new board and I thought, heey, this is perfect. All the "extra" circuits on it that would make the board very expensive for less then a STANDARD Megasquirt. Also good positioned ignition drivers, The formfactor makes it fit into any OEM housing. This one makes my job (implementing management systems into cars of custumers...) a hole lot easyer.

Silly of me to think you would see it like I see it ? My appologies. I guess you still have to cramp all your circuits on the proto.

By the way.. I have noticed that the V3.57 is more stable in RPM over the V3.00. For difficult installs (Citroens with no cranck pulley) I had to use the V3.57 to get it running. Strange, isn't it ?

If you like to stick with B&G, I don't mind at all. In my proffesion I have learned that I have to get the best available stuff that can be bought for the least ammount of money. That is what the consumers want. And in fact I keep them from buying stuff that in SOME CASES are made on kitchen tables by people with no electronic skills and are just to make a couple of bucks on these kits. I might show you some pics...

[Jeroen]

Here are the kitchentable builder pics.

Weird place for extra components... Patch cables all over the place. Transistor leads waiting to snap.


More patchcables just loose in the box.

Dirty PCB (uncleaned, bad soldering)

Missing components to save a couple of cents and to work faster...


And this is very common. I am sorry. The people that build their first boards are even doing worse. A lot of them don't even work. You can read that in the excelent support forums ?

[alladdin]

you could have just said
" im not answering those questions"

[alladdin]

just for comparison a fully built ms module in uk is circa £290 with onboard wasted spark option.

http://www.extraefi.co.uk/ms1_products.htm

[dangerousdave]

I know if i was thinking of giving £290 for a ms in the uk i would pay the little bit extra for a branded ecu which lots of rr operators like to use! The price of this one is a fair bit cheaper that the ms, and if you dont feel the need to stay loyal to b&g (which i wouldnt) then i dont see any problems, except maybe support should something break down inside

[Jeroen]

you could have just said
" im not answering those questions"

You just compared a MS1 with this MMS that has the same prcocessor as the MS2. I don't think I can explain it that way you will understand, if you cannot understand that difference... I am sorry mate.

You just compared a hand-build unit to a well designed factory made unit. I know The guy from the link you sent in is doing a good job, offcourse I have seen his products on some project that needed a little tweak to get it to work. There is no way he is able to go along with this board. He would be out of business I am afraid.

Also: Are we comparing euro's with the GBP ?

250 euro is 210 GBP in the worst rate-converter that I could find. I think it is even less. Shipping is not that expensive. An other 10-20 GBP.

[neilm]

nielm, why are you interested in this while generaly being,er shall we say not so m/s friendly

I am just a Megasquirt Realist and know from the experiences of my chosen tuner the problems that can arise from poorly built items and the utopia of cheap ECU's for all is far from the reality.

However a professionally assembled item does hold an appeal, because I, like most of us wants cheaper, good quality items, not always possible I know.

[neilm]

Out of interest, what software do you use to map the unit ? Is it the Megasquirt software or has some one developed a new user interface ?

[URATheif]

No-- he's profiting off the sweat of others that's he's put nothing into. There is not excuse for your sorry ethics whether 'you were the guy' or you just choose to resell the units. You have the choice to do the right thing here, and trying to promote obviously ripped off designs from the designers of the MegaSquirt, who have done more for the DIY EFI community than anyone in existence and haven't asked for much in return, well, there is no excuse for it. Expecially since if you, or the designer if it's not you, had been up front with it, they would have partnered with you, but instead, you stole their circuits and then claimed to have done something better that you never would have had the knowledge to do if you didn't copy them in the first place. You owe the sorry existence of your business to them and you turn around and burn them. You'll get yours.

[Bowling&Grippo]

Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo here...

Let us make our comment on this... This unit does not have License Agreement in place for reproducing MegaSquirt hardware. Reproduction of MS requires a specific license agreement for the end product if it encompasses MegaSquirt IP. MegaSquirt hardware and control algorithms are patented, and the code is the respective copyright of the authors.

For those who do not know, MegaSquirt is an EMS where the hardware and software are freely available and documented for users to read, modify, and extend for their own use. Duplication of the hardware for commercial resale is permitted with a license agreement, this is straightforward to obtain (as several have done). In addition, resources for MegaSquirt, including documentation, forum support, etc are funded by the sale of MegaSquirt units and are only available to licensed MS derivatives.

With this said, let us offer a few unstructured sentences on the hardware presented here... We have struggled with the double-edged sword of making the hardware and software for MS easily available to individuals who want to learn engine controls, along with documentation that pulls the whole design together. We could keep everything hidden and secret in order to protect the IP. However, we feel that the subject of engine control is very complex and thus we have revealed the inner working of the unit as an educational tool.

The problem of having the entire project available is theft. This is the double-edged sword aspect in which we struggle with every day. It would be OK if it just affected us.. however, the project is more complex and the effect is greater than just B&G. In any effort, including MegaSquirt, the need for funding is real in order to keep it alive and available for a long time, as well as keeping it improving over time. The proceeds of resales of MS are used to keep forums up and running, fund MegaSquirt meets, and fund future projects (like MSIII, which is moving along nicely and will be a smartly-integrated, fully-functional unit).

In addition, the liberal means for a organization (or person) to become a MegaSquirt reseller has lead to many new companies that make their living reselling MS products - they would not exist today had it not been for the mechanism set in place to become a reseller. These individuals have followed the path of assisting the MS project and are feeding their families on the small profits they earn from the resell efforts they provide. Its a lot of work for the relatively small profit margin they earn. So, not only has MegaSquirt provided education on engine control, it has provided a method for people to make a living doing something the like to do.

So whenever we see a theft of MegaSquirt, we realize that this impacts many people who depend on MS for their income. We also find it real interesting that the theft efforts are always the same - change a few things around and declare it superior. For some reason the theft is always just to duplicate what has already been done. There are literally thousands of different aspects of automotive control that is waiting for someone to tackle (e.g. ion sensing, traction control, etc), but its always a rehash of what's already been done. We all yearn for truly new, not a repeat of the same. But it is easy to produce a rehash (especially when everything is open for view) than it is to come up with something new and innovative - or maybe its lack of knowledge in the areas required to pull a new system together.

Many people know that MegaSquirt is purposely uncomplicated and the feature sets are specifically versatile to allow different configurations. We believe in a modular approach in MS, allowing the user to integrate MS as part of a larger system where the user makes the choices on what to use.

From our "perch" as developers and maintainers of an EMS unit we have learned quite a lot, and we want to comment on a few features that counterfeit units often have:

- On MS products we have kept the RS-232 serial port as the communications port. There is a reason for this and its not that we are too dumb to add USB (or need to wake-up). We realize that serial ports are no longer offered as standard products on laptops. However, the issue is interoperability of all of the various USB devices and the real problems that arise. In many of the products the USB port interface is one of three vendors - Ftdi, Silicon Labs, or Prolific. The issue is that if a user already has another USB device with the same chipset then conflict may occur, it depends on the driver. Its a real issue for people and not an easy one to fix. We have many indicate that they cannot get Ftdi to work but Prolific works, and vice-versa. And if the USB interface chip is soldered down on the EMS, and it does not work with your laptop, then you may be out of luck (but you should demand that the seller either fix the problem or refund the money - hopefully they are still around and have not gone away...).

Serial-to-USB cables are inexpensive (like $10) and are available with different chipsets. And once the Virtual Com and cable work, then all of your RS-232 devices also work. In our minds the correct way to implement USB is with a USB controller and drivers which are developed in-house and the interface is solid for many installations. Using serial port replacement chips can be real support headaches

- Wideband controllers on-board the EMS. Again, its the aspect of choice, and when someone makes this for you you are stuck with it for the long term. I do not know anything about the JAW setup, it may be excellent. And I believe that the developer also posted circuits and schematics. However its the same thing, if it does not work then who do you go to - the JAW person, or the EMS person who put down the circuit? Maybe both point to each other to direct for support? And what if you do not want to use JAW, but maybe Innovate, PLX, etc? What if you blow up the on-board WB controller, who fixes it? If its a SMT board and there is a problem, then its outside of the capabilities of most so the board *must* go back to the reseller for repair/replacement (demand this).

Maybe the JAW developer, who put his resources into the product, swhould get the sale of the JAW controller - instead of being cut out entirely. Again, when it support time...

- The "my tach circuit is better than your tach circuit..." We *love* this one! The reality is that for some installs obtaining a good tach signal can be difficult. And sometimes switching EMS units the tach works. Whats interesting is that in another installation, the exact opposite occurs - the non-working EMS now works and the other one doesn't. Go look on all of the major EMS vendors support site - you will see lots of posts on obtaining a decent tach input. You will also see lots of success stories of working installations. Same thing with MegaSquirt - there are installs with tach issues, an there are many thousands of running installations with no tach issues at all. Its the nature of the beast.

With MegaSquirt the approach is for people to try to understand where the noise is coming from and provide remedies to correct. The MegaSquirt tach input is very sensitive, needed for low-output signals during cranking. It can also pick up noise, so its a tradeoff. But since you have the circuit diagram, and it is documented and understood, you then have the tools to correct if you have issues. Again, flexibility and user-choice is key.

There is a lot to a tah input, noise is one aspect. Noise can be corrected with a filter on the VR input but this then indroduces phase shifts in the signal at higher RPMs - so now the zero crossing has shifted and the timing also shifts as well. Something to watch out for.

Finally, be sure that there is a lot of new items on the horizon, these are new and innovative, not rehashes of whats already been done. The whole EMS thing needs to be taken to the next level.

This is all we have to say on the subject. And we thank those who have supported the MS project.

B&G

[Dave]

Bruce Bowling and Al Grippo here...........

I shan't pretend to understand all that, but thank you for your post.
I think the gist of it is don't steal our stuff, it is illegal, a lot has gone into it and still does. There is a good reason for it.

To anyone else. Keep comments and replies polite or they will be removed.

[Jeroen]

Many conflicting things in the post and in this link:

http://www.megamanual.com/copy.htm

What I don't understand is that I haven't received a message from B&G. But they did not respond to my request to become an official MS distributor also.

Anyway. You got the chance to meet this product. I guess you'll make the right choise for yourself. In my case: I need all the extra bits to get my bi-fuel projects running and it will take me ages to do this on B&G products. For me it is a great product and B&G have left a gap that someone filled up. I can only hope they come up with something that will smash KdFi out of the field. That would mean we have more to play with for less money.

As for the MegaSquirt comunity: it will only grow bigger if more company's start developping hardware for this platform. It will attract more people to it and maybe it will help developing a lot faster. Smart people will even invent great hardware like KdFi or better.. It is sad that some people will lose their income if they cannot go allong. But aren't we sitting on the same piece of hardware for the last 5 years now ? Isn't it TIME for something else ? What about GPIO. Is it there yet ?

I don't see the point of defending MegaSquirt after I have read the "copy" link. There are no big numbers involved in the MegaSquirt project if I may quote them. MegaSquirt is the product that can be bought in dark-alleys. I have seen it happen to a lot of people that I have helped.

I am sory if I got it all wrong. I do not wan't to upset people at all. But I am afraid after I tried KdFi there is no way back to MegaSquirt V3.0 or V3.57 for me... It is just not good enough. I mean: if I have to hack into SMD soldered parts to get a coildriver installed... And then again, there is no room to place one anyway. What are we talking about ? Dizzy / EDIS 4ever ? I hate EDIS and distributor caps... Switching tables can ruin your processor... Why didn't they just made a V3 MS2 processor and connect the stupid processor port to the right pin. And I can go on for a while.

Isn't it time....

[Tone]

blimey if we could stop the chinese copying things, at the end of the day everybody seems to copy everybodies idea's but if it has a patent then thats a different story

[Jeroen]

OR... You have to stay in motion and when your product is copied you introduce something better.... If you sit and wait till it happens you are a sitting duck waiting to get shot at.

I have the same thing. I developped LPG injection systems that are based on MegaSquirt. Since it is open-source there are a lot of folks that try to duplicate my system and even sell it to custumers like they invented it. These are the same people that build dodgy MegaSquirts. So that is why I have to come with something that is better then MegaSquirt, better then anyone else can offer. I have found better places to buy my pheripals to offer them cheaper then the competition does. Besides that I also have the knowledge to install the systems and trouble-shoot them if anything fails.

What happens is that people turn up with stuff the bought themselves. MegaSquirt kits, LPG injectors, reducers etc. In the end they are having troubles getting it to work... And show up and requesting me to help them out. I never told them it was easy. I also never told them it was this hard to get right. The thing is, I am one step ahead. I can deal with the problems they have. Therefore I am not realy woried about being copied a lot. As more people convert cars, the more known it gets and the more requests I will receive.

This is the same for MegaSquirt. If KdFi is a succes and will show up on trackdays (chips and carburator are the most I have seen so far..) people will get to know free-programmable management systems. If the look for the cheap alternative they'll get to MegaSquirt anyway since this is the best known brand at the moment. KdFi is not a treat at all. The only thing is: you cannot buy a dodgy KdFi because it is factory made. And it has most of the extra bits onboard...

Have it your own way, but I think it is time for B&G to make a huge leap. KdFi might not be the only "copy" around. And personaly I don't think it is bad for the MegaSquirt comunity at all. It might be bad for B&G. But it might also get them to devellop new things we are all waiting for.

[Dan]

yeah good idea that.. so what your saying is i should steal all your money and possessions because it'll make you work harder to replace them? brilliant logic.

when all said and done youve stolen protected property, there is no justifying that whichever way you look at it.. no matter what your product does it is based on their ideas and development which you cannot then leagally sell on.

and your not really doing yourself any favours by insisting what your doings ok, let it go and leave the thread be

[Clint]

I have really skipped through this am I right in saying someone is ripping off the worst engine management system there is ? ..... ingenious !

[andrewr]

the worst engine management system there is ?

Comments like this piss me off almost as much as people ripping off megasquirt.

[dangerousdave]

Why should it piss you off that someone says its shit, if you know its not and are perfectly happy with it then whats the problem. Thats like someone telling you you bought shit wheels, what does it matter if you like them....unless deep down maybe you agree but dont want to admit it to yourself?!

[andrewr]

Guess it doesn't matter, but I always find people make a lot of generalised and uninformed comments about megasquirt. Saying a set of wheels look shit is a bit different to saying something is the worst ever. There are some applications where Motec, Autronic, Haltech etc are better, but for the bulk of mildly tuned road cars megasquirt is great. It is certainly not the 'worst ever ecu'.

Cheers
Andrew

[wildo105e]

Not wanting to drift off the thread but. Each ECU must be viewed in it's intended aplication. MS was developed as an educational tool. The top ECU's are commercially developed and thus have to perform to reflect that cost. The top ones motec etc have been used on WRC cars so have to be good.
Would i spend this amount of money on my £250 pinto with a wobbly turbo ?


MS serves it's intended market "low budget tuners" very well and all that have used it and put in the effort to understand all seem more than happy with it.

I am sure if you ask all the top end rally team techs what they prefer i am sure they will say what they use until something goes wrong with it.

Everyone has their opinion and that is what makes the world go round

[Clint]

My comments were far from ‘generalised and uninformed comments’ I map a lot of cars and I have never come up against an ECU as bad as the Megasquirt, I don’t mean its design I mean the fact that it rarely works first time and often goes wrong, I know of 2 that went wrong at high expense.
I had a look at one that was purchased from a ‘dealer’ it had lasted about 11 months but upon inspection the soldering looked ok, lots of horrible flux everywhere that hadn’t been cleaned off properly but it hadn’t been sealed from the elements properly and the use of data plugs and sockets had meant they were not sealed from the damp and the cheap electroplated coating on the pins had gone very dull.
People look at it as the cheap option which it simply is not, some work ok and they are the lucky ones, but mostly they are built by amateurs with little knowledge of soldering or electronics and as a result will never work as intended.
The crazy thing is by the time its built and installed it can work out dearer than commercially available ECS’s or even a retro fitted original manufacturers system.
My advice is only go down this route if you’re a competent, can solder very well, good at electronics, understand engine management systems and you cannot afford anything else, even then expect it to go wrong at some point.

[wildo105e]

My advice is only go down this route if you’re a competent, can solder very well, good at electronics, understand engine management systems and you cannot afford anything else, even then expect it to go wrong at some point.

I think this does some up MS. The problem is people who don't understand the pitfalls fully get let down by enthusiasm and good intent. Take on MS if you want a technical/mental challenge and are prepared to work at. If you are not interested in that buy a commercial unit and have it tuned by someone.

[andrewr]

Clint I guess I have just had a different megasquirt experience to you. I have built, installed and tuned countless units and have never had any major dramas (daily drove a ms car for 2 years).

A lot of the problems arise from people thinking megasquirt is a cheap ecu. If I added up all the time I spend on hardware and code it would have been cheaper to buy an ecu, but I enjoy learning and to me it is a hobby. The plus side is now i know a lot about ecus, code, electronics and can easily fuel inject any car.

Wildo105e's comments are spot on.

Anyway sorry for getting off topic..

Cheers
Andrew

PS I don't know who the dodgey dealer was, but there are always idiots building these things. There are a few authorised dealers who produce a quality product which will not have the problems you describe. Or buy an SMD version which is factory built, not hand soldered.

[alladdin]

clints post does tend to be all too common, and as in most other cases is, in my opinion rather flawed. i beleive that to slate a product due to the inability of the builder is a little unfair.

even the basic instructions state... clean the board, seal the board, keep it out of the elements.

would you plug your 110v tools into 240 and blame the drill ? did you leave water on your car prior to painting and blame the paint ?

mk1 gaz often slated the cosworth turbo engine as one that "blows up after 2 goes down the strip" . in his experiances this was indeed true, so is the cossy motor a duffer clint??

i chose the ms as i fall into the competent inquisitive learner bracket, i doubt i would have got a management running or even looked at a zetec install otherwise as i simply didnt have the cash. and im sure mine will indeed be cheaper...........

one thing i will say is that its not as simple as some make out, tho it could be. i think they should streamline the options to consentrate the help and lessen the complexity of choice.

[wildo105e]

Now we have a dilemma. The problems with build quality are now supposed to be addressed by the very product that started the thread!

On the opposite of the coin what would have happened if nobody reversed engineered the IBM pc.