YB headbolts on a pinto

[theduck]

I made use of the 20% off everything on eBay voucher rhatbwas doing thenroubds yesterday and ordered a load of bits for my build including a Victor Reinz group a cosworth headgasket which came as a set with Victor Reinz head bolts, which I have just realised might not be suitable for use with my pinto head? Can anyone confirm either way? It seems from looking at pictures of the two the only difference is the yb ones come with washers that the pinto ones don’t? So I assume at the worst I just bin the washers?

[Graham]

yb bolts are longer than pinto, by quite a bit iirc

[theduck]

Bugger. Might ping them a message and if they haven’t dispatched already see if they’ll swap them for pinto bolts.

[Dyno]

Cosworth Group A gasket got the wrong water channels for the Pinto. Despite is will seal perfect, the water is not flowing well at the end of the engine. Ff you make a strong, high power Pinto, round number 4 you can have water with high boil temp. Not a big problem with lower powered Pinto's but not perfect as it would be with a normal Pinto gasket.

Overlay the gaskets and you will see what I mean. The Cosworth has the water control holes in the head (casting) the Pinto controls with the gasket.

[theduck]

Oh expletives. I’d read that the cosworth gasket was the one to use instead of the pinto one! Could have saved myself £50 and a load of hassle just buying normal pinto bits by the sounds of it.

[theduck]

Confused now, seems to be lots of conflicting info about using a yb gasket or not. Though consensus seems to be that the pinto gasket is at its limit at a bar of boost?

[Clint]

We use the Group A Gasket on all pinto's no problem at all, line the gaskets up and put a sharp drill through it and add the hole.

[theduck]

Thanks Clint that’s good to know. Is there just the one hole missing?

[Dyno]

There are holes to large in the gasket. Not all the water is still willing to flow to the rear of the block. In a NA engine it will probably not and never hurt, in a turbo engine, the rear of the blok is running hotter. I could easy hear the engine boiling after a few minutes shut down on the dyno. It's quite normal after a few full turbo pulls but a lot worse with Cosworth gasket.

If you are worried about blowing head gaskets in a turbo engine, use Cometic gasket and done. In a NA engine you will not blow a Felpro, O-ring or Reinz without a reason but I also use Cometic for these engines, just to be "good save".

[escortinadriver]

I've always removed the bung in the block on the exhaust side and fitted a barb or an fitting to ensure adequate water flow past no. 4 cylinder.
I take the water from here instead of the inlet.

[theduck]

I've always removed the bung in the block on the exhaust side and fitted a barb or an fitting to ensure adequate water flow past no. 4 cylinder.
I take the water from here instead of the inlet.

This one? What size thread is it?



Sounds like a good solution. Do I need to put the extra hole in the gasket if I do this?

[escortinadriver]

That's the one.

I think this is the thread size - http://www.burtonpower.com/threaded-...ket-ft582.html

The theory being, that if the water is from here instead of the inlet manifold, water is circulated throughout the block more effectively, eliminating the hotspot around cyl 4.

Cant answer your question about the YB gasket though.

Shaun

[hawk1903]

I've always removed the bung in the block on the exhaust side and fitted a barb or an fitting to ensure adequate water flow past no. 4 cylinder.
I take the water from here instead of the inlet.

Do you mean taking the hot water from here to the heater matrix then returning it to the water pump ?

I was wondering, would it be a wise idea to direct the water coming out from the heater matrix to the top of the radiator in lieu of sending the matrix water back to the water pump in a way bypassing the main radiator ?
Please read the second question; in order to add extra cooling performance to the system for extreme hot climates etc.

[theduck]

I have mine a bit like that at the moment. I don’t have a heater matrix so the inlet coolant connection goes to my turbo which then goes into the top radiator hose. Seems to work well.

[hawk1903]

I have mine a bit like that at the moment. I don’t have a heater matrix so the inlet coolant connection goes to my turbo which then goes into the top radiator hose. Seems to work well.

Then, may be running a line from drain plug to turbo then to the top radiator hose may even bring advantages if the radiator is capable enough as you may be supplying relatively cooler water to the turbo.
However, using an internally clean heater matrix can always be advantageous since the heater matrix also acts as the part of cooling system.

[theduck]

Cheers guys. I think I’ll do this.

Block off the inlet manifold coolant connection
take feed from the water jacket to the water pump or top rad hose?
Take turbo coolant feed from radiator bottom hose/drain plug
Return turbo coolant to top rad hose.

[hawk1903]

Cheers guys. I think I’ll do this.

Block off the inlet manifold coolant connection
take feed from the water jacket to the water pump or top rad hose?
Take turbo coolant feed from radiator bottom hose/drain plug
Return turbo coolant to top rad hose.

Well, I think there is simply no point taking a line from drain plug to the water pump.
Also, I am not sure if taking a low temp water into the turbo is a good idea !! because of a kind of shock cooling. ( just thinking and I have no practical experience on this area )
However, somehow it makes sense to return a hot line or heater matrix return to the top of radiator.

[Clint]

The Pinto does heat soak quick that cast iron head isn't the best at heat dispersion, we don't have problems until your over 350ft.lb torque so we just stick with that. The main problem is exhaust valves, you need to run a nice fat seat.
We also take water from the rear of the head should we want to push things, works well as we see using a thermal camera.

[hawk1903]

The Pinto does heat soak quick that cast iron head isn't the best at heat dispersion, we don't have problems until your over 350ft.lb torque so we just stick with that. The main problem is exhaust valves, you need to run a nice fat seat.
We also take water from the rear of the head should we want to push things, works well as we see using a thermal camera.

Hi Clint,

Where do you connect the water line from the rear of the head ? Is this solution for turbo’d Pinto or n/a ?

[Clint]

Hi Clint,

Where do you connect the water line from the rear of the head ? Is this solution for turbo’d Pinto or n/a ?

I use a core plug adaptor.

[hawk1903]

I use a core plug adaptor.

Thank you very much but where do you connect that line to ? ( to the top of the radiator? )

[theduck]

Well, I think there is simply no point taking a line from drain plug to the water pump.
Also, I am not sure if taking a low temp water into the turbo is a good idea !! because of a kind of shock cooling. ( just thinking and I have no practical experience on this area )
However, somehow it makes sense to return a hot line or heater matrix return to the top of radiator.

That makes it simpler then, from the water jacket to the turbo to the top rad hose?

The Pinto does heat soak quick that cast iron head isn't the best at heat dispersion, we don't have problems until your over 350ft.lb torque so we just stick with that. The main problem is exhaust valves, you need to run a nice fat seat.
We also take water from the rear of the head should we want to push things, works well as we see using a thermal camera.

Where on the the head? I’m hoping to achieve 300lbft/300bhp but might be limited at the top end as I am using a wrx td04 which might not flow quite enough to make 300bhp.

Edit. Must type faster. Unfortunately I can’t do that as I haven’t got the clearance at the rear of the head to fit a core plug adaptor. I think that with the water jacket mod should work.

Back on the head gasket. I’m going to use the cossie one, seems lots of high power pintos do so successfully and it’s already one the way. Just need to make the extra hole Clint mentioned.

[Clint]

At 300 you wont need to. just run it all normal.

[hawk1903]

That makes it simpler then, from the water jacket to the turbo to the top rad hose?

I thought so. However, here at TS, there are really well experienced friends who has done high bhp turbo conversions.




Where on the the head? I’m hoping to achieve 300lbft/300bhp but might be limited at the top end as I am using a wrx td04 which might not flow quite enough to make 300bhp.

It has got to be the “ core plug “ at the rear of the head as said by Clint.

[theduck]

At 300 you wont need to. just run it all normal.

When you say it run all normal? Just run the coolant from the inlet manifold? I assume I still need to mod the head gasket? I should add this engine is in a kit car with a small engine bay which used to heatsoak badly in traffic, I’m hoping I will have fixed that with the bodywork mods but still rather be in the safe side so anything I can do to help is worth doing.

[Clint]

Fit a Craig David Pump will stop the issue in traffic.

[theduck]

The problem in traffic was hot air getting trapped under the bonnet. I did a few experiments to test it and found that with a better fan and no bonnet on it was fine. Hoping my new bonnet will give it enough places for the air to escape to still be ok.

[therealpinto]

I used to run YB headgaskets in my turbo Pinto for years and to be honest I didn't really have any overheating problems or issues that I can blame the head gasket for.

Still, I went with a Victor Reinz Pinto gasket for my new build (see build thread) and so far it has held up. Did some dyno pulls at over 2 bar of boost before the winter.

As for the coolant routing, I also have a thread on that with regards to my issues with over-cooling using the turbo core cooling. The lastest setup that seems to work uses the block port mentioned above, and takes that to the turbo core and then into the connection at the water pump that comes from the heater core.

Finally, with regards to head bolts, I have only ever used standard Pinto non-stretch bolts in my turbo Pintos.

Gustaf

[theduck]

Thanks Gustaf. I have a victor reinz cosworth group a head gasket and victor reinz pinto bolts, so will use these in this build. Still debating with myself over the coolant connections, I'm either going to put it back how it was (inlet to turbo, turbo to top rad hose) or replace to the inlet to turbo with the block port you are using.

[Dyno]

Anyway, possible there may not be real overheating problems, fact is the water is traveling to fast from pump back to the radiator, not passing as much water to the rear as with the standard setup. You can compare the Cosworth head and see where Ford had the intention to pass most of the water. The holes in the head control the flow. For a Pinto you need to compare with the gasket. It's the gasket who does the water flow control. With a Cosworth gasket fitted on a Pinto, there is no longer water control to the rear of the engine.

[therealpinto]

I agree and maybe I wasn't clear enough; Even though I can't say I saw any problems with the YB head gasket, I wouldn't advise using it. At least not in an engine where money is spent... A Pinto Victor Reinz gasket is cheap compared to an engine.

Gustaf

[Dyno]

Victor Reinz did made Special Pinto gasket, this one has the water flow pattern right. it's not the Cosworth Group A. I don't know this gasket is still in production. It had a very strong fire ring, just like they made it for Volvo engines.

Was this the one you where using in the test. They won't give issues. I've been using them in my very early Pinto days.

[therealpinto]

The lastest ones (I tend to get two...then it won't let go when you have a spare!) was bought from Brands Hatch Performance:
https://shopbhp.com/collections/pint...imply-the-best

At £15 it's almost too cheap? Don't know if it is anything special about it really. But it seems to work so far.

Gustaf

[theduck]

That’s the same as I ran last couple years. I was only running low boost though and there does seem to be advice that the pinto ones fail at higher bhp/boost levels.

[Dyno]

The one I was talking about was totally different. It had some kind of machined fire ring (not bended over metal plate), looks more like one cutting lip at each side. In a alloy head like Volvo it was indeed cutting a few hundreds into the alloy. They where not so cheap.

The Reinz gasket in this link is good one, at least as good as a Felpro, if not better.

[therealpinto]

Way back in my early turbo Pinto years I first used standard Elring or whatever Pinto head gaskets. I blew one, tried a Felpro and didn't get that one to seal properly at all. Then I made a quick test with a used (!) YB headgasket and it worked. For the next engine builds I used standard YB gaskets as they were in good supply at the time (a national engine builder sold gasket sets with uprated gaskets and standard ones were surplus).

When I built the new engine last winter I decided to try the Victor Reinz above, because of the water passages. It has not blown during 2017 at least. I used around 1.4-1.5 bar for most of the summer and went over 2 bar on the dyno in October. Long term we will see.

But I do think most of my early problems with Pinto gaskets came from some bad mapping/ignition control and possibly also less than ideal head surfaces.

Gustaf

[Dyno]

The Reinz in your link is one for a Pinto, not Cosworth, and does have the water channels right. So should have best flow started from standard.

I've been using Cometic most of the time when I expected hard work for the engine but dut fitted many Felpro's in all other situations. Do believe, both Reinz and O-ring make very good gaskets.