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Thread: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    I had a thread running which covered the rebuild of my rally car: http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=122375

    Now that the rebuild has sort of finished, I thought I'd start a new thread here recording our progress with the car and its ongoing evolution.

    A quick summary to bring everyone up to date:

    Mine and Mark's last event before the rebuild was the North West Stages at Blackpool in Feb 2007. We retired from that one with a shattered differential. That prompted an axle upgrade, which led to a conversion from leaf springs to a coil-over six linked setup. At the same time I was talked into upgrading the engine to a new Duratec... by my friend Paul Dunnell who builds Duratecs. In summary, the car has had a total rebuild.

    Anyway, fast forwarding to January of this year, the car was just about finished and so we entered the South Downs Stages at Goodwood. We saw this as a bit of a test as its a nice smooth circuit and isn't too harsh on the cars. Net result was a DNF after stage 3 due to: running on 2 cylinders, very poor brakes, oil temperature too high, water temperature too low and a drive train vibration that was so bad I couldn't get my hand on the gear lever at over 70 mph.

    So, there was a list of things to sort out - A new coil pack, new brake pads, a change of master cylinders, propshaft re-balance and a water cooled oil cooler. We did all of these things and then booked into a track day at Snetterton to give it another test. This went a lot better. We had a small problem with a fuel injection rail cracking - and the brakes still weren't that good, but it was certainly quick.

    So... on to our first 'proper' event, the Malcolm Watson Spring Stages at Sculthorpe, last weekend.

    In an attempt to make the brakes better (and following some good advice from some of you chaps http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=142022), I replaced the EBC front brake pads with some Ferodo ones after scrutineering on the Saturday evening. This made quite an improvement. I did a few laps of the service area to try and bed them in - and then we were ready for Sunday.

    I was a little cautious on the first stage, but we soon had the car sliding all over the place. Probably not the quickest way to get through the stages, but loads of fun! The brakes were working well and there was loads of power. However, halfway through the morning, while waiting between the stage arrival and the start, the throttle started to stick. The heat was getting into the throttle cable and it was going tight. A slight touch on the pedal and it would hit 5 or 6k rpm and then very gradually return back to idle. We were in 'dead time' at this point, so we pulled out of the line of cars waiting to start, opened the bonnet and let all the other cars go through. We were hoping that it would cool down a bit. By the time all the other cars had gone through it was a little bit better, but was still sticking. We did the stage anyway - and for the most part it was OK - although there were a couple of hairy moments when it stuck open going into corners. Running at the back meant we did catch quite a few cars, which was fun because we had something to aim for, but undoubtedly cost us time getting past them.
    After that stage we removed one of the throttle cables (there are two) and wrapped the remaining one that wasn't sticking so much with heat reflective tape. After that it was pretty much fine.

    Stages 1 to 4 were a single lap (around 7 or 8 miles I think). The surface was very abrasive concrete and we used up one set of part worn tyres on those first 4 stages. Stages 5 to 8 in the afternoon were each two laps. We put brand new tyres on before stage 5 and they were pretty well destroyed by the time we got to stage 8. We ran the last two stages with a slow puncture in one of the rears and by the time we finished there were strands of wire sticking out of the fronts.

    We came away with a 3rd in class (2 seconds behind our friends the Mills brothers) and 8th overall. We had a superb day.

    Our next event will be the Honington Stages, Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk on the 3rd May. Just a spanner check and sorting out the throttle cables to do before then...

    Here's a couple of pics.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image001.jpg‎  

    image002.jpg‎  

    image003.jpg‎  

    image004.jpg‎  


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    Spanner Monkey rallyladgaz's Avatar

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    nice result cant wait to read the next round best of luck

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    Bodger Wicked's Avatar

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Nice jump Sweet car

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Lovely car John

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    Racer Decade Plus User PERKY's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Good write up and good result
    Keep the event reports coming

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Excellent Result Jon, i really enjoyed it last last year i wore out 14 tyres lol luckly only 2 were new! I loved all the Twisty bits and hairpins around the buildings just needed about 30 more BHP :-) Duratec Power next year for me i think!!

    I cant find results how did Andrew Thompson got on in his Focus? Cancel That Found the results!!
    Last edited by BDA_IT; 17-04-2009 at 10:01.
    Going Sideways is the way Forward!

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Cheers all

    We gave the car a check over last night and replaced the throttle cables, wrapping them in a heat reflective sleeve this time.

    The front brake discs have quite a few cracks in, so we'll need to replace them before Honington.

    On closer inspection, its clear that the front tyres wore quite unevenly. You can see from the pics that there is a heavily worn strip around both the outside edge and a couple of inches in from the edge - but the bit between and the rest of the tyre isn't as bad.

    The tyre compound was probably a bit too soft for the abrasive surface, but I'm still not sure why they wore so unevenly. We ran them at around 29-30 psi hot (about 25 cold), which is what we usually run them at. The rear tyres were similar pressures and wore evenly.

    I'm wondering if we need to run a bit more camber...? any ideas/suggestions?

    Other than that, no real damage/problems.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMAG0060.jpg‎  

    IMAG0063.jpg‎  

    IMAG0066.jpg‎  


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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Well done Jon, love the jump shot

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User cossie matt's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    What compound were they Jon? What width are they and what width rim are you on?

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by cossie matt View Post
    What compound were they Jon? What width are they and what width rim are you on?
    They're Dunlop CR311 x12. 200/530/13. I had some on 7" wheels and some on 8". The ones on the 7" rims came off worse, but I used those on the longer stages, so they would have probably got hotter.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Bit of bad news over the weekend... the Honington Stages have been cancelled. Still.. I suppose it gives us more time to get the setup right.

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    Pit Crew Decade Plus User cossie matt's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by JonSegger View Post
    They're Dunlop CR311 x12. 200/530/13. I had some on 7" wheels and some on 8". The ones on the 7" rims came off worse, but I used those on the longer stages, so they would have probably got hotter.
    I use the same on 8's (15's though)and they seem fine, I'm just wondering if the 7's are a bit narrow as it looks like they might have been rolling a bit to produce that funny wear pattern?

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by cossie matt View Post
    I use the same on 8's (15's though)and they seem fine, I'm just wondering if the 7's are a bit narrow as it looks like they might have been rolling a bit to produce that funny wear pattern?
    Yeah, that's quite possible I guess. I've recently bought some more 8" wheels, so I can sell the alleycats on now.

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    Mechanic Barn's Avatar

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    29PSI is way too high Jon.

    I would look at 24 front and 22 back.

    Myself and Huw James run at 21PSI all round and works stunning on tarmac

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by Barn View Post
    29PSI is way too high Jon.

    I would look at 24 front and 22 back.

    Myself and Huw James run at 21PSI all round and works stunning on tarmac
    OK, thanks... do you run the same Dunlops? I'll give that a go next time.

    (you are referring to the pressures when they're hot, are you..?)

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    Mechanic Barn's Avatar

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    No mate

    Dunlops are not for me anymore, i run Michelin and Hancook now.

    But yes, i did run the CR311 and ran them at those pressures hot.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by Barn View Post
    No mate

    Dunlops are not for me anymore, i run Michelin and Hancook now.

    But yes, i did run the CR311 and ran them at those pressures hot.
    That's great. Cheers.

    How do you find the Hancooks in comparison to Dunlops? I think they're a bit cheaper aren't they?

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by JonSegger View Post
    That's great. Cheers.

    How do you find the Hancooks in comparison to Dunlops? I think they're a bit cheaper aren't they?
    After i di my setup on the Fiesta (RWD) we went out at MIRA on the new Hankook W50 inters. We had so much grip that we bent the panhard rod into a banana

    Definately as good as the Dunlops IMHO

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Time for an update...

    We finally got the new front discs - they needed a little machining to fit. The exhaust has been ceramic coated and I've also fitted new strengthened steering arms.

    The old discs were cracked:


    Newly coated exhaust:


    Plus a bit more heat protection around the inner wing and throttle cables:


    New steering arms:


    Work in progress:






    New discs:




    And a few posing shots:






    We then took it for a test drive. The exhaust collector was blowing, so I need to take the headers off again and wipe a little exhaust paste around the joints. We then need to set up the front suspension/steering geometry and corner weights. Hopefully we'll get this done before the Woodbridge track day on 9th August and then its on to the Richard Burns Memorial Rally on the 15th/16th at RAF Marham.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Cracks in the old discs look scary

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Hi Jon,

    What are the disks off of and what size are they?
    i'd be interested in your old alleycats if you'd be interested in sending them to Ireland!

    Alan.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by dobuy View Post
    Cracks in the old discs look scary
    Yeah, I didn't want to risk having them shatter going into a corner - that could be nasty.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by muckerbarry View Post
    Hi Jon,

    What are the disks off of and what size are they?
    i'd be interested in your old alleycats if you'd be interested in sending them to Ireland!

    Alan.
    They're Tarox G88, BMW E30 ones - 260mm. They just fit under 13" wheels. They needed re-drilling and machining for the Ford hubs.

    I have 5 AlleyCats. 4 of them match and the other has a slightly different centre, but is fine for a spare. I suspect carriage would be pricey though..? I'll have to weigh them and then get some prices.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    i need 8 inch wheels not 7 inch, if their 8 inches coud you get a shipping price for me thanks.

    alan.

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by muckerbarry View Post
    i need 8 inch wheels not 7 inch, if their 8 inches coud you get a shipping price for me thanks.

    alan.
    Ah, sorry - the AlleyCats are 7x13s.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Bummer, thanks anyway!

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    having a similar problem with the exhaust on the 2.5 ! the bonnet cant be raised up anymore so looks like the exhaust needs to be coated. paul dunnels a top bloke and i even mentioned i knew of your car when we picked the engine up from his sounds like you two are good mates

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by Wessie View Post
    having a similar problem with the exhaust on the 2.5 ! the bonnet cant be raised up anymore so looks like the exhaust needs to be coated. paul dunnels a top bloke and i even mentioned i knew of your car when we picked the engine up from his sounds like you two are good mates
    Ah yes, Paul is a great bloke and is very clever. Your 2.5 sounds like an awesome engine. Have you had it running yet? Where's the pics?

    The exhaust is tricky. The coating looks pretty and I'm sure it has done some good in bringing the temperature down, but it still feels pretty hot in the engine bay. The aluminium heat shielding that I put under the bonnet has stopped the fibreglass getting too hot so far though. The other option will be to tank cut a few holes in the bonnet or fit vents to let a little more heat out.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by JonSegger View Post
    Ah yes, Paul is a great bloke and is very clever. Your 2.5 sounds like an awesome engine. Have you had it running yet? Where's the pics?

    The exhaust is tricky. The coating looks pretty and I'm sure it has done some good in bringing the temperature down, but it still feels pretty hot in the engine bay. The aluminium heat shielding that I put under the bonnet has stopped the fibreglass getting too hot so far though. The other option will be to tank cut a few holes in the bonnet or fit vents to let a little more heat out.
    its scared the owner so much, he doesnt want to take it into the forest anymore ! it is a brilliant engine and just pulls and pulls its already got huge brakes put on but i think proflex and wider rubber is next on the shopping list so the power can be put down properly dukes stages and the blackhorse rally (both in the IOM) will be the only events the car will do this year so it will be great to watch it driven in anger
    some bonnet bulges have been ordered to try and save the bonnet from warping

    and pics will be up soon good luck on the rest of your events

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    So time for an update...

    We spent some time a couple of weeks ago setting up the caster, camber and tracking. We got it set to 3 degrees caster, 1.5 degrees camber and zero toe-in.

    Then, yesterday, we did a track day at Woodbridge. It was great fun, the car was absolutely flying . The main aim was to check everything was OK ahead of the Richard Burns Rally, this coming weekend.

    We experimented with different tyre pressures, trying to overcome the bad tyre wear problems we'd had before on the fronts. Taking the temperatures across the surface of the tyre, we were getting a fairly consistent reading . The insides were a degree or two hotter, but I guess thats to be expected with the camber.

    The tyres did still wear a bit on the outside edge though and it was still pushing on and understeering a little. You can see from the pics that the tyres were rolling quite a bit - and yet these are on 8" rims, so they're the right size for the tyres.





    We were running the Dunlop CR311s and tried various pressures - between 21 psi and 28 psi, but it didn't seem to make a massive difference. I think its better than it was, but still not quite right. It was also lifting the inside front wheel quite a bit - which of course is going to increase the load and wear on the outside front. Maybe stiffer rear springs are required..? They're currently 200lb I think.

    Anyway, the rest of the pics from the trackday can be found here: http://picasaweb.google.com/jon.segg...eat=directlink

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    I was going to pop over Jon and finally get that go but didn't feel too great so never made it out of the house. My mates Phil (big chap) and Jo do the burger van. He said you were having a good tussle with Milinou's (sp) Red race car. Impressive if you were hanging on to that as it competes in the Ford Saloon Car Champ doesn't it?

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    Mechanic JonSegger's Avatar
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by Kieron View Post
    I was going to pop over Jon and finally get that go but didn't feel too great so never made it out of the house. My mates Phil (big chap) and Jo do the burger van. He said you were having a good tussle with Milinou's (sp) Red race car. Impressive if you were hanging on to that as it competes in the Ford Saloon Car Champ doesn't it?
    Yeah I think it does. Actually, Mark (co-driver) was driving my car most of the morning and passed the red one. In fact, the only car that overtook us all day was a Caterham that I let past so I had a bit more room to show off round the corners

    Very happy with the performance, just need to get the handling a bit better.

    (Good burgers by the way. Compliments to the chef. )

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by JonSegger View Post
    Yeah I think it does. Actually, Mark (co-driver) was driving my car most of the morning and passed the red one. In fact, the only car that overtook us all day was a Caterham that I let past so I had a bit more room to show off round the corners

    Very happy with the performance, just need to get the handling a bit better.

    (Good burgers by the way. Compliments to the chef. )

    I caught but never passed the red escort, thought i better pull in before my ambition overtook my talent.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Saw this at the meet in Colchester the other night, and more importantly..heard it! Sounds awesome, hopefully when I do some trackdays I'll see it hoon round! Or I'll see the back of the car anyway

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    What's the spec on the engine? Which throttle bodies did you use? Any photos of the engine bay showing the clearance between inner wing and throttle bodies? Cheers!

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolution66 View Post
    What's the spec on the engine? Which throttle bodies did you use? Any photos of the engine bay showing the clearance between inner wing and throttle bodies? Cheers!
    It was all supplied by Dunnell. I think he has his own throttle bodies made now. There's some pics in this thread showing the clearance before the airbox was on - there wasn't a lot of room.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    The Richard Burns Memorial Rally - 15/16 August 2009

    A quick update on how we got on...

    We'd missed last year's event because the car was still in bits - so we were really looking forward to this one. The whole event went pretty smoothly for us and was very well organised. We even had a Red Arrows fly-past on the Sunday.

    I was probably a bit too cautious again during the early stages, but I was also still struggling a bit with the handling. The car was understeering quite a lot in the tighter corners and starting to wear the front tyres again on the outside edge.

    There were 8 stages - 4 each day. The stages were all around 12 or 13 miles and it was very hot.

    At the end of day one we dropped the front suspension about 10mm. This didn't cure the problem entirely, but it did help a bit.

    Our only real 'near' drama was about 3/4 of the way through the last stage. We were flat out on a long wide straight, but when I tried braking for a 90 right into a narrow concrete road, the pedal went to the floor and we had no brakes. Luckily, we could carry on through the cones and then spin it back round again. We did the last few corners with no brakes.

    When we got back to service we could see brake fluid over one of the front wheels - so a pipe or fitting must have split or burst (at the time of writing I still haven't had a chance to investigate further).

    We finished the weekend 15th overall and 7th in class. We were both pretty happy with that, especially considering we were seeded 46th and there were about 100 competitors.

    Our next event will probably be the Lynn Stages in November.

    Some pics...















  38. #38
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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    All cars suffer from understeer, even F1 cars, and its caused simply by too much speed. You probably just need to try a little less harder on the tight corners. I have to really control the red mist when I'm out in the Fiesta, but slower entry, and modulate the throttle pedal continously (very quickly, on/off/on/off trying deeper and deeper throttle as the corner starts to unravel itself) pays dividends for me.

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Try left foot braking into the corner John, it may help, it may not, won't hurt to give it a try

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    Re: My mk2 Rally car - Duratec power

    Well done Jon, great pictures there.

    Give the handbrake a nip, it works for the Irish boys

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