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Thread: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

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    Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Hi all

    I would like some opinions on gearboxes for a Pinto turbo (or essentially an 8v YB...) with reasonably high torque (416 Nm or 306 ft lbs).

    I have been running a stock Sierra Cosworth T5 but it's getting hard to get it into second gear, when cold you need to double clutch (warm is pretty much OK). While I do suspect this may be a bent shift fork I am a bit hesitant to rebuild a gearbox that probably is marginal.

    The Gearboxman/Quaife gearkit with uprated forks is the "easy" solution, since it is a "bolt on" solution, no other changes necessary. But I have not heard from anyone running this kit?

    A Tremec TKO 600 is in the same region cost wise, a lot stronger, but also larger (may not fit the tunnel). It also means new clutch and propshaft since the splines differ. Both of these (T5 and TKO) are not known for shifting well above say 6000 rpm.

    Everybody else in Sweden cuts and shuts BMW (ZF or Getrag) gearboxes, but I am not really a fan of welding an alloy bellhousing. Plus, if that gearbox brakes down, you need to weld again = downtime. A bolted adapter plate may be an option. Again, new clutch and prop. So even if the gearbox itself is cheaper (say 1000-1500 USD for a completed kit) it's not that much cheaper than the T5 gearkit (and that will be new!).


    So, motorsport gearboxes. Of course, the sky is the limit but keeping it at tree tops level, there is the Elite IL300 6S. Rated at 540 Nm is should be OK. With Ford type 9 form factor for bellhousing etc. its a rather easy fit. But it's a close ratio 6-speed, I really don't need that with the turbo engine. Price is around twice of the T5 gearkit. Not unreachable but a reasonable chunk of money. And service life of a motorsport gearbox on the street is an unknown.

    What options am I missing?

    See dyno chart, I don't think a close ratio gearbox really helps here? 3.92:1 final drive ratio, 225/45-15 wheels.

    Thanks
    Gustaf

    Click image for larger version Name:	Capri dyno Mitsu 19T 20170927 (Medium).jpg Views:	173 Size:	50.6 KB ID:	82280

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Depends how close the ratios are. The gearbox I am fitting in mine is close ratio but still drops 3000rpm between 1st and 2nd, about 2000rpm 2nd to 3rd and 3rd to 4th and then about 1500rpm 4th to 5th. I imagine that will be quite nice for keeping me in the powerband.

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Wide ratio kit gearing: 1st: 2.915 2nd: 1.932 3rd: 1.323 4th: 5th: 0.8:1
    Close ratio kit gearing: 1st: 2.527 2nd: 1.675 3rd: 1.259 4th: 5th: 0.87:1


    I used some kind of calculator that I found, and if my calculations are correct (shifting at 6000);

    Wide ratio T5
    1st to 2nd drops to 4000 rpm
    2nd to 3rd drops to just over 4000 rpm
    3rd to 4th drops to around 4500 rpm
    4th to 5th drops to around 4800 rpm

    Close ratio T5
    1st to 2nd drops to 4000 rpm
    2nd to 3rd drops to 4500 rpm
    3rd to 4th drops to around 4800 rpm
    4th to 5th drops to around 5200 rpm

    To me it looks like the wide ratio means I'm more in the max torque band from around 4000 rpm. If I shift later I just end up "missing" some of the power band I think.

    Gustaf
    Last edited by therealpinto; 05-03-2018 at 11:14.

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    This graph compares both options



    If you pm me your email address I can send you the spreadsheet. It makes comparing them much easier.

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Ah, much better than my spreadsheet!

    PM on the way in a minute.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Email on its way to you

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    From a cost point of view...modifying a T5 will probably be the best and easiest simply because it doesnt require any external supporting work.

    Any other box will require propshaft, clutch, shifter, mounting etc modifications as well as the box itself....and most boxes as you note will be physically larger.

    And strong boxes tend to get eaten up by drifters too which can push prices up.

    Old Supra R154 was a good one though....but getting very expensive now. 350z CD009 is a popular 6 speed...not sure how easy it will be to fit though and it has an integral bellhousing, although there are workarounds for that and many adaptor kits for other engines ( not Cossie though )

    http://collinsadapters.com/index.php...er-plates.html

    New CD009 for a visual/size

    https://www.z1motorsports.com/manual...on-p-3342.html

    Or an RB25 gearbox might be usable.....as a lot of drift guys get rid of those in favour of the CD009 when upgrading so the boxes might be cheaper. But again..integral bellhousings.

    Or what about the thread elsewhere here where people use the Mazda RX8 gearbox for some swaps? Could that be an option ?
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Thanks, good input. I am a bit reluctant to fit an "old" gearbox like a R154 that may be hard to find again if need be.

    The 350Z CD009 looks a bit promising, need to work a bit with the ratios. Of course swapping "all" things around it and making the adapter is a bit of a turn-off though. I do fear that even though the gearbox is pretty cheap all things around it will make it very close to an Elite gearbox in price when all is ready. The Elite could probably use a Transit or RS2000 bellhousing but then again, it is around 34 mm taller than a type 9 (can't find the height of a T5) - may not fit the tunnel.

    I have been thinking about the RX8 but I see no solid proof that it will take 400 Nm.

    I am really leaning towards the Gearboxman T5, but would like to hear from someone that has been using it.

    theduck; Our two different spreadsheets give different speed calculations with the same inputs, I need to research them a bit more and see if one is not calculating things right. Will get back on that.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    So, after some checking the data...the spreadsheet theduck sent is great but it doesn't seem to use the "shift up" rpm for max speed calculation in each gear, rather the "rev limit" number. With that sorted I made this:

    Click image for larger version Name:	Gear ratio analysis 1.jpg Views:	139 Size:	84.2 KB ID:	82284

    It shows a standard T5, the close ratio T5 and one of the IL300 versions.

    To me it seems than the wide ratio T5 is what keeps me in the meaty part of the dyno graph the most. Maybe it is the short final drive (3.92:1) that yields these results?

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    There's little chance of a pinto ever breaking a R154...but yes they are no longer a great solution because of the drifters eating them up and sending prices to the moon. The W series are more akin to a T5 in terms of strength and more readily available, I guess because they are less preferable not being as strong as the R154.
    Some info
    http://www.retrotech.co.nz/Tech/Toyota-boxes.php


    Perhaps more local so maybe more readily available...Volvo M90 ?

    And 400Nm isnt a huge ask from a modern Japanese gearbox, also dependant on usage, weight of vehicle it is going in etc.

    But again...sticking with and upgrading the T5 is probably still the preferred option
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    The M90 would be an option, not known for standing abusive gear changes but that's true for the T5 too. But an M90 needs all the same stuff modifying as a BMW ZF or Getrag - might as well do that.

    There is one used CD009 at a breakers, at around 1500 USD. So the new one for 1800 USD feels better but then there's shipping. And the ratios look a bit strange with a rather low 1 st (lower than a type 9?).

    I sort of return to the T5 any way I turn, I feel.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Although it's a few years old now...this guy does a cool walkaround at PRI, lots of options although clearly these are aimed at racers and with a lot of power. Still cool to see.

    If you do a lot of road driving I would not recommend a dog box of any kind though. A modern Japanese or BMW box or something will be hard to beat for nice road driving.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRkoHWnEMAI&t=77s
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    I spoke to a number of gearbox providers (Drenth for example) at the SEMA show in 2017 and there's no shortage of gearbox solutions when you throw a lot of money into the game ;-)

    A friend of mine suggested that I fork out for the "best" and whenever I sell the car (yeah, right) I put the T5 back in and sell or use the gearbox in another car. But I'm not sure I see that happening.

    The car doesn't get that many road miles but still it is a "road car" so it needs to be bearable for street driving. But the rose joints and hard bushes mean it's not "comfortable" so I thing a semi-helical like the T5 kit may be OK.

    There is another project on the waiting list that will be more of a street car so this one can afford to loose a bit in that area.

    Gustaf

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    I wouldnt be concerned about straight cut gears....but avoid a dog box for the road.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    Aisin made the AR5 gearbox which is a modern day R154. Here in Australia they're found in the 06-08 Holden Rodeo and 08-11 Colorado (4x2 work utes) I bought mine a couple of months ago from a wrecker for $350AUD including the tailshaft and crossmember & shifter. The main hurdle is a bellhousing to go from the AR5/ R154 bolt pattern to Pinto block. One would need to be custom made or possibly an adapter plate with a steel BW35 auto bellhousing (Mk1 escort). The manual escort bellhousing is too deep for an adapter plate to work. The AR5 has a hydraulic clutch which I planned to change to cable by getting a simple bearing retainer machined up. My transmission tunnel (Mk2 Escort) would need cutting to accomodate the larger gearbox. My W58 recently failed (bearings) after many years of wear and tear. It's had a fresh rebuild and feels strong but it's hard to know how long it will last with 355hp at the wheels. If it fails again I have a spare W58. If that fails I will pursue the AR5 route
    Last edited by OZMK1; 06-08-2019 at 14:09.

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    R154's are crazy money these days with the drifters etc.

    Although Dellow, Rodshop, Conversion Components etc all offer bellhousing setups for W or 154 to a Pinto and many others.

    Also popular is the Nissan CD0009. Not sure if anyone offers anything pinto related for it though.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: Pinto turbo/YB high torque gearbox options

    An update from my side is that I have had the Gearboxman gearkit in the car since last summer.

    My reflections are that it is a bit on the noisy side for me, acceptable but barely.

    It did not however sort the 2nd gear downshift issue, something I am still chasing.

    For now I will stick with the T5 while thinking about the entire direction of the car. Future developments may lead to other options.

    Gustaf

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