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Thread: YB head or modified Pinto Head

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    YB head or modified Pinto Head

    I'm having one of those moments where you sit and ponder on random topics, and todays is this.

    What are the benefits of a Cossie YB head over a modified pinto head?

    So that is obviously open to a lot of variables, so lets assume we are talking a 300+bhp forced induction setup and that you are starting with nothing so have to buy all parts required for the build. Budget isn't tight, but money is no object either, so you cant justify having a cossie head just because. Aim of the build is to make the best torque for as much as the rev range as possible.

    This is completely hypothetical and just want to create some discussion around it and learn something, because as I said, it is just one of those odd ponderings.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    If money is no object and you want 300bhp on forced induction why not just buy a full YB setup

    I’m no exspecting but would imagine at the very least you would need your pinto to be, cosworth of steel crank, cosworth or after market rods and forged pistons, then you drop a Yb head in you may aswell have bought a YB,

    I imagine graham will be along soon with a proper explanation with head flow rates ect.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Cost would be a big reason not to go that route! As I said, it was just a thought that crossed my mind, cossie heads are so expensive, but do they really offer any gain over a well modified pinto head which can be had for a fraction of the price.


    Just realised i made a typo in the first post and cant edit it, it was meant to be "Budget isn't tight, but money is'nt no object either,"
    Last edited by theduck; 10-04-2018 at 16:35.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Getting 300bhp from a pinto turbo i imagine would be a lot of work and very little work from a cosworth.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by wildo105e View Post
    Getting 300bhp from a pinto turbo i imagine would be a lot of work and very little work from a cosworth.
    I imagine that a pinto head could be made to flow a lot, some people push 200bhp na a na yb will make more but maybe 225/ 250 ish, I guess with forced induction that a pinto will make big power solong as you can keep it from blowing to bits, you wouldn't do it with a blow through carb would think it would have to be fuel injected etc
    Last edited by Warrior; 10-04-2018 at 18:18.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Why would you be worried about blowing a pinto to bits and not a yb? I am assuming you dont mean the heads and I know I failed to give any assumptions for the state of the bottom ends in for these hypotheitcal engines, but lets assume that both bottom ends are built the same standard using equivalent components.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by theduck View Post
    Why would you be worried about blowing a pinto to bits and not a yb? I am assuming you dont mean the heads and I know I failed to give any assumptions for the state of the bottom ends in for these hypotheitcal engines, but lets assume that both bottom ends are built the same standard using equivalent components.
    if both are built the same then theres no difference, the point I was making was a 205 block cosworth yb would be much stronger than a 205 injection pinto,

    if both where built with a cosworth crank and rods ect then theres no difference in the bottom end,

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    to me it doesnt make a lot of sense engineering a 300 bhp turbo pinto, the yb will do that easily and probably more reliably, not because a pinto is unreliable, but a diy turbo pinto install is never going to be a good or strong/well developed as the cossy.

    but as for strength pistons aside a pinto bottom end will easily cope with 300bhp. a few years ago i built a yb using a std pinto block and crank that was making 330 bhp on a very conservative boost map. vizard was tuning turbo pintos to over 450bhp

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    a few years ago i built a yb using a std pinto block and crank that was making 330 bhp on a very conservative boost map. vizard was tuning turbo pintos to over 450bhp
    Thats the kind of build i am talking about! What benefit does the yb head give you in that circumstance over a well modified pinto head? There is a significant difference in outlay between a big valve ported pinto head and a cossie head.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    a big valve pinto flows very similar amount of air to a standard yb head, but a big valve pinto has little material between the valves, running a big valve pinto especially with unleaded inserts is asking for it to crack with turbo heat

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    i think what graham is getting at is that the yb isnt just a head its a whole OE package. as he says, a pinto version will have to be home made and ultimately a lot more work.

    posted too slow !

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    i think what graham is getting at is that the yb isnt just a head its a whole OE package. as he says, a pinto version will have to be home made and ultimately a lot more work.

    posted too slow !
    exactly.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Cheers guys, so it is more a minute reliability than performance gains? As I said it was really just a passing thought. I’m not going to buy a Cossie head and have already had my engine built, so was just idle curiously

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    but on the flip side there are also some pinto turbo threads on here that are a good read .....................

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by theduck View Post
    Cheers guys, so it is more a minute reliability than performance gains? As I said it was really just a passing thought. I’m not going to buy a Cossie head and have already had my engine built, so was just idle curiously
    the yb does have more power potential, but yes id agree its major benefit is reliability and its easier rather than anything else

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    As someone who gas gone the turbo pinto route, you will end up spending much more in the long run.

    If i did it all over again, I would go Cosworth everytime.

    Turbo pinto - for reliability and power you will need custom (or at least I have)

    -rods
    -pistons
    -sump
    -head
    -valves
    -cam
    -inlet (we dont have sierra)
    -injectors
    -ecu
    -wiring loom
    -tuning
    -exhaust manifold
    -turbo

    Plus all the other small things you forget.

    Otherwise, drop in a standard cossie on some management and you will have the same power with reliability but most importantly support, both in tuning and parts.

    If you just want a basic turbo setup, by all means, throw a turbo on the side, but if you want any sort of decent power in the long run, go cosworth, sr20det or something with else with existing parts and support.

    Shaun

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    My first 300 bhp Pinto turbo was actually quite simple. Used YB rods and pistons, standard block, standard crank, standard head (lightly ported, different cam). Engine management (Megasquirt) and turbo (Holset HX32) was the most expensive parts - together with flywheel, clutch and gearbox.

    The engine itself is easily less that € 1000.

    When I started working on that build, you would have to spend at least 2-3 times that to buy a used YB that probably needs a rebuild.

    Now I will not pretend that my 300 bhp Pinto was as durable (but it didn't blow up) or flexible as a 300 bhp YB. If a wide range is a priority a good YB is probably a better way to do what you want. Is it worth the premium in cost? That's up to you and also depends on the going rate for YB parts where you are.

    I would not use a YB over a Pinto turbo, I'd rather work a Zetec or Duratec or just build a small block V8 (n/a) if around 300 bhp is the target. :-)

    Gustaf

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by therealpinto View Post

    I'd rather work a Zetec or Duratec or just build a small block V8 (n/a) if around 300 bhp is the target. :-)

    Gustaf
    I didn't want to get into that debate, but given the cost of cosworth engines these days there are far better base units to concentrate on.

    The cosworth still has that allure to it though.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Like many people my car has been an evolution. 1600 pinto with 4 speed, 2000 pinto with 5 speed, convert to efi using OE Sierra parts and add a turbo, add mappable management, and now it’s current iteration which is steel rods, Cossie pistons, custom head work, big valves, custom cam, a bigger turbo and all the bits that go with a build like that. We’ve managed to get compression to about 8.3:1, and I can’t wait to get it on the dyno.

    Why have I gone this route? 2 reasons really, it’s been fun and a hell of a learning experience, and because in as fed up of hearing people (on another forum) answering the old question of “what should I do to my pinto” with either “fr32 and bike carbs” or “put a zetec in it”. So the original turbo conversion was done with 1 goal in mind, make more power and torque everywhere compared to a pinto with fr32 and bike carbs, and do it for less than those mods cost. And I succeeded. Didn’t quite get the headline bhp figure to match what the bike carbd zetecs were puttting out but I did get lots more torque and was easily a match for them in a straight line.

    This years build original was meant to be just a bit of porting and maybe some bigger valves but keep a stock bottom end. Then 2 things happened. My wife put her foot down and said this was the last year of major projects in this car, and I got some sponsorship in return for some promo work, so I deceived screw it, let’s go all out.

    This has been an interesting thread though, and who’s knows, maybe one day I’ll fit a YB head and go really crazy.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Fair play to you. I have all the core parts for a pinto turbo and it is what i set out originally to complete. Still may complete it one day. Like you self i love the learning experience

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by theduck View Post
    I'm having one of those moments where you sit and ponder on random topics, and todays is this.

    What are the benefits of a Cossie YB head over a modified pinto head?

    So that is obviously open to a lot of variables, so lets assume we are talking a 300+bhp forced induction setup and that you are starting with nothing so have to buy all parts required for the build. Budget isn't tight, but money is no object either, so you cant justify having a cossie head just because. Aim of the build is to make the best torque for as much as the rev range as possible.

    This is completely hypothetical and just want to create some discussion around it and learn something, because as I said, it is just one of those odd ponderings.
    300+ is a vague offering.

    Is that 301...350..400..500..600 ? or more ?

    Ultimately making the power will be easy. A modern high flowing head will make that easier and over a wider rpm range.

    However, selection of turbo will be of equal or perhaps more importance here. If fitments are the same as Sierra etc...then obviously starting with something you can readily buy parts for makes a lot of sense. ie turbo manifolds, and just other general tuning parts.
    These might be less available for the Pinto. A modern 16v head will in general just be more efficient for the engine too...but perhaps you want the visuals of a Pinto ? A pinto would probably take up a little less room in the engine bay if that aspect was a concern.

    But for only 300...even 350. Choose a small efficient turbocharger and it will spool well and make power up to any sensible rpm most would ever need for that power range.

    And likewise, you mention above 8.3:1. For only 300hp you could help liven the engine up by taking that to mid 9's or if that felt like a little much, even just 9 dead.
    No reason for such a low CR these days unless it's running 30-40psi or so
    Last edited by stevieturbo; 14-04-2018 at 23:44.
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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    The original post was really just idle wondering, i half had my setup in mind but I have no intention of spending the kind of money a yb head costs - my whole engine build has cost me less!

    My engine is far from a perfect spec, but it was an attempt to build a good quality engine setup for not a lot of money - two things that don’t often go together, I know. Ideally I would have liked more compression, but I opted to use Cossie pistons and so this limited where we could end up. Time will tell how good it is I guess.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    IMO, spend the money on a good modern turbocharger that will spool very fast as well as meet your power goals.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    For now I have a td04-19t, will see how that goes. As it started life as a stock impreza turbo I have a feeling it might need the exhaust housing porting a bit or changing to an external wastegate or both.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    TD04 will make 300hp on a Subaru at a push, and TBH is a great little turbo. Spools well, makes power and is reliable. And dirt cheap.

    I see little reason why the exhaust housing would need ported for a less efficient engine.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Double post

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Because on the Subaru it is a 13t (smaller compressor wheel) and I have upgraded the compressor wheel and housing to a 19t size, when this is done on a Subaru the exhaust housing is normally either changed or ported as without doing that you get surge under load. I’m going to see how it goes without though.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    I agree with Stevie and Gustaf with this. I have a recently built turbo pinto with 300hp at the wheels. It is a pinto block & crank with YB rods & pistons, and used a 1.6L pinto head to get 9:1CR. Obviously the head needed money spent on it (turbo cam, porting, followers, springs, stainless valves) and accounted for about half of the build cost that totalled 3300GBP. Around 3 years ago I had an opportunity to buy a VERY low milage and complete YB head, pistons & rods, 9 bolt crank for 2000gbp. In hindsight I was silly not to buy it because of the condition. From what I understand the alloy goes soft in YB heads and should be hardness tested before use which can cost up to a couple of thousand dollars. With the YB head I still would have had to have spent $$ on custom hotside, turbo, wiring, tuning, ECU, driveline, injectors etc and a very large added cost would be deleting the brake booster tower and going bias pedal box route. With the pinto there was enough room to keep the brake tower and it looks neat in my MK2 Escort. My turbo is a Garrett GT2860RS and is maxxed out at 300hp. I may go to a GT2871R in future and do a retune. The car runs on E85 20psi Click image for larger version Name:	20180224_223108red.jpg Views:	192 Size:	128.1 KB ID:	82693

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    couple of thousand dollars doing a hardness test? someones pulling your plonker or im in the wrong business.

    there isnt any great (if any) real issue with yb heads going soft anyway

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    90% of the ones I've seen for sale here are beyond it. Very badly pitted. That info I was given re: soft alloy came from ex DJR Sierra team mechanic. The same happens to the ford falcon alloy crossflow heads. They get to a certain age/ milage and the aluminium softens. One of the deciding factors when choosing pinto or not was a phone call to an engine builder who said "iron block & head with a turbo... bullet proof"

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Sorry Graham, that was a couple of thousand AUD and included hardening the head

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    I know there were a lot of used 2wd heads about in the late 80's, early 90's that were off cars that had them replaced under warranty due to the alloy softening, a faults of Coscast. I had one of the said heads on our first NA Cosworth engine and we could never keep head gaskets on the damn thing.

    I have have never heard the story of them softening with age, only when they have been seriously overheated.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by OZMK1 View Post
    I agree with Stevie and Gustaf with this. I have a recently built turbo pinto with 300hp at the wheels. It is a pinto block & crank with YB rods & pistons, and used a 1.6L pinto head to get 9:1CR. Obviously the head needed money spent on it (turbo cam, porting, followers, springs, stainless valves) and accounted for about half of the build cost that totalled 3300GBP. Around 3 years ago I had an opportunity to buy a VERY low milage and complete YB head, pistons & rods, 9 bolt crank for 2000gbp. In hindsight I was silly not to buy it because of the condition. From what I understand the alloy goes soft in YB heads and should be hardness tested before use which can cost up to a couple of thousand dollars. With the YB head I still would have had to have spent $$ on custom hotside, turbo, wiring, tuning, ECU, driveline, injectors etc and a very large added cost would be deleting the brake booster tower and going bias pedal box route. With the pinto there was enough room to keep the brake tower and it looks neat in my MK2 Escort. My turbo is a Garrett GT2860RS and is maxxed out at 300hp. I may go to a GT2871R in future and do a retune. The car runs on E85 20psi Attachment 82693
    I like Pinto turbo engines lot and this one is very nice looking.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    I know there were a lot of used 2wd heads about in the late 80's, early 90's that were off cars that had them replaced under warranty due to the alloy softening, a faults of Coscast. I had one of the said heads on our first NA Cosworth engine and we could never keep head gaskets on the damn thing.

    I have have never heard the story of them softening with age, only when they have been seriously overheated.
    Good info thanks. So 4x4 heads are the pick My high milage/ age comments regarding the alloy falcon heads was misinformation. A quick google came up with this

    "The old wives tale about alloy heads and engines always blowing gaskets cracking and warping all the time keeps doing the rounds.
    It mainly depends on the design on the engine in question, some designs are more suseptable the others. The EA engine is a case in point. The bloody things had a lot of head gasket problems which in turn would cause overheating and then head warping or cracking. It took Ford a while (too long) to solve the problem.
    But the old Crossflow engines were pretty reliliable and providing they were looked after and not cooked there was little difference between iron or the alloy heads for relilability.
    The alloy heads disipated heat better, combustion was a bit more efficent and produced a little more torque. That is not to say you couldn't make an iron head perform better. But would the gain justify the cost? Probably not."


    Quote Originally Posted by onyd View Post
    I like Pinto turbo engines lot and this one is very nice looking.
    Cheers onyd
    Last edited by OZMK1; 19-04-2018 at 11:56.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by OZMK1 View Post
    I agree with Stevie and Gustaf with this. I have a recently built turbo pinto with 300hp at the wheels. It is a pinto block & crank with YB rods & pistons, and used a 1.6L pinto head to get 9:1CR. Obviously the head needed money spent on it (turbo cam, porting, followers, springs, stainless valves) and accounted for about half of the build cost that totalled 3300GBP. Around 3 years ago I had an opportunity to buy a VERY low milage and complete YB head, pistons & rods, 9 bolt crank for 2000gbp. In hindsight I was silly not to buy it because of the condition. From what I understand the alloy goes soft in YB heads and should be hardness tested before use which can cost up to a couple of thousand dollars. With the YB head I still would have had to have spent $$ on custom hotside, turbo, wiring, tuning, ECU, driveline, injectors etc and a very large added cost would be deleting the brake booster tower and going bias pedal box route. With the pinto there was enough room to keep the brake tower and it looks neat in my MK2 Escort. My turbo is a Garrett GT2860RS and is maxxed out at 300hp. I may go to a GT2871R in future and do a retune. The car runs on E85 20psi Attachment 82693
    That's the thing...a Cossie engine can be nice, but a simple old Pinto still looks great sitting in an Escort engine bay. And a turbo hanging off the side only improves it. And undoubtedly takes up less room.
    9.85 @ 145mph 202mph standing mile

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_c7fML3rw

  38. #37
    Bodger

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Very nice engine indeed, do you have a topic for your car?

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    Bodger

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by kliobas View Post
    Very nice engine indeed, do you have a topic for your car?
    Thanks kliobas. Here you go https://oldschool.co.nz/index.php?/t...rt-denim-pack/
    Last edited by OZMK1; 19-04-2018 at 22:33.

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    Quote Originally Posted by OZMK1 View Post
    Nice to hear another spec that is reasonably close to mine;
    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1337758

    For reference;


    A bit more boost though and wheel numbers for power.

    Gustaf

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    Bodger

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    Re: YB head or modified Pinto Head

    I should be also in the 300hp club, just need some final dial-in with EBC working and define the optimal cam timing.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 30185416_1748963738475204_1353950553_n.jpg‎  

    25105638_10215107332853979_178248821_n.jpg‎  


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