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Thread: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

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    Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Hi guys and gals, long time lurker here.
    I have been using your forum for inspiration and tips and such when restoring my MK2 RS.
    I was hoping the collected expertise of somebody in this forum could maybe help me with my problem.

    To begin at the beginning, or at the start as it were.
    I bought the car in 2009, after it had been sitting in a fjord, outside a shed beside the ocean since 1997.
    The car was rough, but complete and needed some welding.
    I started the restoration in february 2016 after pulling it out of storage, and was done around july 2017 after a long and intense restoration.

    Have a picture of the offending offender:



    One thing that had always annoyed me was the rough idle, and jerky running on low revs around 2000rpm, regardless of 1-4th gear.
    Up above 3000rpm it was pulling along nicely, no jerking, also pulling nice under acceleration.
    It's drivable, but the jerking starts when I'm below 70km/h in fourth gear.
    The cam (Kent Cams fr32) had worn lobes, cam followers was worn out and noisy, and the compression was uneven between the cylindres.
    It was running a 32/36 dgv weber, witch I overhauled with new gaskets and stuff.
    I also had pressure in the cooling system, making the water not circulate through the heater radiator. (a heater is a nice thing to have in northern Norway during winter)
    I replaced all followers and adjusted the valve clearance thoroughly. A little improvement, but the running was about the same.

    So, in february I decided that enough was enough. I ordered a FR32 kit, waterpump, fuelpump, gaskets, vernier pulley, the whole shebang from Burton.
    After removing the cylinder head I saw that 3 valve seats on cylinder 2 and 3 had cracks into water passages. The head was junk.
    Great. I also found the block to be overbored to a calculated 2115ccm. Awesome
    The head was a big inlet valve (44.4mm) head, with lightly ported inlets. Exhaust ports were stock by the look of them.

    I had a 1986 sierra 205 carbed engine sitting so I pulled the head from that.
    Then I went to town on that head with porting, 1.5mm skimming, grinding and polishing the combustion chambers and the exhaust ports as per David Vizards book.
    I also cut new larger 3 angle valve seats for the 44.4mm inlet valves. The exhaust ones stayed 36mm but got cut with 3 angles, since I didn't have larger ones.
    I used a neway kit I borrowed at a local business for the valve seat cutting.

    Why not, right? I just wanted to get the best possible chance to get some more free ponies for my MK2.
    Everything went smoothly together, it started up on the button, I got the cam run in and adjusted and the rough running was still there. Same as before.
    It was way up on power though, much stronger torque, and top end power.

    But I couldn't get the timing below 12-14 degrees because it would stall dipping below 12 degrees.
    I replaced the distributor, with a distributor with accuspark electric system, no change.
    I replaced the spark plugs with new ones, no change. New spark plug wires and new distributor cap, no change.
    New coil, no change.

    I thought it maybe was running lean on low revs, (even though the spark plugs looked nice) so I got a 38/38 solex EEIT from a granada 2.8,
    I procceeded to take it completely apart, clean and assemble it. I threw it on the inlet and started the car up.
    It was still running rough low down and upto around 28-2900rpm. But much happier throttle response, and faster pickup.
    Played around with the mixture screws on it, got the engine running as best as I could. No FUGGING change!!



    I'm at my wits end really, I just want to figure this problem out.
    I just want to drive this old slag around without it jumping and jerking whenever I'm not flogging it around.

    Please help a brother out.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    I think with an FR32 and twin choke you will always get some hesitation at low revs, you might be able to tune it out with some jetting changes, perhaps with a different idle jet and careful tuning to get the idle to main jet fuelling transition right, although the best solution would be to fit a pair of twin 40's or 45's on smallish chokes, say 34mm or 36mm. The fact thatit wont run cleanly with ignition advance below 12-14deg isnt to do with the igntion system, more cylinder filling efficiency at low revs, mainly because of what carb you're using but could also be if you dont have enough compression, 12 deg advance isnt excessive for an FR32, id say 10-14deg is about right. Have you calculated your compression ratio? FR32 should work well with around 10:1 +
    Last edited by Erikmex; 30-04-2018 at 07:33.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    If you want to keep the twin choke carb fit a BF134 or equivalent cam (FR30).

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    I would say the carbs not up to the job as Erik says get some 45s

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Does this mean that nobody has ever gotten smooth running from the fr32 on a single twin choke carb?

    I was out in the garage again today just putting the old 32/36 back on it to keep it driveable.
    I checked the ignition again, set it to around 12 degrees and just laid the ignition lamp down connected to the lead to cyl 1.
    The spark was erratic, not consistent as I would expect it to be. I tried the other 3.
    It was worst on cyls 1, 2 and 3. it was missing a few times on no.4. Under acceleration it is consistent, no jerking.

    Video before I swapped the distributor:




    Shot today:



    The spark should be even and consistent right?
    It was the same with the accuspark electronic points, as with the standard points.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Rotor arm?
    Is the ignition advancing with revs?

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    That doesn't sound good.
    Some timing lights have a plug-side on the pickup that you put around the sparkplug cable, some work either way.
    Check yours.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Quote Originally Posted by davemk1 View Post
    Rotor arm?
    Is the ignition advancing with revs?
    Rotor arm is not new, but not that old either. I've tried two different ones.
    The advance is as far as I can see correct. But not to an exact degree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    That doesn't sound good.
    Some timing lights have a plug-side on the pickup that you put around the sparkplug cable, some work either way.
    Check yours.
    It works either way, no markings or anything else on the timing light pickup.

    Could a worn top bearing in the distributor produce running such as this?
    The bearing wasn't bad, but not exactly without slack either.
    Last edited by FunkyHunk; 30-04-2018 at 23:06.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Still think your issue is carb related, that looks more to be a problem with your timing light pickup, if you had an intermittent spark on a cylinder you'd have a misfire throughout the rev range, it wouldn't clear above 2800rpm, its possible you may have an issue with the advance rate, as above need to check the dizzy is advancing ignition with increased engine speed although i really think it down to fuelling.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    What carb-jetting do you use for the FR32 cam?

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Watching the video again, its most definitely an issue with that timing light, the engine doesnt miss in line with when the timing light doesnt flash. Focus on the carb/jetting. It will never pull completeyl smoothly on a twin choke from low revs with an FR32, less cam or twin dcoe's is your solution if you're still not happy with it after a proper jetting session.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 01-05-2018 at 10:18.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Still think your issue is carb related, that looks more to be a problem with your timing light pickup, if you had an intermittent spark on a cylinder you'd have a misfire throughout the rev range, it wouldn't clear above 2800rpm, its possible you may have an issue with the advance rate, as above need to check the dizzy is advancing ignition with increased engine speed although i really think it down to fuelling.
    I tried another timing light, and the signal was the same, no difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miniliteman View Post
    What carb-jetting do you use for the FR32 cam?
    I believe the jetting is stock for now. I'll give it a whirl with the 38/38 solex i've got laying about first, once I find an airfilter housing that fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Watching the video again, its most definitely an issue with that timing light, the engine doesnt miss in line with when the timing light doesnt flash. Focus on the carb/jetting. It will never pull completeyl smoothly on a twin choke from low revs with an FR32, less cam or twin dcoe's is your solution if you're still not happy with it after a proper jetting session.
    Maybe it's down to fuelling, I don't know. As I don't have access to a pair of IDF's or DCOE's, I have to work with what I got for now.
    And a proper rolling road session with carb jetting is nowhere to be found near my hometown. Nobody does anything with carbs anymore, it's all EFI.

    I tried another dizzy from a 1.6 pinto from my old cortina. The ignition was slightly better with less shaking. Idle was rough, but better. The jerking while driving on low revs was also noticably reduced.

    I set the idle timing to 8 degrees just to test, and it ran fine, but up around 3k rpm's i had slight barely noticeable pinging, since it has a different ignition curve from the 2l dizzy.
    The top bearing/copper bushing was not very worn on either dizzy, but the bottom was somewhat worn om both of them (maybe as much as 0.5 to 1mm slack), but less so on the 1.6 dizzy.
    I will try to fit over the weights and springs from the 2l to the 1.6 housing. Maybe it will alleviate some of the symptoms.
    I still cannot afford a new dizzy, or idf/dcoe's, so I'll have to raid parts bins to see what I can come up with.
    I should have a dizzy from the sierra 205 2l carb engine laying around. Maybe it has the same housing as the points dizzy I have.

    The struggle continues.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Stop what you are doing, get some bigger jets first!
    Will post a suggestion.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    For the 32/36 DGV carb fit some 150 main jets and 55 idle jets.
    With std jets and the FR32 the engine will run lean, and will stall without enough advance at idle.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    I opened it today to check, and the idle jets are both 55's, and 145 main jets.
    It idles okay, but choppy.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    dont expect a really smooth idle, fr32 will give that on sidedrafts but probably not on twinchoke. your main jets are definitely too small, the primary needs to be more like 150, secondary at least 150 maybe bigger still

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    I'll have a try with the solex 38/38 EEIT when I can find an filter for it. It should deliver more juice than the DGV.
    If not, I'll have to get sent some jets from Oslo. I live 1900kms north of our nations capital, so the road to get carb parts is long. Parcel postage takes 4 days normally.

    The engine cuts, and jumps violently under small loads, 10% throttle, it even jerks and jumps on the overrun, when letting off the throttle under 2k rpm.

    I tried another old dizzy, and the jerking was lessened a little bit when maintaining speed around 60km/h in 4th around 2k rpm. (that's where it's most annoying)
    I set the idle timing around 12 degrees/900rpm.
    Last edited by FunkyHunk; 23-05-2018 at 17:39.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    just because you fit a bigger carb doesnt mean you will get more fuel! you will probably still need to increase main jet sizes. we always had to when we used to put v6 carbs on pintos

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    The issue I'm having is with the ignition point.
    When I set it to 10-12 degrees around 1000rpm, it just drops off when I let go of the trottle.
    The timing drops down to below 4 degrees and it violently sputters to a halt.
    If I set the timing lower at 800rpms it wont run at all. it sputters, shakes violently, misfiring.

    It runs if I keep the rpm's over a 1000-1200, then I can set the timing again, but it just dies dropping the rpms, and the timing drops down again.
    I've tried the 32/36 with 145 main jets, the 38/38 solex with 155 main jets, and a weber 38/38 with 150 main jets.
    The engine /timing was exactly the same with all three carbs. New cap and rotor too.

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    Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Does it run ok ( or better ) with choke on ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    Does it run ok ( or better ) with choke on ?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    The difference is not noticable.
    When the choke raises the rpm it works the same as when I use the throttle, or adjust the idle screw.
    Then it idles better over 12-1400 rpm.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Have you changed the distributor yet?

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    I've tried 3 different ones.
    The one that was on the car from when I bought it, was completely impossible to get a stable ignition from. I guess there was something wrong with the weights or springs in it.
    It maxed out the ignition advance around 2000 rpm. It had a really worn lower bushing as well.

    I tried a 1.6 vv carb distributor, but it pinged all over the revrange, completely different springs and weights. That had not so worn bushings at the bottom.

    The third was another 2l dizzy. That had an okay advance, and I got the most stable ignition point from that.
    The bottom bushing was pretty worn tho, so I took the internals from that and put it in the 1.6 distributor housing, and that gave the most stable running.
    Still not good tho.

    None of the distributors I've used are new, so my next plan is to order this from Burton: Modified vacuum Bosch distributor

    The only drawback is that stock lead time was 3-4 weeks, and it's an exchange unit.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    I can add that the comression was tested on semi-warm engine.

    The numbers were 15.1kg/215psi on all four, super close on all four cylinders.

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    Still think your issue is the carb, fit 40’s or 45’s

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    Re: Going MAD, 2.1 Pinto running rough.

    The timing will drop off as the engine dies. The fact you need more advance is because the engine is running inefficiently at low revs, as is the case with most engines when you fit higher lift longer duration cams with more overlap.

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