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Thread: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

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    What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    I've had a couple of MK2 Sport 1600's sitting in my shed for a year or so now, and I thought time I did something with one of them..

    I'm a big fan of the look of the old white Rothmans works BDAs, with the flared arches etc.

    So I want to do one up to look the same (except white with black trim, no blue or stickers as it's a road car).

    I want something that handles really really well though so I thought I'd turn here.

    I thought of doing a group 4 conversion, but that appears to be a lot of extra shell work and would lose the back seat.

    I'll be running a toyota hilux rear axle with LSD, Duratec 2.3 engine.

    Princess brakes in the front and a pedal box.

    So short of doing group 4, what's the best things I can do to make it handle well?

    I'm thinking the best Gaz shocks all round.

    Single leaf springs?

    Shell stiffening kit?

    Obviously new bushes all round.

    World cup crossmember or standard?

    There seems to be a lot of suspension modes that can be done both front and rear in terms of bracing etc.

    I'm keen to hear peoples thoughts.. have attached a pic of the car before it was shipping to me from South Africa (I'll never buy another SA car again after those two)..

    Click image for larger version Name:	Esc.jpeg Views:	329 Size:	180.3 KB ID:	82828

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    bilsteins all round, either tarmac or forest spec depending on how bumpy roads are. twincam AR bar with double width kit,145lb single leafs decambered or 2" lowering blocks, 190lb front springs -1". fit some tramp bars to axle and a panhard rod. basically group 1 spec. gusset front legs. junk the princess calipers and get some alloy 4 pots and ally hubs, unsprung weight and all that. use 13" wheels which will save kilos a corner. only need a wcxm if planning on doing lots of yumping or driving on dirt

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    All good advice.. many thanks.. I rallied for many years in Group N Imprezas, and the suspension (Proflex) in those things was worth as much as the entire Escort, so whilst I know how to setup a modern 4wd Japanese car to go fast on dirt.. I have NO clue when it comes to a dirty old Ford RWD

    So when you put -1" for the springs, I'm assuming I'd need to go adjustable coil overs? or does the whole leg become 1" shorter? or? I have heard of people fitting Capri struts but haven't looked into that at all yet..
    Good point on the calipers...
    Is there any disadvantages to running a wcxm? Retro-ford do one that allows fitment of the Duratec engine and has the lowered steering.. so if there's no disadvantages I'd probably go for one then I know I'm starting with a nice new straight crossmember that fits the engine correctly. Thanks..

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    -1 springs means buying 1 inch shorter which you can do if you keep standard type struts.

    dont bother with wcxm, it has no point in a road car, its job was to hold the engine better in a rough driven rally car,

    you can get a really good handling escort by effectively turning it into an RS2000, so tramp bars to locate rear axle, capri front struts, then chuck in some decent shocks, set of lowered springs, most go minus 2 inch front, at the rear lowering blocks ( or better still decambered rear springs) set of poly bushes but leave out the spring mount saddles as they introduce flex between rear axle and springs.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Cheers Graeme, I see you can buy a lot of the front suspension components.. eg steering arms, alloy large bearing hubs etc..

    The current crossmember in the car is bent.. so I'm going to need to replace it anyway.. hence why I thought may as well go WXCM

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    you guys are right, WXCM is not the way to go it seems - http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=177789

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    I have a WCXM in a Mk2 RS and it's a pain in the backside compared to the standard one I had in my previous RS.
    Have just had to pull my engine out to change front crank seal and sump gasket, as I had limited access.
    Was just easier to pull it out.
    Old car was much easier, as I would remove steering wheel and loosen 4 crossmember bolts to remove sump.
    I also have 2" lowering blocks on the rear, but thinking of changing them to 1" due to speed bumps and sleeping policemen.
    Last edited by dt36; 01-06-2018 at 14:24.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    wcxm wasn't an issue on mine. a lot of people fit polybushes everywhere and then blame the wcxm when their car vibrates. all mine were fitted with ford HD rubber bushes in tca's,leafies,DW kit,steering rack and 5 link bars. one of the advantages of fitting a lowered rack mount wcxm is that you can get the starter out without having to remove the nearside mount and jack the engine up

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy slim View Post
    one of the advantages of fitting a lowered rack mount wcxm is that you can get the starter out without having to remove the nearside mount and jack the engine up
    what about the disadvantage of messing up the steering geometry though? personally id rather have to do more work to change the starter than have bump steer.

    even with std non polly bushes wcxm gives more engine vibration than standard x member

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    .
    Last edited by bpnz; 02-06-2018 at 09:04.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Is it the wcxm (which I’ve gone off the idea of) crossmember that buggers up the steering geometry? Or the lower steering rack mount? As I can buy a standard cross member with the lowered mount to fit the duratec.. but I would’ve assumed it’d be the lowered rack that’d cause bump steer..
    Last edited by bpnz; 02-06-2018 at 09:03. Reason: Typos

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    its moving the rack mounts which buggers the geometry. in an ideal world if you move the rack you also need move the tca pickup points, for a lowered car ideally you want to move stuff UP not down

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by bpnz View Post
    Is it the wcxm (which I’ve gone off the idea of) crossmember that buggers up the steering geometry? Or the lower steering rack mount? As I can buy a standard cross member with the lowered mount to fit the duratec.. but I would’ve assumed it’d be the lowered rack that’d cause bump steer..
    yes but retroford do re-cranked steering arms to account for the move. If you are running the bilstein type struts.

    http://www.retro-ford.co.uk/shop/node/137
    Last edited by wildo105e; 02-06-2018 at 16:29.

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    What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Keep the ap princess 4pots disk set up if working its a. Very good cheap set up.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    what about the disadvantage of messing up the steering geometry though? personally id rather have to do more work to change the starter than have bump steer.

    even with std non polly bushes wcxm gives more engine vibration than standard x member
    don't know about steering geometry as i'm not that technical but my escort handled great setting times at various speed event venues that have yet to be beat over 20 years later and all with a 1600 pusher. each to their own, its only an opinion

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Lower rack mount cross members are designed to reduce bump steer, provided you have the correct ride height, problem is that people use them for sump clearance which isn’t the intention of them. Personally I’d always fit a wcxm, far better engine mounting method. The std type allows the engine to drop, seen so many sumps sitting on cross members over the years.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Lower rack mount cross members are designed to reduce bump steer, provided you have the correct ride height, problem is that people use them for sump clearance which isn’t the intention of them. Personally I’d always fit a wcxm, far better engine mounting method. The std type allows the engine to drop, seen so many sumps sitting on cross members over the years.
    me too, have seen far too many engines with less than standard power moving 2 to 3 inches when revved to 4-5k never mind anything worthwhile. if people want to keep the original( at least 40 year old and probably many more) rubber mounts fine

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    WCXM is great if you don't mind having to loctite in every single nut & bolt, yes it holds the engine rigid, but makes it very harsh.

    Because of this I have refabbed my WCXM with vibra technics bushes using RS2000 alloy engine mounts. I'm hoping everything doesn't continue to rattle apart. Gave up with it when the starter motor rattled loose and lost 3 bellhousing bolts...

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    What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Lower rack mount cross members are designed to reduce bump steer, provided you have the correct ride height, problem is that people use them for sump clearance which isn’t the intention of them. Personally I’d always fit a wcxm, far better engine mounting method. The std type allows the engine to drop, seen so many sumps sitting on cross members over the years.
    Yes it does correct bump steer - on high riding forest suspension.
    If you lower a car is doubly as bad as standard hight.
    It's also as stated very harsh and in my experience not suitable for enjoyable road use. If you use good mounts and new rubbers ( or landrover ones with modded mount) there's no issue.


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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Really depends what engine mounting metalastic bushes you use, essentially the engine is still mounted via the crossmember, its only really the style of mounting bushes that change, if you have vibration issues you just change the bushes for different type. Std crossmembers are fine for the road unless you get airborne...then you run the risk of sending the sump into the crossmember as the std mounts often slip. Chassis mounting is often also said to cause vibration, personally ive never had any issues.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Chassis mounting is often also said to cause vibration, personally ive never had any issues.
    My Anglia engine is chassis mounted with Cortina leaf spring bushes. I have never noticed vibrations etc or bolts undoing (so far)

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Exactly, it just depends on what type of bushes you use, its nothing to do with the crossmember, if you want less vibration, use softer bushes, if you want less engine movement and dont mind a bit of vibration - use harder ones, i see so many people saying ''wcxm's or chassis mounting causes vibration'' no they dont, the type of bushes you use does, fit solid engine mounts on a std crossmember and you'll get vibration.

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    What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Mainly agree tbh but the whole point of a wcxm is to stiffly mount for yumps etc


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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Yes but you can use softer mounts which still cure the issue of the sump fouling the cross member, for WCXM engine mounts you can use about 10 different types of bush. Even with the softest ones you still wont have the issue that std mounts do.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Yes but you can use softer mounts which still cure the issue of the sump fouling the cross member, for WCXM engine mounts you can use about 10 different types of bush. Even with the softest ones you still wont have the issue that std mounts do.
    What would be the softest bush for a WCXM?

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Rubber void type bush rather than a solid type

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Hey, if it’s going to be a duratec then the engine mounts are going have to change anyhow , so chassis mount or crossmember is the choice I guess.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy slim View Post
    wcxm wasn't an issue on mine. a lot of people fit polybushes everywhere and then blame the wcxm when their car vibrates.
    Must agree with the above.
    A WCXM alone does not give more vibrations; it holds the engine better in it's place which is a good thing.
    Most people fit a WCXM plus rose-jointed TCA's and/or poly-bushes and/or a 4 link setup.
    These are the real reason for vibration and a harsh ride. (plus ofcourse stiffer suspension)

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Rubber void type bush rather than a solid type
    Ok, still a bit confused as there are a million void bushes...

    In my WCXM I had original Ford rear spring bushes (the ones from the front of the spring) as that was what I was told in the 90's. This was harsh with the Pinto, and then with the YB

    Can anyone point me to a definitive bush that will be softer please.

    Thanks!

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Just buy a bush that’s softer than your current, how can we tell the density of your current one? Only you can do that then work out which one is softer.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Or drill some holes in the ones you have to soften them

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    The idea of the WCXM is to stop the engine dancing about in the engine bay. If you have too softer bushes you are defeating the object of the stiffer set up. With the weight of the Pinto or YB you should n't be experiencing any problems with rubber bushes being harsh unless you have some very stiff Poly ones fitted.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Not really as the travel or engine drop will be much less with softer bushes than a std crossmember which can cause the engine to slip on the slotted mounts. Even with really soft bushes in a wcxm, the engine can only drop so far.....the thickness of half the bush diameter

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    What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Duffer View Post
    Ok, still a bit confused as there are a million void bushes...

    In my WCXM I had original Ford rear spring bushes (the ones from the front of the spring) as that was what I was told in the 90's. This was harsh with the Pinto, and then with the YB

    Can anyone point me to a definitive bush that will be softer please.

    Thanks!
    Yes that's the point. They are designed for that bush and we're always supplied with that bush in the time period that I experienced them and were as you find very harsh with a lot of vibes.
    And in those days people didn't drive pretend gp4 on the road so standard suspension and springs under 200lb.



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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Not really as the travel or engine drop will be much less with softer bushes than a std crossmember which can cause the engine to slip on the slotted mounts. Even with really soft bushes in a wcxm, the engine can only drop so far.....the thickness of half the bush diameter
    That all depends what you are using the car for, a play toy or something more serious driven hard over the rough stuff where the engine moves about a lot. There is n't the greatest amount of clearance with the sump, X member and steering rack.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Yeah agreed, not much good through the woods, but i have fairly soft bushes in mine, had my car airborne on a tarmac stage, scraped the sump guard on landing and the sump never made contact....so it works, even with softer bushes, a WCXM is a better option that the std one.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Theyre supplied with lots of bushes, whatever you choose to fit really.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forest_rallying View Post
    The idea of the WCXM is to stop the engine dancing about in the engine bay. If you have too softer bushes you are defeating the object of the stiffer set up. With the weight of the Pinto or YB you should n't be experiencing any problems with rubber bushes being harsh unless you have some very stiff Poly ones fitted.
    My YB engine is a Cosworth cast aluminium block, Julian Godfrey billet dry sump setup, its very light weight, not a cast boat anchor

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Theyre supplied with lots of bushes, whatever you choose to fit really.
    Yes, totally understand the "just buy a softer bush" but unfortunately I don't work for a bush shop (if there is such a thing) is there a scale of softness? Or just spend a fortune on trial and error? Hence my question of any recommendations, narrows down the search somewhat. Its a tarmac car, not rally.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Yes, rubber hardness is measured in 'Shore A' , 90A, 75A etc, the lower the number the softer the rubber, you'll find various hardnesses of rubber bush online, just find the correct size you need and you'll find a range of hardness. Leaf spring bushes are typical quite hard 85-90A, if thats what are supplied as engine mounts then its no surprise people have issues with engine vibration, id be looking at fitting something 30-60A which is whats typically used for mounting where high loads arent a factor.
    Last edited by Erikmex; 19-06-2018 at 12:21.

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    Re: What's the best suspension setup for road going MK2 Sport?

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Yes, rubber hardness is measured in 'Shore A' , 90A, 75A etc, the lower the number the softer the rubber, you'll find various hardnesses of rubber bush online, just find the correct size you need and you'll find a range of hardness. Leaf spring bushes are typical quite hard 85-90A, if thats what are supplied as engine mounts then its no surprise people have issues with engine vibration, id be looking at fitting something 30-60A which is whats typically used for mounting where high loads arent a factor.
    Now that's an answer! That's brilliant, thank you very much for this Erikmex!

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