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Thread: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

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    Bodger Seinfeld's Avatar

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    Lightbulb Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Hello,

    I've a problem with my pinto. Its a 2.1 with 93 mm Woessner pistons, Cossie rods and big valve head and 44 IDF carbs

    Problem: It burned it's 3rd head gasket (Ajusa F3101 94,5 mm)

    At low revs with full throttle I deffo have heard pinging noise but I've already set the ignition timing to 8 degrees. Marking on the pulley is OK at TDC. The plugs are OK (using already cold NGK plugs) showing a nice dark brown surface. No vacuum connected. Last time I had the head skimmed so this is levelled.

    I had the same with a Bestek ignition, so I changed back to points. I'm running out of ideas ....

    What else can I check?

    CheeRS
    Sascha
    Last edited by Seinfeld; 14-06-2018 at 08:36.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    whats the compression ratio and cam?

    also what octane fuel do you use, 95,98,100, 102?

    could be you have too much compression for the fuel quality, at higher rpm the head will hold back airflow so its not an issue.

    my race bmw m20 engine has similar problem, large throttle openings at low RPM, it pings so we only have 2 degrees timing low down, but is on engine management so it can run with timing retarded at the bottom of the rev range at wot and still have enough timing for full power, something you cant do with a distributor.

    you may need to either lower the compression or run better fuel

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Engine temp ok?? maybe a hot spot somewhere on the head?? could it be that the advance rate of your dizzy is too much?

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    are sure the block surface is ok?
    I'm sure I'll never fit an Adjusa, neither for free.
    If you can post pics of the used headgaskets focusing on the burnt part would be better, front and back

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Thanks to all.

    I'm going now MLS route. CR ist something around 11.5. I will post pics, when i have the new gasket and have taken off the head. I assume it's blown from the fire ring to the water channel between 1st and second cylinder because I've got pressure in the cooling system and white smoke by burning coolant.

    Engine temp was ok. Dizzy is the original one from an RS. But since it was pinging at low revs without having vacuum connected, I'm pretty sure that the max advance is not the problem.

    The last thing I haven't checked is the cam pulley. That brings me to the next question: Has somebody of you seen the video from Steve Curson from Vulcan, where he shows the adjusting of the vernier pulley? I haven't understood the what exactly he is calculating.

    https://www.facebook.com/stephen.cur...5639793858691/

    Sorry for the facebook link, but I haven't found it on youtube.

    CheeRS

    Edit: last time I had the head off for skimming I checked it with a straight edge and found it to be OK.
    Last edited by Seinfeld; 15-06-2018 at 12:16.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Its setting cam timing. What cam are you using?

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Thanks Erik,

    I know that it is bout timing the cam. But I'm not familiar with the way he is doing it
    On the last pinto I was doing it like Graham explained in his thread "A pinto called Dave"

    http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthre...=1#post1502503

    I'm using a HT1 cam.

    CheeRS

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Your engine will need much more ignition advance at idle,. more like 14-16deg, i run an Ht1e and have 14deg @ 1200rpm, 34degrees total at 3700rpm.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    when I dialled in my cam shaft I had seen the video above and found that very complicated but got there in the end, was far easier with the engine out of the car, and when timed up right it made a huge difference to how the car drove and sounded at low rpm's (Newman ph4 276 deg)

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Seinfeld View Post
    Thanks to all.

    .Steve Curson from Vulcan, where he shows the adjusting of the vernier pulley? I haven't understood the what exactly he is calculating.

    https://www.facebook.com/stephen.cur...5639793858691/
    .
    ok what he is doing is an alternative method of setting cam timing, which works on the basis the engine needs more inlet than exhaust lift at tdc, so where he set the inlet lift a 200 thou he also set the exhaust lift at 160 thou.

    for me personally although simple that method does have a drawback, its only as accurate as the tdc mark or crank pulley!

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Unless you mark the crank pulley exactly where true tdc is before you fit the head.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Unless you mark the crank pulley exactly where true tdc is before you fit the head.
    agreed although thats clearly not the case with steves video

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Unless you mark the crank pulley exactly where true tdc is before you fit the head.
    this is what I did when building mine, I marked the crank at true tdc by using a stop in the bore so the piston wouldn't go a full revolution and found our tdc off that, my cam also says full lift at 110 deg from memory so I also marked the on the crank to have a guide

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    In the late 80's there was a company from the North East called Formula One Engineering that made a steel pinto crank pulley that was marked in every degree for the full 360. Their advert was quoted as making cam timing child's play.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    How do you know the stop stopped the piston at true tdc? I just use a dti and mark the crank pulley in the middle of the tdc dwell measurement on the dti

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    i would guess you rotate both ways and pick the center of the "dead spot" .

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Funny method that

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    i would guess you rotate both ways and pick the center of the "dead spot" .

    Correct, the piston does n't have to hit the stop at tdc. When it's touched the stop note the markings on the timing disc,rotate the crank in the opposite direction until it hits the stop again and take another note of the markings on the degree wheel. Divide the figures by 2 and that should be true tdc.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Your engine will need much more ignition advance at idle,. more like 14-16deg, i run an Ht1e and have 14deg @ 1200rpm, 34degrees total at 3700rpm.
    Thats what I was thinking, too. But since it was pinging, I've set back the timing to 8 degrees to avoid pinging.

    My understanding of pinging is, that there are a couple of reasons for it.

    1. Too much advance on iginition
    2. Too Lean mixture
    3. Too hot plugs

    So I eliminated it by:

    1. Setting ignition to 8 Degrees
    2. Playing around with main jets (now 1 step bigger than GRP1 standard, which was 1.45, now 1.55)
    3. Using NGK AP 7F S

    As mentioned, plugs are fine (a bit more on the dark side). What else can I do to check, why that thing is pinging?

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Too much compression or a hot spot can also cause pre ignition, sharp edges left by machining a head can cause a hot spot

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    what octane is your fuel? if you have 93 octane it will pink no matter what you do with the timing

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    what octane is your fuel? if you have 93 octane it will pink no matter what you do with the timing
    I'm using 95 octane, but tried also 98 Octane without difference.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Too much compression or a hot spot can also cause pre ignition, sharp edges left by machining a head can cause a hot spot
    I don't think, that a CR under 12 should be a problem, should it?

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Depends how much under, 11-12 is quite high

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Seinfeld View Post
    I don't think, that a CR under 12 should be a problem, should it?
    yes, easily

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    OK, did my maths again.

    Without having the chamber in the head measured 100%, and assuming the standard chamber is about 49 cc (in my case it hase been skimmed, so I go with 48 cc) I have a CR of 10.49.

    Even if its more skimmed than expected this will hardly raise up to a bit over 11.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    trouble here is your guessing, if its been skimmed theres a fair chance you have less than 48cc in the head, but what thickness is the gasket?

    if its pinging then 98 octane should of made a difference even if it didn't stop it altogether, or else theres something really wrong, it might be a good idea to check the advance rate of the distributor

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    trouble here is your guessing, if its been skimmed theres a fair chance you have less than 48cc in the head, but what thickness is the gasket?
    The gasket has a compressed hight of 1.02 mm (by manufacturer). Since I will change to a MLS gasket from Athena the height stays, but the diameter Athena offers is only 93.5 mm (Now 94.5 mm).

    I'll take the head off this week and will measure the capacity.

    As for the dizzy: First I had a full Bestek ignition, with the same problem. Then I changed back to points to eliminate a programming fault.

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    As for the dizzy: First I had a full Bestek ignition, with the same problem. Then I changed back to points to eliminate a programming fault.
    are you talking about mapped or electronic ignition? in most cases electronic ignition merely replaces the points and if the advance curve is wrong it will still be wrong

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    Re: Pinto Head gasket issue / pinging noise

    I don't like mls gaskets until the finishing is really fine

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