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Thread: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Here is a clubman spec 2 litre pinto I built for a good friend of mine last year


    Specs:

    Twin 45's with 38mm chokes,
    mangoletsi inlet manifold,
    Stage 3 inj big valve head to vizard specs,
    Cossie rods, +0.075mm cast pistons modified to suit rods,
    Ashley 3 piece competition manifold and 2.5" system,
    Modified dissy, RL31 cam etc.











    Click image for larger version Name:	Clubman spec pinto.jpg Views:	202 Size:	126.2 KB ID:	41388

    Graph shows first and last run (faint lines are first run), only fueling was adjusted.
    Power and torque curves do not cross at 5252rpm because they use slightly different scales on left and right, but they would cross at 5252rpm if the same scale was used for both.




    Here is my mate Enda competing in his mk2 escort rallycar on his first event with the new engine, he is a very quick driver

    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 01-01-2010 at 13:28.

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    nice flat curves it would be very interesting to see the same spec but running forged pistons and more c/r

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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Cheers Graham

    Yeah that would be ineteresting, on tight tarmac events like the one above he is beating almost all the 16v motors in the 2 litre class, they seem to have quite a bit of lag out of the corners with widl cams etc where as Enda has good punch away from them, its probably 90% driver skill but it does perform well.


    Here is another event with some loose surface action


    Last edited by RWD fords rule; 01-01-2010 at 13:43.

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Yeah that would be interesting, on tight tarmac events like the one above he is beating almost all the 16v motors in the 2 litre class,
    most likely the problem with the 16valvers is the torque is too high up the rev range or they simply arnt geared low enough. i've never run a non turbo multivalve, but my 8v motors have always murdered the multivalvers in other cars out the corners and given me just enough that despite the extra topend power the straights usually arnt long enough for them to get ahead

    i recon more c/r would add about 10lbft right through the rev range

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    Racer Decade Plus User RWD fords rule's Avatar

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    I totally agree, 8 valve motors generally have a much better spread of torque although I do believe most high spec 16v motors have cams with far too much overlap killing low rpm performance for an extra 20bhp at the top end, spoiling a good motor by getting to cought up in the big bhp numbers game.

    Forged pistons and more compression will have to wait for the next engine upgrade which will be a roller pinto 2.0 hoping to break the 200bhp barrier with a wide spread of torque.

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Good man Jason i see your been as modest as ever about your own work

    The amount of time and effort Jason puts into every build is astonishing to try and get every last bit of usable power from the engine sourcing value for money parts etc, because this engine was built on a very tight budget , People are already starting to talk about Jasons work over here from this spec engine..........wait till the see and hear the next one
    I used to finish in around the top 20 at best in events over the last few years, so far this year iv finished inside the top 10 on every event for the exception of 2, my first and last event,



    Cant wait for the next one to roll out of the shed, but all in due time, keep up the good work buck

    Enda
    Click image for larger version Name:	IMG_4391 - Copy.JPG Views:	22 Size:	1.72 MB ID:	41427

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    A nice wee bit of drifting here



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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Had another event yesterday, some more footage





    Enda managed to get 2nd overall with 80 drivers and a lot of high spec rallycars, very quick driving

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Brilliant Jason. Top work there, engine on the dyno sounds ace,

    Stevie.

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Looks like a bloody quick little car that mate!

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Jason is the torque figure on the dyno sheet correct? seems very low??? or are figures at the wheels?

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by I.K.Engineering View Post
    Jason is the torque figure on the dyno sheet correct? seems very low??? or are figures at the wheels?
    This engine is only running a little over 10 to 1 comp ratio with cast pistons for now, it was built on a very tight budget, peak bhp and torque figures are not important, a wide power / torque band is what you want for rallying.

    We are planning a few upgrades for next year, hopefully it will add more power throughout the power curve, Enda has been getting 2nd place overal all year, only being beaten by a good driver with a 250bhp+ 2.0 honda k series and 6 sequential gearbox etc in a very well sorted mk2 escort.

    Next year I will be sourcing parts for the next engine which will be a 2.0 roller pinto on itb's, its not easy to make the roller pinto setup very reliable but I am working hard on it, we have almost all of the top end parts sorted out for that engine now which is a big relief.

    Regards
    Jason
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Drifting at mondello race track last saturday

    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by I.K.Engineering View Post
    Jason is the torque figure on the dyno sheet correct? seems very low??? or are figures at the wheels?
    I was thinking the same thing.

    The JEM Pinto that Retro Ford had in the Goldmember Escort made very similar horsepower but almost 20lb/ft more torque.

    Be interesting to see what it made on a 2" exhaust system and smaller manifold.

    Is it on mapped ignition ? or a dizzy ?

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    to achive the same power but using less torque is a sign of an engine thats breathing well at high revs, and some more compression the torque will come up considerably and it would probably make 180bhp

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by neilm View Post
    I was thinking the same thing.

    The JEM Pinto that Retro Ford had in the Goldmember Escort made very similar horsepower but almost 20lb/ft more torque.

    Be interesting to see what it made on a 2\" exhaust system and smaller manifold.

    Is it on mapped ignition ? or a dizzy ?
    Goldmember actually made 165bhp and 146lb/ft with the 45mm ATPower throttle body kit which flow a lot more air than even weber 48's
    Classis ford said the engine gave 180bhp with 45 webers, so who knows what that engine actually made and its pointless comparing figures from different rolling roads, they can easily be out + or - 10bhp

    I would not like to try a 2" main pipe on this engine but I agree smaller diameter primary pipes would work better.

    The engine is running on a self modified dizzy with optical trigger.

    Irrespective of what torque figure the engine has it is performing very well for very minimal cost and that's what counts!

    It would be interesting to see how this engne would perform with forged pitons and more compression but that's totally up to the owner of the engine, we are also collecting parts for a new much higher spec engine and that is the main priority.

    Regards
    Jason
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    to achive the same power but using less torque is a sign of an engine thats breathing well at high revs, and some more compression the torque will come up considerably and it would probably make 180bhp
    I totally agree, I would like to swap to wossner forged pistons and 11 to 1 comp, it would make more torque throughout the power band but that is Enda's decision to make not mine.
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by RWD fords rule View Post
    Goldmember actually made 165bhp and 146lb/ft with the 45mm ATPower throttle body kit which flow a lot more air than even weber 48's
    Jason

    I beg to differ, when the JEM Pinto was first installed in Gold Member, we used it to develop our exhaust manifold and system on for the Escort.

    The car was then taken to Northampton Motorsport to have an Ignition Only Weber Alpha Kit fitted.

    I know it made 171bhp and 156lb/ft of torque because I was stood watching it do it.

    This is only 9bhp down on the Engine Dyno figure, but considering it was in the car, had the drag of the alternator etc on it and a full exhaust system no one thought that was bad. So the rollers couldnt be that far out.

    Obviously it has gone through a number of incarnations of ignition and fuel set ups as Ben has been testing different products in the market place but on 45's with the Weber Alpha thats what it made.


    Where you seemed to be on the money with the horsepower it just seemed a little down on torque for a pinto that was all, just wondered how much of that was down to over exhausting with a 2.5" system and how much could be attributed in other areas.

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Lol you are still comparing one rolling road figure to another!
    156lb/ft sounds very high to me with an RL31 cam and 171bhp, that is near the same torque as Grahams "Linford" engine made and that was a maximum effort 2.0 engine with a lot better parts, full management and that made 190bhp+

    You know with exhaust systems there is far more than one way to do things, you prefer to use the smallest pipe possibly which has its merits, I prefer to use a much larger pipe which has and still is being used on the vast majority of race tuned engines in the US, and top spec rally engines in Finland, I could tell you why this can be a large advantage but I'm not going to.

    TBH I have heard enough about power figures now, what is important is how the car and engine performs, the rest is not important.
    "Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races" - Enzo Ferrari

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    i might add that "linford" was fitted with a 2.5 inch exhaust

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by neilm View Post
    Jason

    I beg to differ, when the JEM Pinto was first installed in Gold Member, we used it to develop our exhaust manifold and system on for the Escort.

    The car was then taken to Northampton Motorsport to have an Ignition Only Weber Alpha Kit fitted.

    I know it made 171bhp and 156lb/ft of torque because I was stood watching it do it.

    This is only 9bhp down on the Engine Dyno figure, but considering it was in the car, had the drag of the alternator etc on it and a full exhaust system no one thought that was bad. So the rollers couldnt be that far out.

    Obviously it has gone through a number of incarnations of ignition and fuel set ups as Ben has been testing different products in the market place but on 45's with the Weber Alpha thats what it made.


    Where you seemed to be on the money with the horsepower it just seemed a little down on torque for a pinto that was all, just wondered how much of that was down to over exhausting with a 2.5" system and how much could be attributed in other areas.
    Troys dyno is about on the mark , was this the Sun ram 12 or there latest Dynojet single roller set up ?

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    Re: Clubman spec 2 litre pinto on rolling road

    Quote Originally Posted by neilm View Post
    Jason

    I beg to differ, when the JEM Pinto was first installed in Gold Member, we used it to develop our exhaust manifold and system on for the Escort.

    The car was then taken to Northampton Motorsport to have an Ignition Only Weber Alpha Kit fitted.

    I know it made 171bhp and 156lb/ft of torque because I was stood watching it do it.

    This is only 9bhp down on the Engine Dyno figure, but considering it was in the car, had the drag of the alternator etc on it and a full exhaust system no one thought that was bad. So the rollers couldnt be that far out.

    Obviously it has gone through a number of incarnations of ignition and fuel set ups as Ben has been testing different products in the market place but on 45's with the Weber Alpha thats what it made.


    Where you seemed to be on the money with the horsepower it just seemed a little down on torque for a pinto that was all, just wondered how much of that was down to over exhausting with a 2.5" system and how much could be attributed in other areas.
    Indeed ive not gone any bigger than 2 1/4 , what manifold are you using ? Ashley are pretty good plus they do not have the tapers were the tube has been bent. I had a 2.1 with a gp1 head and cam and 48's , all the bottom end was stock this was making 164 flywheel and 148ft it was beaten to death everywere for years giving no problems , u got to love the old iron lump !

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