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Thread: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

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    Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Hi everyone!

    First of all thanks for all the advice I have been given in this forum, I've learnt a lot from that and from just searching in the forum.

    The car:
    The car is a 1978 1600 Sport Escort, used just for racing in the National Historic Touring Car championship currently.
    It's within FIA security regulations and the championship regulations which are a lot, but to sum up, power to weight ratio limited at 7.5kg per HP (eg: a 750kg car can't have more than 100HP)



    The engine:
    - 1600 Xflow
    - 10.5:1 CR
    - Pistons are VW 1.8 8v ones (It's hard to get good original pistons here in Uruguay so this is a common mod here. Photo attached)
    - Lightened flywheel
    - 42mm/34mm valves on a nicely ported head
    - Iskenderian cam (.387 valve lift, 290deg advertised duration on a 108 lobe center, .024" valve lash for int and exh. 3500-7500 RPM band)
    - Custom made Electronic ignition distributor
    - 40DCOE32 Carbs on 55 idles, 140 mains, 180 air correctors and F11 emulsion tubes.





    The Power Plot:


    Made 133 hp at the engine, which I am really happy about
    There's just a weird drop between 4400 and 5000Rpm where it starts to pull again. Not too worried but too curious about that, any thoughts?
    Hope you enjoy the post. Any ideas or suggestions for the car or engine are always welcome.
    Thanks!

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Be good to see the afr

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I do have an AFR meter in the car but I don't have a logger so I can't plot it with power.
    It's jetted a little bit too rich in general because at the track it has shown to lean a lot in comparison with the rolling road.
    Roughly speaking, AFR goes from 11 to 12 in the plotted range.
    Thanks

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Those kind of dips can be down to the operator depending on how they feed in the throttle, although I would say it can be improved with some jetting, perhaps a bit rich around that dip??

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    There's just a weird drop between 4400 and 5000Rpm
    thats not that rare with a fairly hot cam, so it may be the cam, or an induction or exhaust length which doesnt work well at those revs, but i bet you dont feel it out on track

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I’d try a 135main and a little more ignition advance and see what it does

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    I’d try a 135main and a little more ignition advance and see what it does

    It has a bit more power with that, I tried, but I went on the safe side, as with this power, I have to add 100kg to the car which is a lot, so I didn't want more power

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    thats not that rare with a fairly hot cam, so it may be the cam, or an induction or exhaust length which doesnt work well at those revs, but i bet you dont feel it out on track
    Hopefully! Besides that small drop, what are your opinions on the graph?
    I liked it a lot, but maybe it can/should be better?

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Is it not a bit smoother tho? You can always reduce the Rev limit to limit the max power at the top end?? 11-12 AFR is quite rich, people often think rich is safe but not if you bore wash and carbon up the engine, I consider 12-13 safe and slightly rich

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    Is it not a bit smoother tho? You can always reduce the Rev limit to limit the max power at the top end?? 11-12 AFR is quite rich, people often think rich is safe but not if you bore wash and carbon up the engine, I consider 12-13 safe and slightly rich
    I agree, but I've seen afr lean a lot on the track, and I don;t want that. I have a race on Saturday and expect to be in the 12-13 on track.

    Quote Originally Posted by Erikmex View Post
    You can always reduce the Rev limit to limit the max power at the top end??
    I can't, as the power output is measured on a rolling road at the track after the qualy and the race, and it is not measured until the rev limiter, it is measured until the power graph starts to go down. Reason for that is that a competitor could eventually race with a 7.5 k rev limiter and set it to 6 right after the checkered flag.

    I'm now adding 100kilos to the car for Saturday's race, but for future ones, I may try a different setup on the engine that gives less hp so I don't have to carry extra weight.
    Ideally I should have 125 hp on a broad hp range, that would allow me to carry only around 50kg which is enough for corner-balancing the car.
    How to do that ^ is a great question hah

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Advance the cam timing???

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I was thinking on a different advance curve for the distributor, but changing the cam timing is a good idea.
    Do you have experience with that? Does it really "move the power graph"?

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    That's quite rich for NA! Are you at altitude or near sea level? I know about rich dyno / lean track but a shift of 1-1.5 AFR points would be a lot.
    Track AFR for max power 13.5 - 13.2 IMO. From your other thread I know max power is not what you want but if the cam is working there the other option is down cam - improve the torque and run less revs but pull higher gears?
    I'm at sea level, actually one mile from the ocean.
    Yeah, it is probably too rich, I melted a piston on the first race and now I may be on the too-safe-side.
    I love the power the engine has, but I have to carry 100kg of weight with me inside the car, that will make it brake less, and a lot of side effects more, so I have to make a compromise there. Power to weight ratio has to be 7.5kg per HP (or more) in the championship I'm currently in

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by wxneypar View Post
    I was thinking on a different advance curve for the distributor, but changing the cam timing is a good idea.
    Do you have experience with that? Does it really "move the power graph"?
    Mapped ignition would be the best option (if allowed in your racing?) as you'd be able to customize until you get a suitable result.

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I would just advance the cam timing and/or fit smaller chokes and reduce the top end and give it more mid range,

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    sounds like it needs less cam to me, a few less bhp at the top and load more midrange torque would make for a faster car especially if you could then run lighter

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I'm confused ! ! ! See thread post #12 above - The OP quotes a post I made but checking up through the thread - its not there and I didn't delete it ! Out come the conspiracy theories - spooky LOL!

    Edit ..... Found it - OP cross thread Quoted !
    Last edited by katana; 27-07-2018 at 08:41.

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    Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by katana View Post
    I'm confused ! ! ! See thread post #12 above - The OP quotes a post I made but checking up through the thread - its not there and I didn't delete it ! Out come the conspiracy theories - spooky LOL!

    Edit ..... Found it - OP cross thread Quoted !
    Confused me too until I read the other thread 😄


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    Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I agree with the above comments re dropping power - if you can loose most of the 100kg it will brake, corner and possibly accelerate better.


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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by alladdin View Post
    Confused me too until I read the other thread ��


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    Yeah sorry about the cross thread quote! I didn't want to have the same conversation on 2 threads but didn't want to lose his comment either!

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Thanks for your ideas. I agree "less cam" looks like the way to go (mappable ignition not allowed), as I am really worried about the breaking times and distances rising proportionally with weight.

    It's way easier to advance the cam I have than fitting a new one obviously, so which are your thoughts on that? Have someone done that and how does that really affect power?

    On the other hand, which kind of cam you suggest if I were to change it? Something around a Kent 234 or a Piper 285? Or a bit "more"?

    Thanks

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    adjusting cam timing doesn't always archive anything, a couple of engines i have tried to swing the timing on less power everywhere compared to the initial set up

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    Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    a couple of engines i have tried to swing the timing on less power everywhere compared to the initial set up
    That's what he wants but I think to loose 30hp by that method will be a bad idea ?


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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    He's only talking about having to lose 8hp to reduce the amount of ballast he has to carry to 50kg, i reckon advancing the cam timing and possibly using smaller chokes would be the way fwd here, it will improve mid range and reduce top end max power.

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    Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Yes I got confused somewhere.
    So dropping 10 bhp will allow a penalty of only 25kg I guess.


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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by wxneypar View Post
    Thanks for your ideas. I agree "less cam" looks like the way to go (mappable ignition not allowed), as I am really worried about the breaking times and distances rising proportionally with weight.

    It's way easier to advance the cam I have than fitting a new one obviously, so which are your thoughts on that? Have someone done that and how does that really affect power?

    On the other hand, which kind of cam you suggest if I were to change it? Something around a Kent 234 or a Piper 285? Or a bit "more"?

    Thanks
    i would of thought either of those two cams, if it hasnt already got one i would fit a very light flywheel, it wont help make any more power but will accelerate better, all in all at most circuits losing a bit of top end power and gaining midrange with a weight reduction will make the car faster, EXCEPT anywhere with a long straights and high top end speeds, to get big mph on a long straight, you need power almost nothing else matters.

    a few years ago i was racing a car with a lot of midrange grunt but no real top end power, it was fast everywhere except circuits with very high top speeds, cars i could beat easily on the shorter circuits and out grunt out of the twisty bits would just sail past on the long straights

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    50 kgs is a lot to add,what are you using and where are you putting it to get the weight up,as graham says i would lose the 10hp to get rid of the weight.
    then get it as low geared as you can,ie 4.9 or 5.1

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by turbospud View Post
    50 kgs is a lot to add,what are you using and where are you putting it to get the weight up,as graham says i would lose the 10hp to get rid of the weight.
    then get it as low geared as you can,ie 4.9 or 5.1
    I corner balanced the car while putting the weight, it was all inside the car as per the regulations. The car didn't behave that bad, but it was raining the whole day so I couldn't really compare the braking and cornering with how it was before



    Quote Originally Posted by Graham View Post
    i would of thought either of those two cams, if it hasnt already got one i would fit a very light flywheel, it wont help make any more power but will accelerate better, all in all at most circuits losing a bit of top end power and gaining midrange with a weight reduction will make the car faster, EXCEPT anywhere with a long straights and high top end speeds, to get big mph on a long straight, you need power almost nothing else matters.

    a few years ago i was racing a car with a lot of midrange grunt but no real top end power, it was fast everywhere except circuits with very high top speeds, cars i could beat easily on the shorter circuits and out grunt out of the twisty bits would just sail past on the long straights
    Thinking about all of this changes, but keeping the DCOEs , right?

    I think I can get a good copy of a 285 as a friend of mine brought one from over there and made some copies over original camshafts. It's getting harder to buy new items from the UK and have them sent here because of taxes, and difficult to find a good used one on ebay.

    It has a 1300 flywheel, and the car is geared 3.90. I have a 4.12 somewhere, it may be a good thing as the circuits are short, on the longest straight I don't think there's one car in my series that does 110mph.

    This is really interesting, I never thought I would find myself trying to get less hp from a car

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by wxneypar View Post
    I corner balanced the car while putting the weight, it was all inside the car as per the regulations. The car didn't behave that bad, but it was raining the whole day so I couldn't really compare the braking and cornering with how it was before





    Thinking about all of this changes, but keeping the DCOEs , right?

    I think I can get a good copy of a 285 as a friend of mine brought one from over there and made some copies over original camshafts. It's getting harder to buy new items from the UK and have them sent here because of taxes, and difficult to find a good used one on ebay.

    It has a 1300 flywheel, and the car is geared 3.90. I have a 4.12 somewhere, it may be a good thing as the circuits are short, on the longest straight I don't think there's one car in my series that does 110mph.

    This is really interesting, I never thought I would find myself trying to get less hp from a car
    does the rules allow full length sump guards,ie heavy ones but in the right places
    gearing wise if on 185/60/13, 7500 rpm, 1;1 top gear,
    a 4,9 ratio will make a massive differance,and skim the weight out of the 1300 flywheel

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    No type of sumpguard is alowed, if you have to add weight to the car, it has to be inside the cockpit.

    I'm using the tyre size, the rev limit and the top gear you mention, what would be the top speed of the car with 4.12? I'm running an english axle, not so many ratios here

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    i see,losing a few hp would be the way to go there,for gearing have a play with this

    http://westfield-world.com/gtc2.html

    a 4.1 diff is 118mph,a 4.9 would be 100mph,
    a 4.4 is also available but i appreciate those ratios might not be easy got in uruguay
    acceleration everywhere will be faster on the 4.9,nothing wrong in letting it run on the limiter for short bits of the staights

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    If using a 4.9 diff, would the usual stupidly low Ford 1st gear become an issue - effectively making it a 3 speed?

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    thats why the higher first gear gearkits are available,but as its a racecar it will still accerate faster everywhere on a 4.9 and first will proberly only see use at the start

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    4.9 diff 90 mph and 100 mph for 4.4 diff when fitted with 185/60 x 13 tyres @ 7.500 rpm according to the calculator on the Westfield site.

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    I agree on the 1st gear issue, but I don't use it anywhere except at the start of the race event with my 3.90 diff.

    A 4.12 diff I can get pretty easily from an anglia/cortina. The rest of them I don't have a clue of what they where factory fitted to...

    About the flywheel, how light can I go by machining the 1300 one?

    Thank you all for your help

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    if you look at the back of the flywheel it has a thick ring around its outer edge which stands well proud machine it away so the outer part is the same thickness as the thinner bit that joins it to the middle or better still buy a steel one

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Great, thanks for the advice.
    I'll see how much weight I can reduce on the 1300 flywheel, buying an steel one is not a bad option, but postage of such a thing overseas is more expensive than the flywheel itself.

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    if you have anglias out there im sure some of them have a 4.4 in them,dont know what model of anglia though

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    My 105e deluxe 997cc had one fitted on a small flange. I believe vans had them as well.

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Thank you guys, I think I'll create a new post under "My competition Car" so we can talk about this and other questions I have

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    Re: Historic Touring Racing Mk2 Escort

    Quote Originally Posted by wildo105e View Post
    My 105e deluxe 997cc had one fitted on a small flange. I believe vans had them as well.
    Yes indeed Anglia vans had the 4.4 ratio fitted, however they must be as rare as hens teeth nowadays. 4.9 was a competition cwp only unless someone knows otherwise.

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