New shells,, yes or no??? Mk1 and mk2

[old skool racer]

is there enough interest before i waste my time,, as i need to do some pretty serious negotiations to be allowed to take a pair of shells INTO china to get drawings done,
i have a choice of 2 large shell manufacturers, not the same plant as my wings but 50 times bigger, both make v high quality modern shells and have said that a simple shell like an escort is not a problem for them,,
so this is it boys,, yes or no,, and do it now while the currency is still way under valued,, china have it this way to aid foreign export but are under pressure by usa and europe to re value and that will drive the cost up biig time,
we have everything else,, just need shells, so come on,, get together, talk to your friends, and see if its worth it, ,,,,,, its a simple yes or no,,

[old skool racer]

the deposit scheme is like this, as u will be aware the tooling is masssive expensive for a fulll shell,, i dont want big companies on board cuz it will eventually drive the price up to hell, so i offer this,, i was thinkin 5 k a shell,, but those who would pay a deposit of 2k,,, maybe even 1.5k if i can raise more money myself, wil get the shells for 4 k,, is that fair,,, its bloody cheap for new shells if u ask me,,
im not messin the factory is exceptionally well equiped , and will do a fantastic job, and also dont think u have alot to loose,, u dont, i am puttin as much again of my own money into it, as i did in full with the wings,,
so who has balls and foresight and the willingness to get this done,,,,

[Montyman]

What you're proposing is admirable and the scene could certainly do with shells being available for both mk1 and mk2 models. However, I don't think most people that are in the scene for reasons of a hobby (i.e. attending shows, meets and enjoying a classic car as a second car as opposed to owners who go rallying or using the cars in some form of competition) have the sort of funds that you need spare enough to commit such a large deposit with no end date in sight as to when the finished article would be available. Many people patch up old shells in their spare time with a cheap mig welder, not as good or easy a solution as a newly constructed shell but still unlikely to cost them £5k as they don't count their own time as chargeable.

What sort of money do you need to raise to get the tooling made and how long do you think the project would take from its inception to shells being available?

[tibbs]

Hi John,
I think it's a great idea. Would save me a few quid if they were available now! Have a 1300 shell I paid €1400 for and needs another 3 / 4k work to get it right so a new shell at those sort of prices would def be the right way to go and it'd be right from day one. Best of luck with it, I've no doubt you'll get them done you're a determined man!! Just be sure and bring some sudocrem for the ring of fire with you next time you head over!!

[wildo105e]

I commend you on pushing this forward.

Rather than gettingthe big boys involved how about they put down an order for so many shells that way you keep the control. It's all the the rally prep places that are hoarding the shells for 100k cars that is forcing the price up and ensuring the individual keeps getting the rotters. surely they could stump up some deposits as it will be keeping their business's with a foreseable future and putting something back into the scene. They could have 5 shells for the cost of a BDA or millington.

[essyrwd]

This sounds very in trusting

These are just my ideas if i was doing the maths not making any statements or giving up or down just my thoughts as a mk1 nutter

My first thought =

So a 5k shell for :-

The rally boys to re-shell there smashed cars 5k is cheap in the scheme of things as to my knowledge they are like 25k upwards to build most of which would be engine box running gear etc etc .So after the smash up to be able to swap all the expensive bits straight into a 5k shell and be back in competition sounds good .As has be mentioned these boys are not your run of the mill enthusiasts that have a budget.The legal side of this as far vins and that goes wont matter any way who would know .

The enthusiast with the AVO RS ,models aging 5k sounds cheap to re-shell a 25k twin cam etc .They can use there vins and who would know, the only problem i see is most of the AVO boys are obsessed with the idea that its got to be original shell you know what i mean so that might not be so good .

5K to the person who is going to build an all out track day car and does not want to waste time restoring one with a 20K final budget might go for it .

Then there is a lot of us that just like to cut rotten old cars up Would they see the new shells as more of a KIT CAR something that anyone could build ,some of us are very proud of the time blood and sweat we have put into our cars and we normally think we will build one 3.5k total buildSo many would run a mile at spending 6.5k just for a painted bare shell .So for all your lightly modded 11L 13L Xl E GT might not be so good .

So only my thought but i recon 95% of your buyers to start off with will be the rally boys .Then perhaps after while if the price of the mk1s and mk2s keep going up then it might change .That said after looking at the cost of kit car chassis kits etc a 5k mk1 escort kit car sound quite reasonable ,but then you would have to do all the SVA stuff to deal with before it become a kit .
Also as some people do kits cars as small productions you then might have trouble with the boys at FORD :dunn


Again just food for thought and as a i am mk1 escort nutter it would be ignorant not to throw ideas about when some one such as yourself is going all out to help keep these old motors going .THANK YOU

[old skool racer]

if i get this to go ahead, i want to see the first pressings in 6 months from the time we decide to go ahead,,
i know it seems alot but if u look at replacement mustang shellls in us at 15000 dollars i think 5 isnt much at all,
i put 6 times that into makin the mould for grilles, the tooling for each shell is over the half million mark, but that wass a rough quotation without seein a shell,
i honestly thought it would be more, plus 1300 a shell to punch and assemble ,, plus shipping, etc, ur lookin at over a million for 300 shells, landed on uk soil,
2 k deposit,, since when did 2k become alot of money,, when we are talking 2k engines 2k spray jobs etc, for a brand new shell i think its worth the investment and the wait, and it gives the guys time to save the other 2 k,,
mark my words, if its not done like this, there will one day be somone doing it, and selling them for alot more,,
and dont come runnin to me saying i was right,,
nothing good is risk free, but thats the buzz and the ecitement of this, being involved from day 1, i can keep all involved informed of every step, and in the end u have what was thought impossible,
there are legalities about importing a shell into china first, and also i guess re importing to uk and ireland, but ur a smart lot, jesus there are drugs and people and guns smuggled in every day, whats wrong with a classic car bodyshell,
lets get the brains to work here, there is always more than one way to skin a cat,

[popuptoaster]

Are Ford not gonna have something to say about a load of Escort shells suddenly arriving on the market, havent they consitantly refused to allow anyone else to build up shells?

[old skool racer]

essy thank you,
all noted and understood,
yes i know its the rally boys who would find it easier to swallow,, as for bea kit car?? well is it or isnt it, not sure ,,??but i get where ur comin from,
also i do know there are loads who do like to build a rust bucket from scratch, but even those are gettin harder to find, and trust me, the day will come when none are to be found.
concourse boys will never accept a new shel so i dont care,
but also there are loads of guys with enough spares to build a car and cant find one,
we were payin 5 to 6 k for shells from oz,, that needed work, even for road cars,
so there are horses for courses i guess, and we cant please everyone,
also i believe there is a way to by pass all that red tape,, someon somewhere knows the real answer,,,,,,,,,

[old skool racer]

so why do the allow mustangs to be re made,??
and 2nd i will not be putting them up for general sale, as many as twice waht i propose have arrived from oz into ireland and as many more fronm germany and u still cant see them,,
so an extra few hundred will be like a drop in the ocean,
u order one, u get one, and u keep it to urself,
how many escorts have their vin still???
new top plates and thats gone,,
so who would know whats what,, except all who read this,, lol..

[Mac]

I'll be the first to put my hand up and say I'll pay the deposit for a MK1 shell.

But just doing the maths on half a million for the tooling just seem so, so cheap. There must be around 25-30 large pressings, then about 60-70 medium to small pressing to build each shell. So working on what you paid for the press tools for the wing, does this add up? If it does, i'd say you paid around the £15,000 mark for the press tools for the wing.

If I'm way under the mark, which I would say I am, whats going to happen when you get a car to china and the quote for the tooling suddenly doubles?

You've take deposits for 600 shells @ £2000 each and then you suddenly can't afford to continue with the project.

Have you thought about speaking to Express Panels, this could save alot of tooling cost, as they can already supply around 75% of the panels to build a shell. Maybe get the missing panels pressed in china and the shells assembled here in the UK or Ireland. Would save quote a bit of shipping costs, less import duty but of course you would have higher assembly costs.

Just something else to thinking about

[Dan]

i think it would be great if they were avaliable... at that sort of price it would a serious consideration, im looking to do mine towards the end of the year and ive priced up what i think it would need and it comes to about 2.5k... to have a brand new shell with modern rust proofing protection already there would mean i could have the car done in months rather than years, a massive bonus.

the only thing is, and i see this as your biggest stumbling block. there is no way id give you 2k without having a delivery date and a contract (to gurarantee it). for us hobieests, it is a fair old wedge and would buy me another car in a very good condition. obviously thats a complete nightmare for you as it will be hard to get a shedule in place without knowing quantities, not to mention the current climate means i might well need that 2k to live on even if i have it spare at the moment. the semi or proffessional competitors would find it much easier to put aside part of the years budget on a new shell than i would since i dont have a budget to speak of i think most of us 'enthusiasts' dont spend more than a grand a year keeping the car going so your essentially asking for 5 years of spend, which is a hell of a lot.

id say its worth looking into, speak to the people with the mini and mg repro shells. maybe you could produce the other bits of escorts that are hard to get hold of, which would mean the investment would be spread over a bit longer, you'd still get the tooling done and the money earned can be put back into the next peice... and thats if Ford UK will let you, which would be my first call as licences will need to be granted for a full repro shell in the same way the kit car people have for Stratos' etc.

but keep at it, the scene needs more people like yourself

[old skool racer]

i know it souds cheap, there ais also the assembly jig at over 60k per car and each car to press and assemble is near 1.5 k, in total 300 shells of each is over a million each,,
the wings had 14 tools and 4 jigs to be exact,
i have shown the cars and dimensions to the factory, dont forget we have front and rear panels for both, under wing kits for both, and a few smaller panels, like front x member, rad support panels, etc, and wings for both, all this has been factored in, i went to 2 different factories and got close to same price from both, and they were going on what it cost them to tool up for the other shells they make,
both these factories make their own tooling, whereas the wing factory didnt, and 17k wouldnt pay for the mould for the grille ,, never mind the wing presses,,
yes i was happy at the price too, as it seemed low, but both were very close to each other,so i guess they cant be too wrong,
i wont take deposits till i know exact prices, and if i start i finish, there is no running out of funds,,

[old skool racer]

mac,,
fine points,
yes could do that maybe,
make up a jig here and assemble here,, slower im sure and more costly too. but less hasslein other ways,
as for panels bein made there are few that are of use in a new shell, front and rear panels, slam panels, rad suprt, under wing kits, seat x member and front x member, outer and inner sill maybe, but floor would be one piece, as bulkhead and inner panel ,. plus allother inside panels and roof skin,
chassis and valence etc etc etc,
u mean take it home a s a jig saw puzzle,, and build it here????

[4drmatt]

Are Ford not gonna have something to say about a load of Escort shells suddenly arriving on the market, havent they consitantly refused to allow anyone else to build up shells?

I like to think that it's because they were fibrglass shells, and ford didn't like it

[old skool racer]

guys b4 u all start to worry,, remeber this,, quite a few euro car makers now have plant in china, and these very guys make the shells for them ,, inc vw, etc,
something about chinese manufactured cars,, like the nissan plant in uk,, remember,, so they know what they are doing,, its no back street plant,,

[mk1van]

how much of a shell would you get for 5k???? would the shell be an exact copy or modified in some way so no copyright issues arise with ford or have you been in touch with them???? seems like a cheap shell for 5k.....i think people would need to see one built before they outlay 5k so they know what to expect....would love to see one in both forms and i think 300 shells would be not enough....lol
on another note why dont you just get one thing done at a time...wings, doors and get some cash flow for yourself then maybe branch off for the shells....

[Mexicomark]

The other things worth considering is what shells do you build, keeping it breif & with going into exact date changes.
There are at least 5 different type 49 shells 6 if you include heavy duty service shells. Then there are the same again in Standard shells.

Mk2's there are 4 off the top of my head Early & late, standard & RS spec.

I'm just thinking of the guys that would be looking for the proper spec shell to reshell their existing car.
Otherwise are you just going to manufacture a service shell like ford supplied for reshelling car in period..??

Mark...

[POO SLINGER]

there is a fibreglass shell available from old ford autos, i don't know if what you are planning on doing is somthing similar but that means that there is somthing else on the market.

[alladdin]

very interesting thread.

[old skool racer]

simple answer mark,
i get the 2 best shells i can and copy them,, no other way,, this is again motorsport driven and those who just want an escort for the road, to use , abuse and enjoy,
not for purists because nothing will ever please them if henry didnt rub his todger on it first,,, and thats the way it is , a shell is a shell in todays language,, if ur lookin for hens teeth, do u really care if she was a white or brown hen.. be glad u found some teeth at all,,
as for coyright,, do ford give a toss, see how much of their other stuff is done,, did ford make one bit?? NO,,,
for 5 k i expect a full shelll minus boot and bonnet and wings. in rhd form, and no one asked anyone for a 5 k outlay, i said a deposit, and if u join the scheme its 4k,, those who come in after, its 5 k,, or should i make it 5.5 k, hhahaha.
1 k to begin,, 1 k when panels are punched, and final 2 k when car is delivered, as the meercat sais, SIMPLES,,

[smoov]

Think this is a great idea, and I would certainly be interested in getting involved if the quality is going to be right

[old skool racer]

its gonna be same as original, usin same grade steel, same thickness and same exact dimensions, jesus guys they can copy phones laptops, cameras, tvs, u name it, a couple of bits of bent steel are no problem, lol..

[Tristan]

Fair play John , I knew you'd get round to this eventually!

Guys , this man is a true enthusiast , and also a shrewd businessman , so I'd take his word for it that the product will be spot on .

Just a question John , will the shells be undercoated and primered , or what ?

[GB]

1 k to begin,, 1 k when panels are punched, and final 2 k when car is delivered, as the meercat sais, SIMPLES,,

Don't sound to terrible and well worth the gamble, I'd be up for that

[Mexicomark]

simple answer mark,
i get the 2 best shells i can and copy them,, no other way,, this is again motorsport driven and those who just want an escort for the road, to use , abuse and enjoy,
not for purists because nothing will ever please them if henry didnt rub his todger on it first,,, and thats the way it is , a shell is a shell in todays language,, if ur lookin for hens teeth, do u really care if she was a white or brown hen.. be glad u found some teeth at all,,

Yes I understand what you are saying, but you will still need to know what period your shell comes from as things like door handles inner & outer, striker plates, wiring looms, switches, fuel tanks etc....etc...etc.. are different on early & late Mk1's.
As I guess most people will have a donor car to build into their new shell. I can't see someone sourcing every last nut, bolt, clip, column, switches, etc idividually.

You will need the right period shell to match your donor vehicle. Even if people are willing to source individual parts to build from a new shell they will still need to know what period the shells come from.
Its no good having a 68 donor vehicle & a 74 spec shell as the majority of the parts will not swap over. Motorsport driven or not you still need all the bits to put the car together. With or without any of Henrys cheese on them.

I applaude what you are doing & look forward to seeing the wings when they arrive.

If the shells are motorsport driven as you say have you thought of pressing the floors with bigger tunnels as standard & fitting them with bigger inner rear arches as these are things that will need cutting out of standard shells.
You could also offer a bubble arched Mk1 shell if you are making rear quarters as you could change the tooling to suit, you would be able to press a standard rear quarter or one with a bubble arch in it. Same with the wings you already have standard & flared arched wings what's to stop you putting bubble arches in them.


Just noticed your location says sometimes in Birmingham... anytime you are in Birmingham give me a shout if you want to talk Escorts weekends are usually best.



Mark....

[old skool racer]

thanks tristan,,
and thanks mark,
ys i need input from so many people, as there will be lots i cant think about, but here how it is,,
as the tooling costs are so high it has to be one shell only of each type, i will pick the best 49 shell i can get and it will be a later one as the floor pans chassis are same,as early mk2 and interchangeable im sorry if this will be a prob but its the only way it can be done ,, all this was factored when i priced this, cuz i wanted to make it viable, do able and affordable, also individual panel sale has come ino play like quarters and inner wings etc, the sale of these is all clculated to keep the costs down lads,,
motorsport driven as in they are the large consumers of shells, but not to any specific mtorsport build as many will just want road cars,
i need from somone some assembly pics or cut aways , just to get a final concrete price,,
to put a bubble on the wings needs another new tool and its the large one too, not economicaly viable,, sorry mark,

[para144]

What kind of interest have the rally preparation companies shown so far?
They are the people who are importing used shells by the container load & will have money to guarantee an order

[muckerbarry]

A one shell fits all approach is the only economical way, there are too many shell combinations. As you said John you won’t be able to please everybody, and anybody who is seriously worried about originality won’t want a new shell anyway.

I remember a few years ago purchasing a new Ka shell from ford, it was to re-shell a very early Ka, the shell that ford supplied us had a few subtle changes, small differences like the windscreen washer jets being in the bonnet rather than the scuttle panel, certain bolt holes (for cosmetic stuff) in the wrong places etc, I’m not sure was this an export shell, or a slightly updated shell or what but this was the only shell available from ford. It was the same for escorts back in the day, if you wanted a new shell you had to make do with a type 49 shell.

Best of luck with this John, drop me a PM when you’re ready for investors and if I’ve the cash available I’d be interested in placing a deposit.

[Mexicomark]

I'm not saying build as many variations of a shell as possible, but you need to inform your investors what type of shell they will be getting so they can source parts or a donor vehicle to suit.
The last service shells available from ford for a Mk1 were on the Mk2 floor pan & were heavy duty / Export spec sport shells so were not really specific to any model.
Here's a couple of shell pics.






Mark....

[Graham]

The last service shells available from ford for a Mk1 were on the Mk2 floor pan & were heavy duty / Export spec sport shells so were not really specific to any model.

then surely you have just answered your own question!!!!!!!

[M11rf]

I think Mark was asking aloud... if he had thought about the different type of shells...

There are so many things to take into consideration with regards to the making of these shells, I'm sure everyones input is of some help

[AvantSE]

Very interesting thread, and about time someone had a crack at this.

If they were in production, I would not hesitate in buying one. As it is, I can't afford to lose £1-2K, or to put it down without knowing when I am likely to get the finished product.

But I wish you the best of luck - if it gets off the ground, I am sure it will be very successful.

[GavinR]

1 k to begin,, 1 k when panels are punched, and final 2 k when car is delivered

I'd be up for that

Put my name down on the deposit scheme for a Mk2 please

[old skool racer]

well thanks guys , and yes all input is good ,, man you should see the way this thread went on scottish old skool ,,, some weird people up there,,
i will take pointers and advice and help from any angle as this really isnt easy,,
but i had some real jokers on in that site, who dismissed it as total rubbish and as if i was talkin pish as they said, in fairness there were some good feedback too,,
but here at least its 100% constructive, so thanks to all here,,
john,
ps, two shells ,prob on the line of service shells, seat belt anchors and as much of the other bits as possible,,
its really the best i can do if cost is to remain within a budget,

[old skool racer]

oh mark,,
muchos gracias,,
was anyone here around in sth london in late 80s
i used to run a place called TJ MOTORSPORTS, wirth a barbados guy called tony who has a matt balck mk1, a common sight in cruise , palace and west wycham those days
just off coldharbour lane in brixton,
all dedicated to avo stuff, but we did alot with mk2 also,
just askin in case anyone remembers,
john.

[DarrenM]

This is very exciting and I hope you can pull it off.

I assume this will lead to the availability of EVERY panel being available new? Inner wings are the most obvious hard to find and expensive panel that will be selling well!

Most people would only want the correct spec (age) shell to restore a car but there are plenty who are just building for motorsport/track day or some sort of one off car that a late spec MK1 would be fine and any era MK2.

I have 2 early cars (1968) and the number of differences to a later car is amazing!

I think early and late 6 clock complete dash boards would be good sellers as well. It's the hopeful panel availability thats exciting for me.

[FOSSIE]

My understanding about the copyright problem here, is, that Ford stopped having a say in the matter 25 years after they stopped producing the shells... Now that's not a legally binding promise - but I'm fairly certain.

Also, in China, the term "copyright" refers to their right to copy stuff!

Anyway, John, you have PM

[jpblue]

Good on you for this.
Id be interested, certainly in the deposit scheme and ultimate discount. However, firstly I am waiting to see how the wings turn out. Too many times reproduction parts just dont quite fit right and require a small or large amount of fettling, I hope yours are different, they do look good so far. the problem I see with a full reproduction shell is all the little anomolies in pressings and new moulds add up to a possible abortion of a car, with no method of pre purchase check Id be concerned about what I am getting for my 4K, especially if in essance they are copies of a 30+ year old car, A photocopy of a photocopy. May not be a huge amount of money (what are replacement Mg,s Sprites going for) but to receive a twisted hulk of escortesque metal could be dissapointing.
Have you though about managing the deposit funds, refunds if you dont get 300, intrest, and what would shipping cost? or would that be in the total price.

Cheers,

JP

[Mac]

Has anyone actually got a full list of every individual panel on the escort? What is the total number, and which of these panels are currently available from sources in the UK. Me personally, I would be to get inner wings, quarter panels and the floor pans into production, get these on the market to help fund the manufacture of complete shells. These 9 panels, plus the roof skins, bulk head and boot floor must be around 75% of the cost of the tooling. Will take longer to get the complete shells on the market, but less risk on the money side.